Cerebus 1 a more valuable key than Hulk 181? Really Overstreet? Poll on Page 87 3 3

[bronze johnny]

4 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

What's the first appearance of Galactus? FF #48? or FF #49?

Everyone agrees it's FF #48, even though he only makes an appearance in the last panel. Just...like...Wolverine in Hulk #180. 

It is absolutely comical to claim Hulk #181 is his first App. It's not. It's just really collectible because it has that iconic cover, and his first full length story. If people want to pay a premium for that, that's great. But stop pretending it's Wolvie's 1st appearance.

It's a question for interpretation. FF 48 is the first part of a story titled "The Coming of Galactus." FF 48 has the first appearance of the Herald of Galactus. Galactus cannot be separated from his Herald for the purposes of the Galactus Trilogy. Yes, Galactus appears in a panel that fulfills his "Coming." He has arrived. You can look at a panel and see less if you want to separate it from the essence of a story if that's how you want to interpret Galactus' appearance in FF 48 and you have a right to do so. As for Wolverine, if Hulk 180 had a story about the"Coming of Wolverine," I'd be inclined to then agree with your defining the single panel appearance without looking at the story as his first. It's not. 

Yes, there are exceptions to your "single panel takes all rule."

Edited June 27, 2017 by bronze johnny

[PhilipB2k17]

1 hour ago, bronze johnny said:

It's a question for interpretation. FF 48 is the first part of a story titled "The Coming of Galactus." FF 48 has the first appearance of the Herald of Galactus. Galactus cannot be separated from his Herald for the purposes of the Galactus Trilogy. Yes, Galactus appears in a panel that fulfills his "Coming." He has arrived. You can look at a panel and see less if you want to separate it from the essence of a story if that's how you want to interpret Galactus' appearance in FF 48 and you have a right to do so. As for Wolverine, if Hulk 180 had a story about the"Coming of Wolverine," I'd be inclined to then agree with your defining the single panel appearance without looking at the story as his first. It's not. 

Yes, there are exceptions to your "single panel takes all rule."

A first appearance is just that, an "appearance." The first time the fully realized character appears in print, in a recognizable form. That's IH #180 for Wolverine. 

When you have to invent rules and stipulations, and explanations for why a first appearance isn't one, then the term has lost all meaning. 

 

[bronze johnny]

15 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

A first appearance is just that, an "appearance." The first time the fully realized character appears in print, in a recognizable form. That's IH #180 for Wolverine. 

When you have to invent rules and stipulations, and explanations for why a first appearance isn't one, then the term has lost all meaning. 

 

Then we might just as well count appearances in in house comic book advertisements as a character's first appearance. Action Comics 1 would not be the first appearance of Superman if we were to simply take an appearance as is without further definition- the reason why the vast consensus of comic book collectors, and comic book history itself, has defined Hulk 181 as the first appearance of Wolverine. 

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by bronze johnny

[WolverineX]

Do people think Cerebus will ever get popular again?  Or is it pretty much at its peak....

[Readcomix]

8 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

The long term prospects of a comic's value are really interesting. I remember when I first started collecting as a kid, the most valuable Comic was Marvel Comics #1. I know that sounds ridiculous now, but it was more valueable that Action #1 and Detective 27. Why? Because Marvel was hot and all the collectors put a premium on anything produced by them, even going back to the Golden age.

I remember thinking, at the time, even though I was just a kid, that it seemed weird that the 1st Appearance of Superman was not the most valuable comic in the world. Obviously, over time, people changed their opinions, and the hobby moved with it. I think that will happen with Hulk #181 eventually too. That comic is in a major bubble. I think it will pop. It's not the first appearance of Wolverine. Its not sustainable. Just like the Marvel Comics #1 bubble popped (relative to the great DC 1st Appearances, and Captain America #1), and like how Motion Pictures Funnies Weekly's bubble popped. And like how Whiz #2's bubble popped as Captain Marvel faded out of memory as a major character.

Wolverine will still be a popular and iconic character for decades. But, Hulk #180 will be more valuable, in the long run, than #181.

I thought you were going to rhetorically ask what will propel aardvark Conan in 20 years???

[Readcomix]

4 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

It's a question for interpretation. FF 48 is the first part of a story titled "The Coming of Galactus." FF 48 has the first appearance of the Herald of Galactus. Galactus cannot be separated from his Herald for the purposes of the Galactus Trilogy. Yes, Galactus appears in a panel that fulfills his "Coming." He has arrived. You can look at a panel and see less if you want to separate it from the essence of a story if that's how you want to interpret Galactus' appearance in FF 48 and you have a right to do so. As for Wolverine, if Hulk 180 had a story about the"Coming of Wolverine," I'd be inclined to then agree with your defining the single panel appearance without looking at the story as his first. It's not. 

Yes, there are exceptions to your "single panel takes all rule."

I don't get how everyone doesn't get tired of debating this. Yes, Wolverine appears in the story in 180. It's his first appearance in continuity. The market doesn't care, vis a vis 181 and its full story and classic cover. But for those who feel so strongly that the fact of the cameo will overtake 181 one day, it's a cheap enough hedge. And, like Galactus in FF48, it is a cool and powerful singular panel. Room for both Hulks in my collection.  

Not directed at you BronzeJohnny or anyone in particular, just quoting the most recent post in this part of the discussion (180/181).

[PhilipB2k17]

7 hours ago, Readcomix said:

I thought you were going to rhetorically ask what will propel aardvark Conan in 20 years???

Cerebus is so much more vast & complex than a Conan parody. Might as well as the same thing about Groo. 

 

[PhilipB2k17]

7 hours ago, Readcomix said:

I don't get how everyone doesn't get tired of debating this. Yes, Wolverine appears in the story in 180. It's his first appearance in continuity. The market doesn't care, vis a vis 181 and its full story and classic cover. But for those who feel so strongly that the fact of the cameo will overtake 181 one day, it's a cheap enough hedge. And, like Galactus in FF48, it is a cool and powerful singular panel. Room for both Hulks in my collection.  

Not directed at you BronzeJohnny or anyone in particular, just quoting the most recent post in this part of the discussion (180/181).

There are plenty of comics that "the market" valued at one point, then shifted later. I don't think #181 will ever be non-valuable. But at some point the bubble will burst on that book. 

[PhilipB2k17]

8 hours ago, Wolverinex said:

Do people think Cerebus will ever get popular again?  Or is it pretty much at its peak....

It depends on Dave Sim. He's currently putting out Cerebus in Hell. If, at some point, Sim allows the character to be used again by other creators, it may revive contemporary interest. Or if he's turned into a cartoon, etc. 

[PhilipB2k17]

10 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

Then we might just as well count appearances in in house comic book advertisements as a character's first appearance. Action Comics 1 would not be the first appearance of Superman if we were to simply take an appearance as is without further definition- the reason why the vast consensus of comic book collectors, and comic book history itself, has defined Hulk 181 as the first appearance of Wolverine. 

 

If Superman showed up in the last panel of, say, Detective comics 18, and was identified as Superman as an officially debuted character, it would be more analogous than an advertisement for Action #1. 

But Superman may be a special case given that he was literally the first superhero. So his 1st appearance is historic. 

Technically, Spider-Man's black costume debuted in Marvel Age, not ASM #252 or MTU #141. 

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by PhilipB2k17

[PhilipB2k17]

13 hours ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

I think time will tell and believe it's too soon to tell how it will shake out...

I do agree that something will happen with IH 180-182 and prices etc of which will hold; I think the best analogy is the FF 48-50, and based on that whichever you'd rather have of those is the way it'll shake out; even though it's only 6 years earlier. 

Just an observation  

I do think that Wolverine is more valued than Silver Surfer; but if 2.0's of IH 181 end up being $200-$250 like FF 48          HeAdS WiLl RoLl  hahhah

I think the value of #FF 48 is reviving mostly because of Galactus. And if they ever get the Surfer or Galavtus done right in films or TV (or into the MCU) that book will go way back up. 

But that book is another great example of my point. At one point 48 was much more valuable than 181. Now it's nowhere close. Times and tastes change. The popularity and importance of characters change. 

 

[Readcomix]

26 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Cerebus is so much more vast & complex than a Conan parody. Might as well as the same thing about Groo. 

 

I agree: exaggerating to make a point. Without Sim offering him up, he is likely to fade and be an expensive but illiquid key that many will not "get." 

[Readcomix]

26 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

There are plenty of comics that "the market" valued at one point, then shifted later. I don't think #181 will ever be non-valuable. But at some point the bubble will burst on that book. 

Most likely yes; I'm just saying it's an issue debated with endless appetite for an issue solved with an inexpensive hedge (a decent 180 too). 

[bronze johnny]

26 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

If Superman showed up in the last panel of, say, Detective comics 18, and was identified as Superman as an officially debuted character, it would be more analogous than an advertisement for Action #1. 

But Superman may be a special case given that he was literally the first superhero. So his 1st appearance is historic. 

Technically, Spider-Man's black costume debuted in Marvel Age, not ASM #252 or MTU #141. 

 

So now it's okay for you to define the parameters for what an appearance is? What happened to your axiom about an appearance being an appearance and how we shouldn't try to complicate things? Again, it comes down to interpretation and comic book collectors like myself and the history of this art form has already decided what Wolverine's first appearance is- Hulk 181. 

[PhilipB2k17]

6 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

So now it's okay for you to define the parameters for what an appearance is? What happened to your axiom about an appearance being an appearance and how we shouldn't try to complicate things? Again, it comes down to interpretation and comic book collectors like myself and the history of this art form has already decided what Wolverine's first appearance is- Hulk 181. 

First Appearance in continuity. 

[PhilipB2k17]

9 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

So now it's okay for you to define the parameters for what an appearance is? What happened to your axiom about an appearance being an appearance and how we shouldn't try to complicate things? Again, it comes down to interpretation and comic book collectors like myself and the history of this art form has already decided what Wolverine's first appearance is- Hulk 181. 

There is absolutely no dispute about Wolverine's first official appearance as a Marvel character in a Marvel story. It's Hulk #180.

If you are buying 181 because it's the first full Wolvie story and has a classic cover, great! If you're buying it because it's his 1st app, well....

[bronze johnny]

1 minute ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

First Appearance in continuity. 

Selective interpretation when it benefits your position. However, the correct interpretation requires that we define a first appearance by looking at the totality of circumstances in which that appearance is made- how the character makes the appearance and the role that character has in the story. One panel does not stand on its own without defining the context it's in. You can prove the great consensus of comic book collectors and historians wrong a few decades from now. 

 

[bronze johnny]

1 hour ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

There is absolutely no dispute about Wolverine's first official appearance as a Marvel character in a Marvel story. It's Hulk #180.

If you are buying 181 because it's the first full Wolvie story and has a classic cover, great! If you're buying it because it's his 1st app, well....

Official? Where is that word used in defining Wolverine's first appearance as Hulk 180? It is defined as his first appearance in cameo and collectors haven't valued this as much as a Wolvie's first full appearance. Hulk 181 has an iconic cover? I personally agree with you but where is that mentioned? Not sure if we are in the majority when it comes to calling the cover of 181 iconic. 

Edited June 28, 2017 by bronze johnny

[Lazyboy]

5 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

A first appearance is just that, an "appearance." The first time the fully realized character appears in print, in a recognizable form. That's IH #180 for Wolverine. 

So are you saying that Superman: The Man of Steel 17 (showing only Doomsday's fully covered arm) isn't Doomsday's first appearance or Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen 134 (showing only Darkseid's unusually depicted head) isn't Darkseid's first appearance? Because they clearly are, just like Incredible Hulk 180 is Wolverine's first appearance.

5 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

When you have to invent rules and stipulations, and explanations for why a first appearance isn't one, then the term has lost all meaning.

When you ignore how stories work, everything you say is meaningless. Appearances, first or otherwise, are not all equal.

Yes, Wolverine appears in Hulk 180, but it's a lame, last-panel teaser that was only included to entice readers to buy the next issue. It adds nothing to the first chapter and the scene is repeated at the beginning of the second issue of the two-part story.

Galactus has a presence in FF 48 that is far greater than his single depiction in the final panel.

I started a thread a little while ago about this general subject and nobody responded.

[PhilipB2k17]

10 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

So are you saying that Superman: The Man of Steel 17 (showing only Doomsday's fully covered arm) isn't Doomsday's first appearance or Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen 134 (showing only Darkseid's unusually depicted head) isn't Darkseid's first appearance? Because they clearly are, just like Incredible Hulk 180 is Wolverine's first appearance.

When you ignore how stories work, everything you say is meaningless. Appearances, first or otherwise, are not all equal.

Yes, Wolverine appears in Hulk 180, but it's a lame, last-panel teaser that was only included to entice readers to buy the next issue. It adds nothing to the first chapter and the scene is repeated at the beginning of the second issue of the two-part story.

Galactus has a presence in FF 48 that is far greater than his single depiction in the final panel.

I started a thread a little while ago about this general subject and nobody responded.

Wasn't there a whole thread on JO 134? 

when you are distinguishing between the first "cameo" and first "full" appearance of a character then you're just trying to justify why your copy of the latter is worth more.