1st Teen Titans 3 3

[sfcityduck]

Yep, celebrating the 50th anniversary of the Teen Titans 6 months after the 50 year anniversary of BB 54, but prior to the 50th anniversary of BB 60, a point Ive made previously.

 

Very similar to the formation of the Teen Titans, after 54, but before 60.

 

You were shown a panel last night where DC clearly in plain English references 60 as the 1st appearance of the "original team". You can argue with me all you want, but how can you argue against that? Unless you have something that contradicts the two panels cited no reasonable person could reach your conclusion. There is ample evidence here for a label change.

 

Now you are being disingenuous. DC has designated 2014 as the 50th Anniversary of the Teen Titans. That is 1964-2014. The ONLY Teen Titans story to appear in 1964 was BB 54. The publication date of the anniversary compilation is not the "anniversary date," it is that 2014 is the 50th anniversary year. Arguments like the above make you look mercenary, not interested in truth.

 

The COVER of DC 100 Page No. 21 contradicts the notion that BB 54 is not a Teen Titans adventure. That cover depicts Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad under the heading "Teen Titans" in reference to their adventure in BB 54 which is reprinted therein. No one can seriously deny that the very first time DC reprinted BB 54, it identified that story as a Teen Titans story.

 

Again, you dodge the question: If the new $75 Teen Titans compilation coming out next month contradicts your position, are you going to ignore that also (as you ignore the first BB 54 reprint, Archive, and Showcase reprints) and claim DC is wrong?

 

 

[showcase22gr1959]

The market is what it is. Check out Superman Man of Steel 17 (doomsday cameo), but is valued much higher than Superman Man of Steel 18 (full doomsday). Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen 134 (Darkseid cameo) valued much higher than Forever People 1 (full Darkseid).

[sfcityduck]

Check Mate

 

All you have proven is that DC has not been consistent over the years. Twice editors in the 1973-1978 time period stated that BB 54 was not the first Teen Titans appearance. But, both before those statements were made, in 1972, and after, every reference since 1978, other editors and DC corporate have stated that BB 54 was the first appearance.

 

And the definitive 50th Anniversary compilation is coming out in less than a month. Soon we'll get to see what position DC takes right now and in honoring the Teen Titans on their most significant anniversary.

 

Will you agree with me that whatever position DC takes in its 50th Anniversary compilation is the final word?

[Silver]

The market is what it is. Check out Superman Man of Steel 17 (doomsday cameo), but is valued much higher than Superman Man of Steel 18 (full doomsday). Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen 134 (Darkseid cameo) valued much higher than Forever People 1 (full Darkseid).

 

That may not be the case long term, the trend is FP 1

[showcase22gr1959]

The market is what it is. Check out Superman Man of Steel 17 (doomsday cameo), but is valued much higher than Superman Man of Steel 18 (full doomsday). Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen 134 (Darkseid cameo) valued much higher than Forever People 1 (full Darkseid).

 

That may not be the case long term, the trend is FP 1

 

FP1 is so common...maybe folks want to root for FP1. No me.

[sfcityduck]

The market is what it is. Check out Superman Man of Steel 17 (doomsday cameo), but is valued much higher than Superman Man of Steel 18 (full doomsday). Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen 134 (Darkseid cameo) valued much higher than Forever People 1 (full Darkseid).

 

Good points. But I believe that Blazing and I both recognize that the market can be irrational and inconsistent. IH 180 valued much lower than IH 181. Some say its not a first appearance. And, frankly, for me the issue is not value (for blazing it is), it is story continuity and completion. If you want to be a Teen Titans completest, you have to own BB 54 as that's the origin and first appearance of the team. BB 60 is the second appearance of the team, first appearance of the name and Wonder Girl, and a great and desirable comic.

 

The only reason why I think anyone would want to talk down BB 54 as the Teen Titans first appearance (and exclude it from the canon of Teen Titans stories) is to boost the value of BB 60, and blazing readily admits that is what he's trying to do as he expands his hoard of BB 60s.

Edited October 24, 2014 by sfcityduck

[HighStakesComics]

Terrific point. The market ultimately decides which books are more key than others. With the Teen Titans coming to TNT(?) here shortly this is an important debate, and one Ive enjoyed participating in. One of the benefits of these chat boards is you can share thoughts and ideas. I don't believe the label will ever be changed on this one in spite of the mounting evidence to the contrary. Too many graded copies have changed hands under the false pretense BB 54 was the true 1st appearance. In the end, I am thankful a forum exists where we can have this discussion. Ill look forward to any clarity the 50th anniversary masterwork provides.

[showcase22gr1959]

The market is what it is. Check out Superman Man of Steel 17 (doomsday cameo), but is valued much higher than Superman Man of Steel 18 (full doomsday). Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen 134 (Darkseid cameo) valued much higher than Forever People 1 (full Darkseid).

 

Good points. But I believe that Blazing and I both recognize that the market can be irrational and inconsistent. IH 180 valued much lower than IH 181. Some say its not a first appearance. And, frankly, for me the issue is not value (for blazing it is), it is story continuity and completion. If you want to be a Teen Titans completest, you have to own BB 54 as that's the origin and first appearance of the team. BB 60 is the second appearance of the team, first appearance of the name and Wonder Girl, and a great and desirable comic.

 

The only reason why I think anyone would want to talk down BB 54 as the Teen Titans first appearance (and exclude it from the canon of Teen Titans stories) is to boost the value of BB 60, and blazing readily admits that is what he's trying to do as he expands his hoard of BB 60s.

 

I agree the market can shift, but BB54 has been established as the first Teen Titans for so the longest time. Unless the next herds and generations shift to BB60 which could happen, but I really don't think so. I feel the market is so speculative with so much shilling and hoarding causing bubbles on certain books, which can end badly.

Edited October 24, 2014 by showcase22gr1959

[Broke as a Joke]

As time goes by, current and future readers will only know the name/brand Teen Titans. They won't care about B&B 54 which happened to have a team up of 3 characters that don't even associate with Teen Titans anymore. To me 60 will end up being the more sought after book because that is the first time we ever see the name.

[akaSteveRogers]

 

The first reprinting of the story, the Official Teen Titans Index, the Silver Age Teen Titans Archive, the Teen Titans Showcase, and we're all waiting on the new 50th Anniversary (1964-2014) book (note BB 60 was 1965). Are you not reading the above posts?

 

I mean, what could be clearer than that DC has picked 2014 as the 50th Anniversary of the Teen Titans (being honored with graphic novel and new 50th anniversary compilation)? 1964-2014. Get it?

 

I don't think that including an important origin issue like BB54 in collected Teen Titans stories necessarily means that it has to be the first appearance.

 

Marvel Masterworks Defenders, Vol. 1 collects Sub-Mariner #34-35, and Marvel Feature #1-3, The Defenders #1-6.

 

Essential Defenders Vol. 1 collects Doctor Strange #183, Sub-Mariner #22, 34-35, The Incredible Hulk #126, Marvel Feature #1-3, The Defenders #1-14, and The Avengers #115-118.

 

First of appearance of the formal team is Marvel Feature #1 but in the volume 1 collections of Defenders stories, stories that lead to their formation and their team-up prior is included.

 

 

[Silver]

The market is what it is. Check out Superman Man of Steel 17 (doomsday cameo), but is valued much higher than Superman Man of Steel 18 (full doomsday). Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen 134 (Darkseid cameo) valued much higher than Forever People 1 (full Darkseid).

 

That may not be the case long term, the trend is FP 1

 

FP1 is so common...maybe folks want to root for FP1. No me.

 

It's not a rooting thing, it's just that fans are recognizing that FP 1 is the real first appearance of Darkseid, and the book is trending upward where as JO 134 has cooled.

[JTLarsen]

Guys, it doesn't matter what DC says or what footnotes they've written or what stories they include in which archives.

 

All of those things can change over time.

 

What can not change is when we first saw a group of teenage superheroes called "The Teen Titans." Prior to the publication of B&B 60, if I asked you whether there was a group of teenage superheroes called "The Teen Titans," you would've said no. You might very helpfully point me to B&B 54, but only after the publication of B&B 60 could you have said, "Yeah, of course there's a group of teenage superheroes called 'The Teen Titans,' they are both groovy and mod."

 

What anyone writes after the fact can't change that.

[akaSteveRogers]

Will you agree with me that whatever position DC takes in its 50th Anniversary compilation is the final word?

 

Nope.

 

[akaSteveRogers]

Guys, it doesn't matter what DC says or what footnotes they've written or what stories they include in which archives.

 

All of those things can change over time.

 

What can not change is when we first saw a group of teenage superheroes called "The Teen Titans." Prior to the publication of B&B 60, if I asked you whether there was a group of teenage superheroes called "The Teen Titans," you would've said no. You might very helpfully point me to B&B 54, but only after the publication of B&B 60 could you have said, "Yeah, of course there's a group of teenage superheroes called 'The Teen Titans,' they are both groovy and mod."

 

What anyone writes after the fact can't change that.

 

Common sense. Plain and simple.

[sfcityduck]

But, if you asked is there a team of superhero sidekicks or junior Justice Leaguers or teen superheros, after BB 54 you would have said yes.

 

More importantly, BB 60 itself points back to BB 54 as the origin of the team.

 

Once again, no one disagrees that the name TT appeared first in BB 60. But, the first appearance of the team was BB 54. Just like with TTA 27. I know this confuses some people, but for those of us who read the stories, what matters is the first appearance of the character/team not the trademarked name, and the flow of the story not the financial hype of the book.

 

If all you cared about was the first appearance of the trademarked name, you'd view Strange Tales 114 as the "first SA appearance" of "Captain America" because it is the first SA appearance of the name/costume/trademark. But, if you care about the story of Steve Rogers, it's not important at all.

[HighStakesComics]

I don't think there is any doubt that DC will include 54 in the compilation. I'm interested in how they address the transformation from BB 54 to BB 60. In the cited examples its obvious that previous writers have sided with the 60. If DC provides yet another, current footnote that references the 60 as the first Teen Titans that could make things even more interesting.

 

 

 

 

[HighStakesComics]

But, if you asked is there a team of superhero sidekicks or junior Justice Leaguers or teen superheros, after BB 54 you would have said yes.

 

More importantly, BB 60 itself points back to BB 54 as the origin of the team.

 

Once again, no one disagrees that the name TT appeared first in BB 60. But, the first appearance of the team was BB 54. Just like with TTA 27. I know this confuses some people, but for those of us who read the stories, what matters is the first appearance of the character/team not the trademarked name, and the flow of the story not the financial hype of the book.

 

If all you cared about was the first appearance of the trademarked name, you'd view Strange Tales 114 as the "first SA appearance" of "Captain America" because it is the first SA appearance of the name/costume/trademark. But, if you care about the story of Steve Rogers, it's not important at all.

 

How is TTA 27 more relevant than Subby 34, straw-man?

[sfcityduck]

 

How is TTA 27 more relevant than Subby 34, straw-man?

 

Because the fact pattern presented by TTA 27 is more analogous. In TTA 27 we are introduced to a character, Henry Pym, and we see the origin of how he gains the ability to shrink to very small size. In Henry Pym's next appearance, TTA 35, he dons a costume and adopts the name Ant-Man. TTA 27 is the character's first appearance. TTA 35 is the first time he adopts the name Ant-Man. Tellingly, TTA 35 refers back to TTA 27 as the character's origin.

 

Similarly, in BB 54 we are introduced to a team, comprising Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad, and we see the origin of that team and their first adventure together. In that team's next appearance, BB 60, they gain a member and adopt the name Teen Titans. BB 54 is the team's first appearance and ends with DC lauding the "new team." BB 60 is the first time that team adopts the name Teen Titans. Tellingly, BB 60 refers back to BB 54 as the team's origin.

 

Subby 34 is not similarly analogous and does not bear the same relationship to MP 1. The three heroes in Subby 34 (Hulk, Subby, Surfer) are different than the three heroes who form a team in MP 1 (Hulk, Subby, Dr. Strange). No team is formed in Subby 34. The issue doesn't end with Marvel claiming a new team is formed. MP 1 does not point back to Subby 34 as the origin of the team. To the contrary, MP 1 claims to be the origin and first appearance of the Defenders.

[sfcityduck]

 

If all you cared about was the first appearance of the trademarked name, you'd view Strange Tales 114 as the "first SA appearance" of "Captain America" because it is the first SA appearance of the name/costume/trademark. But, if you care about the story of Steve Rogers, it's not important at all.

 

How is TTA 27 more relevant than Subby 34, straw-man?

 

I don't think you know what a straw-man is, but Subby 34 is a straw-man. How about you address the point made with reference to ST 114 -- e.g., the first appearance of a "name" is not as important as the first appearance of the character/team?

Edited October 24, 2014 by sfcityduck

[HighStakesComics]

A straw man argument would be a misrepresentation in order to prove a point, like arguing that a Captain America impersonator is in any way similar to the case in point. Or like arguing no team was formed in Sub-Mariner 34. Both claims are misleading. As is claiming financial motivation. I could own 30 copies and it would not change DC's interpretation of the events that transpired 50 years ago. Why do I own 2 (not much of a hoard) copies of 60? Because it was obvious to me after reading the stories that 60 was the first appearance. After seeing the contributions of others in this thread I wish I had bought more.