Various Killing Joke page prices...

[comix4fun]

I remember seeing a pair of killing joke pages online priced at 4 or 6k in 2001.

 

If I only I knew then what I know now

 

Any prime Ditko ASM page I wanted for $5k.

 

Killing Joke pages for $5k

 

Prime Kirby pages for $5k

 

Romita ASM covers for $10k.

 

 

Don't get me started...

 

Scott

 

You and I could go back to 1991 instead of 2001....or even worse 1987 and make people really nauseous.

[stinkininkin]

I remember seeing a pair of killing joke pages online priced at 4 or 6k in 2001.

 

If I only I knew then what I know now

 

Any prime Ditko ASM page I wanted for $5k.

 

Killing Joke pages for $5k

 

Prime Kirby pages for $5k

 

Romita ASM covers for $10k.

 

 

Don't get me started...

 

Scott

 

You and I could go back to 1991 instead of 2001....or even worse 1987 and make people really nauseous.

 

Well, I started collecting in 1980, so you do the math. I told you not to get me started!

 

Scott

[desertdogg2006]

well as long as we have more newbies with stupid wads of cash burning a hole in there pockets. coming into the original art market looking at comic art as an investment like stocks or gold bullion. this type of market trend will be here to stay. so get use to it. the prices are not going down on the masters. adams. smith. steranko. Kirby. wrightson. etc. so while iam sure there are a lot more than 48 collectors who would kill for a killing page. there is just not enough to go around so the demand is for sure a heck of lot more than the supply.

 

that being said there is a ton of good art out there to be had. and it wont even cost you killing joke prices. but if you have 50 to 100 k laying around collecting dust why not.

 

 

[r100comics]

I remember seeing a pair of killing joke pages online priced at 4 or 6k in 2001.

 

If I only I knew then what I know now

 

Any prime Ditko ASM page I wanted for $5k.

 

Killing Joke pages for $5k

 

Prime Kirby pages for $5k

 

Romita ASM covers for $10k.

 

The history of this hobby and the comic hobby in general is that no matter how expensive something appears at any given moment in time, one should pay whatever it takes to get the piece/book that one wants at that time, because in the vast majority of cases it won't get cheaper over time.

 

This does not apply to overpayments for common comics where the purchaser badly underestimated the supply component of the valuation formula.

 

When will you learn ? Past performance is not an indicator of future growth.

 

 

[Grendel72]

I remember seeing a pair of killing joke pages online priced at 4 or 6k in 2001.

 

If I only I knew then what I know now

 

Any prime Ditko ASM page I wanted for $5k.

 

Killing Joke pages for $5k

 

Prime Kirby pages for $5k

 

Romita ASM covers for $10k.

 

The history of this hobby and the comic hobby in general is that no matter how expensive something appears at any given moment in time, one should pay whatever it takes to get the piece/book that one wants at that time, because in the vast majority of cases it won't get cheaper over time.

 

This does not apply to overpayments for common comics where the purchaser badly underestimated the supply component of the valuation formula.

 

 

Just out of curiosity, on the flipside, what OA has dropped in prices in recent years ? I believe some of Carl Bark's paintings dropped in value significantly from what it was bought for. I can't recall others.

[vodou]

Just out of curiosity, on the flipside, what OA has dropped in prices in recent years ? I believe some of Carl Bark's paintings dropped in value significantly from what it was bought for. I can't recall others.

Oh a lot has and even more has merely stood still (over time). I'll let others carry the torch for specifics. But something to remember is that the super-amazing (seems to everybody but me) KJ page that sold for $100k could re-sell (or trade, never forget trade where everybody can pretend they got the better end of the deal) for say $78k, representing a massive loss to the previous owner and yet still be a number most others would see as stratospheric. All the talk around here. How many can really put 78k down. Now. In cash. On the spot. Or even put it together in 30 days, 90 days, whatever? Right. So 78k, 100k, for most collectors...the same number. Outta reach. For that dude that paid $100k though, a suckass number for sure. And life goes on. Ya know?

[jjonahjameson1]

I remember seeing a pair of killing joke pages online priced at 4 or 6k in 2001.

 

That sounds about right. During that time, Joe Pruett was selling Bolland's artwork and he mentioned he was going to visit Bolland, who had recently discovered a box of art (hidden in the back of a closet?) and was bringing it back for sale.

 

Joe returned with the following:

 

-3 Killing Joke pages, including the splashy page with Batman in the Batmobile, a page with Batman, and I don't recall the content of the other

-Several Animal Man covers

-Several Animal Man cover prelims

-Several Wonder Woman cover prelims

-Several Invisibles cover prelims

-Green Lantern 127 cover

-all three Tales of the GL Corps cover

-a few miscellaneous items I can no longer remember.

 

The Killing Joke pages were $5K each, the splashy page was $8K.

To make a long story short, I had $5K burning a hole in my pocket and bought

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

-3 Animal covers

-2Animal cover prelims

-3 Wonder Woman cover prelims

-2 Invisibles cover prelims

-all 3 Tales of the Green Lantern Corps covers

 

Sigh, hindsight is 20/20, but that being said, every cover was a winner, and the prelims were very nice, too.

[vodou]

I believe some of Carl Bark's paintings dropped in value significantly from what it was bought for.

Not my area of expertise except as a casual observer, but I think looking at the rise and fall of Steve Geppi...it may be more than coincidence that chart curve overlays perfectly the rise and fall of Carl Barks Disney paintings.

[heartened]

Just out of curiosity, on the flipside, what OA has dropped in prices in recent years ? I believe some of Carl Bark's paintings dropped in value significantly from what it was bought for. I can't recall others.

Oh a lot has and even more has merely stood still (over time). I'll let others carry the torch for specifics. But something to remember is that the super-amazing (seems to everybody but me) KJ page that sold for $100k could re-sell (or trade, never forget trade where everybody can pretend they got the better end of the deal) for say $78k, representing a massive loss to the previous owner and yet still be a number most others would see as stratospheric. All the talk around here. How many can really put 78k down. Now. In cash. On the spot. Or even put it together in 30 days, 90 days, whatever? Right. So 78k, 100k, for most collectors...the same number. Outta reach. For that dude that paid $100k though, a suckass number for sure. And life goes on. Ya know?

 

I think there are more people than you think. We are always surprised when people spend more than we could/would spend, but it doesn't change the fact that just because we don't know who/where they are doesn't mean they don't exist. Just perhaps a different circle. You talk about 100K just like many of us talked about 10K back in the day, and 1K even earlier.

 

 

[heartened]

I remember seeing a pair of killing joke pages online priced at 4 or 6k in 2001.

 

That sounds about right. During that time, Joe Pruett was selling Bolland's artwork and he mentioned he was going to visit Bolland, who had recently discovered a box of art (hidden in the back of a closet?) and was bringing it back for sale.

 

Joe returned with the following:

 

-3 Killing Joke pages, including the splashy page with Batman in the Batmobile, a page with Batman, and I don't recall the content of the other

-Several Animal Man covers

-Several Animal Man cover prelims

-Several Wonder Woman cover prelims

-Several Invisibles cover prelims

-Green Lantern 127 cover

-all three Tales of the GL Corps cover

-a few miscellaneous items I can no longer remember.

 

The Killing Joke pages were $5K each, the splashy page was $8K.

To make a long story short, I had $5K burning a hole in my pocket and bought

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

-3 Animal covers

-2Animal cover prelims

-3 Wonder Woman cover prelims

-2 Invisibles cover prelims

-all 3 Tales of the Green Lantern Corps covers

 

Sigh, hindsight is 20/20, but that being said, every cover was a winner, and the prelims were very nice, too.

 

I bought the Batman page ....

 

[tth2]

I remember seeing a pair of killing joke pages online priced at 4 or 6k in 2001.

 

If I only I knew then what I know now

 

Any prime Ditko ASM page I wanted for $5k.

 

Killing Joke pages for $5k

 

Prime Kirby pages for $5k

 

Romita ASM covers for $10k.

 

The history of this hobby and the comic hobby in general is that no matter how expensive something appears at any given moment in time, one should pay whatever it takes to get the piece/book that one wants at that time, because in the vast majority of cases it won't get cheaper over time.

 

This does not apply to overpayments for common comics where the purchaser badly underestimated the supply component of the valuation formula.

 

When will you learn ? Past performance is not an indicator of future growth.

 

 

It`s simple logic. Everyone always talks about prices 20 years ago.

 

20 years from now, today will be 20 years ago.

 

So everyone should just stop quibbling about prices, because 20 years from now today`s prices will seem as cheap as the prices from 20 years ago do today.

[vodou]

Just out of curiosity, on the flipside, what OA has dropped in prices in recent years ? I believe some of Carl Bark's paintings dropped in value significantly from what it was bought for. I can't recall others.

Oh a lot has and even more has merely stood still (over time). I'll let others carry the torch for specifics. But something to remember is that the super-amazing (seems to everybody but me) KJ page that sold for $100k could re-sell (or trade, never forget trade where everybody can pretend they got the better end of the deal) for say $78k, representing a massive loss to the previous owner and yet still be a number most others would see as stratospheric. All the talk around here. How many can really put 78k down. Now. In cash. On the spot. Or even put it together in 30 days, 90 days, whatever? Right. So 78k, 100k, for most collectors...the same number. Outta reach. For that dude that paid $100k though, a suckass number for sure. And life goes on. Ya know?

 

I think there are more people than you think. We are always surprised when people spend more than we could/would spend, but it doesn't change the fact that just because we don't know who/where they are doesn't mean they don't exist. Just perhaps a different circle. You talk about 100K just like many of us talked about 10K back in the day, and 1K even earlier.

 

My point wasn't specific numbers of collectors or prices but that terms like overpriced, underpriced, high, low, deal, steal, ripoff, stupid money, etc are all relative to the position of the players involved...directly and bystanders too. Anybody around here going to care if that $38m Ferrari GTO that just sold only goes for $33m or break even nominally in 10 years? No. Because this is an art board not a car board, and I'd be really surprised if anybody here has anything like $33m to throw at a (very very nice) car. Millionaires generally don't care about the price of gasoline, if they even fill their own tanks. And billionaires don't generally care about anything millionaires do. And neither probably frets (much) over a $20k hit (or gain) on a $100k piece of funnybook art. But most of us would not be happy. So to think everything goes up, always, that time will always bail out the bad purchase..NO. That just isn't true. Timing it for fun and pleasure? Who knows on that, a very individual analysis there with all the bias any given individual may have. Some bulls, some bears, a fair number agnostic here and elsewhere. Talking where we've been, are and are going is always fun speculation. But tth saying 20 years ago is the same as 20 years from now...aw c'mon! I've got plenty of sh.t I bought 15 years ago that I'd be lucky to get out of at break even, which is very much a loss of purchasing power. I doubt another five years of 'time' will be any more generous either. Another twenty...maybe? .

[Garf]

I remember seeing a pair of killing joke pages online priced at 4 or 6k in 2001.

 

If I only I knew then what I know now

 

Any prime Ditko ASM page I wanted for $5k.

 

Killing Joke pages for $5k

 

Prime Kirby pages for $5k

 

Romita ASM covers for $10k.

 

The history of this hobby and the comic hobby in general is that no matter how expensive something appears at any given moment in time, one should pay whatever it takes to get the piece/book that one wants at that time, because in the vast majority of cases it won't get cheaper over time.

 

This does not apply to overpayments for common comics where the purchaser badly underestimated the supply component of the valuation formula.

 

When will you learn ? Past performance is not an indicator of future growth.

 

 

It`s simple logic. Everyone always talks about prices 20 years ago.

 

20 years from now, today will be 20 years ago.

 

So everyone should just stop quibbling about prices, because 20 years from now today`s prices will seem as cheap as the prices from 20 years ago do today.

 

As long as the base of collectors isn't getting greyer and fans of movies aren't more interested in props.

[delekkerste]

So everyone should just stop quibbling about prices, because 20 years from now today`s prices will seem as cheap as the prices from 20 years ago do today.

 

I'm not saying that prices can't be higher 20 years from now, but will prices today look as cheap 20 years from now as prices from 20 years ago do today? I think whatever your view of the future course of this hobby is, there is virtually no chance of that starting at today's levels vs. the mostly 3 and 4 figure levels of 20 years ago. The hobby is simply at a different stage of development now versus back then (pre-Internet for most people, pre-eBay, pre-Heritage, pre-Comiclink, pre-CAF), and the course of future prices, however it may unfold, will reflect that.

[vodou]

I'm not saying that prices can't be higher 20 years from now, but will prices today look as cheap 20 years from now as prices from 20 years ago do today?

And if you ask many, if not almost all, of the old-timers that were active 20-30 years ago (and even earlier) they will tell you, great art no matter the price was always a stretch. Always. What that's telling you is that disposable incomes and art prices tend to move together.

 

Here's a fun one. Cannot remember the exact piece, but read a few months back the story of one of the big Picassos that came to market early 2000s. It was bought just after WWII, say 1946 or 47 for $7000...yep, a lotta dough back then, stayed in the family and sold 55 years later (talk about buy and hold for the long run!) for...$40m. So there you go. But always a stretch. Always.

[comix4fun]

I'm not saying that prices can't be higher 20 years from now, but will prices today look as cheap 20 years from now as prices from 20 years ago do today?

And if you ask many, if not almost all, of the old-timers that were active 20-30 years ago (and even earlier) they will tell you, great art no matter the price was always a stretch. Always. What that's telling you is that disposable incomes and art prices tend to move together.

 

Here's a fun one. Cannot remember the exact piece, but read a few months back the story of one of the big Picassos that came to market early 2000s. It was bought just after WWII, say 1946 or 47 for $7000...yep, a lotta dough back then, stayed in the family and sold 55 years later (talk about buy and hold for the long run!) for...$40m. So there you go. But always a stretch. Always.

 

 

Wow, $7k was huge money in 1946.....adjusting for inflation it's nearly $90,000.

 

Every great piece I've picked up was a big stretch at the time. I agree.

I remember feeling absolutely stupid for paying the prices I did 15-20 years ago for certain pieces. I never would have imagined they'd be 20-50 times that value today.

[Jesusjon]

Just to chime in from the film side, there are already a chorus of industry folks who believe that there are too many comic book movies being produced, and that we will enter into a cycle of diminishing returns. DC has had little success with duplicating Marvel's "universe building" and Sony is trying the same approach with the Spideyverse. The next 6-8 years will be telling for comic book movies, and our hobby as well down the line. Not everything the studios try will work.

 

The theory that in 20-30 years there will be just as many avid collectors of this stuff with just as much disposable income is just a theory. How much of this stuff will be worth something and how much will be worth nothing? If comic book films become a fad and are overdone, that could certainly have an impact. For some, their OA represents a chunk of their investment portfolio, and it will be cashed in down the line. Not only will they sell, but they won't be buying either.

 

When folks eventually tire of the Walking Dead series, will the volume of pages selling at today's prices still be in demand, or will they be less desirable?

 

The A Grade stuff may certainly continue to escalate, but maybe not even all of it. Who can say? But as far as Killing Joke pages, it seems that will always be a pinnacle of the hobby. I would certainly feel safer with 1 100K Killing Joke page than 100K in Walking Dead art.

 

JH

[vodou]

Picasso's Le Reve is well-known to most of us I think, it's the one that Wynn put his elbow through that soured the sale to Steve Cohen a number of years back. Then the insurance fight began, and eventually it was repaired and sold to Cohen after all. For some reason I didn't remember that my story, which also had dates and some other facts close but wrong, was about this one. Thought it was a lesser known Picasso. And this from something I'd read mere weeks ago. Old age...hoo-hah! Oh well, it was bugging me, had to dig up the full story. And here it is:

 

Le Rêve (The Dream in French) is a 1932 oil painting (130 × 97 cm) by Pablo Picasso, then 50 years old, portraying his 24-year-old mistress Marie-Thérèse Walter. It is said to have been painted in one afternoon, on January 24, 1932. It belongs to Picasso's period of distorted depictions, with its oversimplified outlines and contrasted colors resembling early Fauvism.

 

The erotic content of the painting has been noted repeatedly, with critics pointing out that Picasso painted an erect , presumably symbolizing his own, in the upturned face of his model.

 

Le Rêve was purchased for $7,000 in 1941 by Victor and Sally Ganz of New York City. This purchase began their 50-year collection of works by just five artists: Picasso, Jasper Johns, Robert Rauschenberg, Frank Stella, and Eva Hesse. After the Ganzes died (Victor in 1987 and Sally in 1997), their collection, including Le Rêve, was sold at Christie's auction house on November 11, 1997. Le Rêve sold for an unexpectedly high $48.4 million, at the time the sixth most expensive painting sold (tenth when taking inflation into account). The entire collection set a record for the sale of a private collection, bringing $206.5 million. The total amount paid by the Ganzes over their lifetime of collecting these pieces was around $2 million.

 

The buyer who purchased Le Rêve at Christie's in 1997 appears to have been the Austrian-born investment fund manager Wolfgang Flöttl, who also briefly held Van Gogh's Portrait of Dr. Gachet in possession in the late 1990s. In 2001, under financial pressure, he sold Le Rêve to casino magnate Steve Wynn for an undisclosed sum, estimated to be about $60 million.

 

from: http://www.pablopicasso.org/the-dream.jsp

[delekkerste]

And if you ask many, if not almost all, of the old-timers that were active 20-30 years ago (and even earlier) they will tell you, great art no matter the price was always a stretch. Always. What that's telling you is that disposable incomes and art prices tend to move together.

 

This is an argument that Tim often cites, but I think it is only partially true. No doubt, prevailing prices always seem high - if they didn't, and prices seemed chronically cheap, prices would quickly adjust upwards until that was no longer the case. However, 20-30 years ago, the limits/barriers were largely psychological as opposed to financial - no one had ever paid $500, $1K, $2K, $5K, $10K for such-and-such before, so these prices seemed high. But, were they really? Your $7K Picasso in 1946-47 could, theoretically, have been bought by many people (like Chris said, it's about $90K in 2014 dollars - expensive, yes, but not completely out of reach). But, with enough years of price appreciation outstripping income growth, the number of people who can afford to beg, borrow or steal $40 million for one today has whittled down to a very small number indeed. $40 million vs. $90K - clearly income growth is only part of the equation! At this point, we have not only achieved price discovery, we have achieved price discrimination.

 

The Mile High Action #1 famously sold for a then-outlandish $25K some 30-odd years ago. Crazy! But, again, $25K for a comic book, even the best one in existence, was largely a psychological barrier; numerous people could have theoretically scraped together $25K (about $60K in 2014 dollars). Nowadays, with that book feted to be worth $5 million-plus (just slightly outstripping income growth and inflation, wouldn't you say?), the barrier is as much financial as psychological. Heck, the better question is probably, "is there even a psychological barrier anymore?" Seems like nowadays, people are bulled up about the MH Action #1 (or insert whatever vastly appreciated asset of your choosing here, including OA) as a great investment...even if they themselves can no longer afford it! My, we really have come full circle, haven't we?

 

Chris says that some of the art he bought back in the day has appreciated 20-50 fold. People who got in earlier than him have seen even bigger increases. Correlated with income growth? Yes. But outstripping it by literally more than an order of magnitude. So, bottom line, I don't believe in linearly extrapolating the experience of the past 20-30 years into the future, because at some point, the mathematics catch up for those who believe that only psychology matters.

[delekkerste]

At this point, we have not only achieved price discovery, we have achieved price discrimination.

 

PRICELINE DISCRIMINATOR!!

 

Sorry, just had to blurt that out.