Charge Backs, eBay, and Paranoia

[Jay1982]

Let's call this what it is. More overreach to protect the stupid and ignorant in an entitled world.

 

All started with the dumb who spilled McDonalds coffee on herself, sued, and won.

 

 

This sums up society to a tee. That case created this slippery slope where the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons of the world feel that their lack of intelligence and responsibility is an avenue for the world to owe them.

 

[Junkdrawer]

Best protection is to sell small ticket items $500 and under. You will be avoided by scammers due to the fact that they only have really 1 shot at pulling off the old "return the empty box" play. So the won't sell out cheap, they'll want to go for thousands. EBAY will never let the same situation happen repeatedly. Sure they can change names, IPs etc. but not worth beating a seller for under 500.

[Davenport]

There are so many "what if this" and what if that".... Looks like many of you are looking at the worst case scenario and going off on it. I know many of us can recall some bad experience on Ebay, just like we can call up occasional bad experiences with everything else we do in life. Geez, I know there is the potential for abuse here but it sounds as if many of you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Well, I guess that is in people's nature, so go at it guys.....

I started the thread to get a better overall sense of things as they stand now. Concerns being threefold...

 

* There's been more than a few horror stories posted over the last few years.

 

* Business has trended towards more and more legalese. While legalese solidifies systems, it also clarifies scenarios ripe to be gamed. Gaming systems is also a trend.

 

* Selling to use the money may inadvertently invite a timebomb situation, never knowing if or when it might go off. Manageable for those flush with cash, but potentially devastating for others. Depending on the timing and unexpectedness.

 

So, yeah, irrational fears are just that. But trying to broaden awareness and gain some understanding of what's happening right now (vs. outdated memories) isn't a waste of time.

[Mijael.Levy]

I am sure we will find a better method than paypal

[Park]

Let's call this what it is. More overreach to protect the stupid and ignorant in an entitled world.

 

All started with the dumb who spilled McDonalds coffee on herself, sued, and won.

 

 

This sums up society to a tee. That case created this slippery slope where the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons of the world feel that their lack of intelligence and responsibility is an avenue for the world to owe them.

 

 

 

Except that case has been spun around from what actually happened.

 

Mcdonalds was wildly negligent and then acted like a bunch of scumbags.

 

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

 

The sense of self entitlement in society is alarming but it certainly didn't come from this case.

[fastballspecial]

The headaches keep piling up. Ive been on ebay for well over 10 years and this just looks like a big problem coming.

 

I think this might finally tip the scale for some sellers to leave.

 

How does Amazon handle returns is the window that wide?

 

[BassGMan]

There are so many "what if this" and what if that".... Looks like many of you are looking at the worst case scenario and going off on it. I know many of us can recall some bad experience on Ebay, just like we can call up occasional bad experiences with everything else we do in life. Geez, I know there is the potential for abuse here but it sounds as if many of you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Well, I guess that is in people's nature, so go at it guys.....

I started the thread to get a better overall sense of things as they stand now. Concerns being threefold...

 

* There's been more than a few horror stories posted over the last few years.

 

* Business has trended towards more and more legalese. While legalese solidifies systems, it also clarifies scenarios ripe to be gamed. Gaming systems is also a trend.

 

* Selling to use the money may inadvertently invite a timebomb situation, never knowing if or when it might go off. Manageable for those flush with cash, but potentially devastating for others. Depending on the timing and unexpectedness.

 

So, yeah, irrational fears are just that. But trying to broaden awareness and gain some understanding of what's happening right now (vs. outdated memories) isn't a waste of time.

 

It is great that you started this thread. Good topic! I was just saying that in this case I think that fear and paranoia is a bigger problem than the new policy. For me, a MUCH bigger problem with Ebay had nothing to do with fear, but an actual change that affected us all. That is when Ebay went to the flat 10% final value fee for all items sold, rather than a declining tier for more expensive items. I don't mind paying a dollar fee for selling a $10 book, but a $100 fee for selling a $1,000 book just seems very excessive. That is why I rarely ever sell anything of value on Ebay anymore, that fee is just too much, not to mention another 3% to PayPal. Forget it!

[rjrjr]

There are so many "what if this" and what if that".... Looks like many of you are looking at the worst case scenario and going off on it. I know many of us can recall some bad experience on Ebay, just like we can call up occasional bad experiences with everything else we do in life. Geez, I know there is the potential for abuse here but it sounds as if many of you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Well, I guess that is in people's nature, so go at it guys.....

I started the thread to get a better overall sense of things as they stand now. Concerns being threefold...

 

* There's been more than a few horror stories posted over the last few years.

 

* Business has trended towards more and more legalese. While legalese solidifies systems, it also clarifies scenarios ripe to be gamed. Gaming systems is also a trend.

 

* Selling to use the money may inadvertently invite a timebomb situation, never knowing if or when it might go off. Manageable for those flush with cash, but potentially devastating for others. Depending on the timing and unexpectedness.

 

So, yeah, irrational fears are just that. But trying to broaden awareness and gain some understanding of what's happening right now (vs. outdated memories) isn't a waste of time.

 

It is great that you started this thread. Good topic! I was just saying that in this case I think that fear and paranoia is a bigger problem than the new policy. For me, a MUCH bigger problem with Ebay had nothing to do with fear, but an actual change that affected us all. That is when Ebay went to the flat 10% final value fee for all items sold, rather than a declining tier for more expensive items. I don't mind paying a dollar fee for selling a $10 book, but a $100 fee for selling a $1,000 book just seems very excessive. That is why I rarely ever sell anything of value on Ebay anymore, that fee is just too much, not to mention another 3% to PayPal. Forget it!

 

If I had my own auction site, I would charge for exactly what cost me the operator money, a small fee for every bid. I don't know what the fee would be, but if an auction received 10 bids, that auction would cost the seller more than an auction that received 4 bids. The cost of the item is immaterial.

 

The reason it costs more on eBay is because of the protections they have. Guaranteeing a $1000 book costs them more than guaranteeing a $100 book when things go bad. They have paid out of pocket sometimes and that smarts when a high valued sale goes wrong.

[Sensei Ryan]

All started with the dumb who spilled McDonalds coffee on herself, sued, and won.

 

 

Have you ever seen the HBO documentary 'Hot Coffee' on tort reform? If not I'd recommend watching it. It may give you a different perspective on the issue.

 

In other news, when is this new rule going to begin on eBay? Has it already started?

[Davenport]

In other news, when is this new rule going to begin on eBay? Has it already started?

The change is to Paypal, not eBay per se. The notice stated: ...updates to our User Agreement that go into effect November 18, 2014

 

Followed up with: If you use PayPal after the date these changes become effective, we will take that usage as your consent to the changed terms.

 

In my mind Paypal is a Bank. And this is saying you could deposit a check drawn on Paypal and be on your way thinking their check cleared. But with this new reality up to six months later there's a potential their check didn't fully clear. They may request that money be returned.

 

That's the deal as I understand it.

 

Imagine someone knocking on your door right now. They want their $200 back on a garage sale item from six months ago. Like that. Any transaction. Any amount. Up to six months. And you agree to it by accepting Paypal.

[Sensei Ryan]

The concept of this policy change sounds ridiculous, IMO. But does this mean that eBay could go with an alternative form for accepting payments with possibly a different return policy (like the new iPay from Apple)? Or will eBay/Paypal continue their linked arrangement of accepting payments? I thought with their recent split that a new system for accepting payments could be in the works...

[H0RR0RSH0W]

So, If I was a complete scumbag I could buy a new gaming system and a bunch of games and play the poo out of them for 6 months and then return everything for a nice tidy refund?

(full disclosure: I haven't played a game since Resident Evil Code Veronica like a million years ago, so I wouldn't do that even if I was a scumbag. I just figured an example non comic related was in order)

This could really mess some sellers up. wow.

Or wait! Don't those new systems come out and are like $500+ and then after a few months they go down to $200- and are available all over the place? What's to stop people from paying the crazy high initial price, get a refund 5 months later, and then just buy the same X-box or playstation for hardly anything somewhere else after the initial price increase? Any gamers have insight?

For the most part you will see system prices do that yes. The exception I can think of is the PS3 realease where they were under-produced and the system was selling for multiples for a while, until supply caught up with demand. So if you were the hypothetical scumbag that you are saying yes you could do that. Thats just retail nowadays

[H0RR0RSH0W]

I worked for Macy's Department stores for about 10 years and although I was not standing behind a register I cannot count the number of times I saw merchandise returned in such a manner. Shoes with the tread worn off, garments that were basically defiled, and if they had a receipt they could get a refund with blinding speed , no questions asked. I think it matters here because the individual sellers have to eat the refund,on potential here-say. I have dealt with eBay and my take is they tell you either love it or leave it. If you do not like it ;tough, go somewhere else. My recollection of why big companies do this is as response/tactic to work against the competition. 180 days is insane but you will not see me on eBay. One more seller/buyer policy that *socks*.

[Zack1973]

I haven't sold on Ebay since the first ridiculous changes back in early September, not worth the headache of someone bidding having an hour to change their mind, or demand a refund a month later. I might consider going back but to me the only way I would want payment to sell now would have to be Western Union Pick up, this way you receive your funds same day without the hassle of all these return policies. Just MHO

[Jay1982]

Let's call this what it is. More overreach to protect the stupid and ignorant in an entitled world.

 

All started with the dumb who spilled McDonalds coffee on herself, sued, and won.

 

 

This sums up society to a tee. That case created this slippery slope where the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons of the world feel that their lack of intelligence and responsibility is an avenue for the world to owe them.

 

 

 

Except that case has been spun around from what actually happened.

 

Mcdonalds was wildly negligent and then acted like a bunch of scumbags.

 

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

 

The sense of self entitlement in society is alarming but it certainly didn't come from this case.

 

Yeah, I read your post after I posted my last reply. Learning more about the details of the case I would agree with you on that.

 

I also agree with your post here; it might not be a direct cause. But with the misinformation about the case, I think people are using that as justification (not knowing all the facts) as a method of getting back something from a company that they might not be owed.

 

 

[mysterio]

One thought I had is that if the OP was reading the holiday return policy and not a permanent change? I know I got the heads-up on increasing my holiday return policy to 180 days, but I don't recall reading that this was an all-year thing.

Peace,

Chip

The update notice was received today. Here's a little broader context: (copy/paste) - - -

 

"And last but not least, you'll see some updates to our User Agreement that go into effect November 18, 2014. If you're interested in all the details, take a look at our Policy Updates Page. Here are the highlights:

 

• We're increasing the time for buyers to file merchandise disputes (Item Not Received and Significantly Not as Described) from 45 days to 180 days.

• We're extending buyer protection to include item not received claims for custom made products.

• Because PayPal Seller Protection and Buyer Protection policies may vary from country to country, we're adding language to clarify which country's policy applies when a seller makes a sale to a buyer outside of the U.S.

 

If you use PayPal after the date these changes become effective, we will take that usage as your consent to the changed terms."

 

"Significantly" not as described. I think some of us are being a little bit too paranoid. I know there are some scamming buyers out there but most of us buying and selling on Ebay are good honest people, so personally I am not going to be scared away from any listings due to fear that I may encounter one of the scammers out there. Just protect yourself as best you can and go about your business, as over the long run fear and paranoia is going to hurt you more than any scammer ever will.

 

Yep "Significantly" is the key word here . If we grade righ ,provide scans and pics and dont hide major deffects we will be protected .

 

It isn't a keyword at all. That comic book you sold to your unhappy buyer can easily be bent in half or otherwise significantly damaged to make a SNAD claim.

 

The word "significantly" in an of itself is inherently vague and can mean different things to different people. If a buyer doesn't think they got what they thought they were getting they just claim SNAD and get their refund. Do you think eBay is going to care if the buyer says they know how to grade? No, they'll just take the money out of your Paypal account and you can hope you get the same book back and that it was shipped halfway correctly so you get it back in decent shape.

[mycomicshop]

This is not good. What happens if I consign with mycomicshop? I've never done this before but I was thinking about it. Do I wait to get my money after the 180 days are up?

Mycomicshop is one of the possible alternatives to a scarier eBay.

I'd have to go back and read their terms but I think mycomicshop.com sends a check directly, unless you request they deposit to Paypal.

 

Part of the value we provide as a consignment service is insulating you from stuff like this. Your book sells (either on our site or through our eBay store), we ship it, and we issue payment to you usually within about 10 days of the purchase. If the buyer causes any problems after that--buyer's remorse, chargeback attempt, whatever--you don't have to worry about it. Once we pay you any problems from the buyer are our problem, not yours.

 

As far as payment methods, we can either mail you a check, pay your PayPal account, or deposit your payment as store credit into your mycomicshop account. Payments to you via PayPal are required to be categorized as paying for a good or service rather than payment to a friend, so PayPal will take their 3% fee from what you receive.

[Boba]

Safe Harbor what a joke it has become

[Boba]

This is not good. What happens if I consign with mycomicshop? I've never done this before but I was thinking about it. Do I wait to get my money after the 180 days are up?

Mycomicshop is one of the possible alternatives to a scarier eBay.

I'd have to go back and read their terms but I think mycomicshop.com sends a check directly, unless you request they deposit to Paypal.

 

Part of the value we provide as a consignment service is insulating you from stuff like this. Your book sells (either on our site or through our eBay store), we ship it, and we issue payment to you usually within about 10 days of the purchase. If the buyer causes any problems after that--buyer's remorse, chargeback attempt, whatever--you don't have to worry about it. Once we pay you any problems from the buyer are our problem, not yours.

 

As far as payment methods, we can either mail you a check, pay your PayPal account, or deposit your payment as store credit into your mycomicshop account. Payments to you via PayPal are required to be categorized as paying for a good or service rather than payment to a friend, so PayPal will take their 3% fee from what you receive.

This option is looking better and better every day

[darkstar]

Dear Darkstar,

 

Thank you for contacting PayPal.

 

The 180 timeframe is not a return policy, it is a timeframe under which the buyer can choose to file a dispute or claim for Non Receipt or if the item was received significant not as described. The buyer would need to have a significant reason why the item was not as described in order to be able to return something they received from you and would have to raise their claim within a reasonable timeframe after receipt of the item. Having the item for months and then the item developing a fault or being cheaper elsewhere would not be a valid reason to file such a claim and claims such as these would be denied if they were raised by a buyer.

 

 

 

Thank you for choosing PayPal.

 

Sincerely,

Lorelei

Protection Services Department

PayPal, an eBay Company