1st Teen Titans 3 3

[HighStakesComics]

One more time, as said by DC themselves and not by an anonymous poster on a comics chat board:

 

 

 

It looks like Wonder Girl might be an original member after all. To say otherwise is to take a contrarian stance to the company that published the title.

 

If this is your last line of defense, Duck, you should throw in the towel and move on to greener pastures.

[yoddler]

This image is a screen capture from DC's web site. When you, I or any future comic book reader wants to download the digital version of BB54, this is the description DC has written:

 

 

Also of interest, if you scroll through the digital pages of BB54, DC has decided to include the following logo on several interior pages:

 

 

While not definitive, I do think these images should be part of the conversation going forward. Thoughts?

 

See for yourself here:

 

https://www.readdcentertainment.com/The-Brave-and-the-Bold-1955-1983-54/digital-comic/0868300545001

[HighStakesComics]

That's a nice find. Clearly different from their position in the 70's reprints. One could probably just chalk that up to marketing, as clearly there's more demand for the 54 and they are trying to sell digital copies.

 

If you go back to review the earliest reprints and what DC said back in the 70's, it's pretty obvious what those who originally published the books intended.

 

 

[JTLarsen]

Two things should be enough (besides DC publishing in comics clearly that 60 WAS the first appearance etc.):

 

If BB60 was never published.... no-one would know the Teen Titans. The Teen Titans would not exist!

 

Simply because they were founded between 54 and 60 with "Wonder Girl as original founding member".

 

 

If 54 was never published, 60 would not have been published.

 

Prove it. Sixty would not have been published with the reference to 54, true. But not published at all? Impossible to prove, but feel free to try.

 

Well, I could say you can't disprove it either, but that would be an equally ridiculous and pointless request... And I'm not sure I understand your logic that the statement is true but impossible to prove? If it's true, then it's true.

 

Fair enough, but missing the point, I think. I concede that B&B 60, which includes a direct reference to events in and after 54, could not have been published exactly the same way without 54. Could it EASILY have been published without that reference and still been virtually identical? Yeah.

[JTLarsen]

 

Not according to Robin, who says the team formed after B&B 54.

 

 

That's not what Robin says. That you have to make stuff up doesn't support your argument.

 

Let's go to the videotape.

 

 

 

So, try again.

 

Oh, and still waiting for you to identify where in B&B 54 the Teen Titans first appears. Or are you really claiming that a text box after the story is their first appearance?

[AGGIEZ]

 

Not according to Robin, who says the team formed after B&B 54.

 

 

That's not what Robin says. That you have to make stuff up doesn't support your argument.

 

Let's go to the videotape.

 

 

 

So, try again.

 

Oh, and still waiting for you to identify where in B&B 54 the Teen Titans first appears. Or are you really claiming that a text box after the story is their first appearance?

 

 

This has been covered already…

 

Not sure that picture strengthens or weakens your argument. Doesn't the word bubble clearly state "Teen Titans is a group of junior crime-fighters I set up, after Kid-Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners"…?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any mention of Wonder Girl in there. B&B #54 ends with the team being formed. Wonder Girl was obviously not a founding member to the team being blatantly absent from Robin's comment in this issue.

 

I think this one obviously points to B&B 54 as the 1st appearance of the TEEN TITANS…straight from Robin's mouth...

[sfcityduck]

That's a nice find. Clearly different from their position in the 70's reprints.

 

Not its not! DC 100 Page Giant No. 21, the VERY FIRST reprinting of BB 54, stated on its index page:

 

"Imagine a town whose teenagers have all been kidnapped-every last one! That's the situation that brings three young super-heroes together-IN A TEAM LATER TO BE KNOWN AS THE TEEN TITANS!

 

Get it (again)! The "team was formed in BB 54, and was "later known" or named "Teen Titans"!

 

DC has been very consistent in stating BB 54 was the first Teen Titans appearance, from the 1970s to the present, with the sole exception of one 70s era reprint of BB 60 and one editorial comment to a retcon in the last issue of the failed mid-70s TT revival. Every other mention of BB 54 from the 60s to the present by DC consistently calls it the first appearance.

Edited October 28, 2014 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

 

Not according to Robin, who says the team formed after B&B 54.

 

 

That's not what Robin says. That you have to make stuff up doesn't support your argument.

 

Let's go to the videotape.

 

 

 

So, try again.

 

Oh, and still waiting for you to identify where in B&B 54 the Teen Titans first appears. Or are you really claiming that a text box after the story is their first appearance?

 

The video tape shows you misquoted Robin. He says that team was set up after "Kid Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners."

 

And the conclusion of the adventure at Hatton Corners states: "A startling new team of DC heroes has triumphed!"

 

This all does fit quite nicely with what DC said in the very first reprint of BB 54 and what it has said for the past 20 years of the BB 54 reprints in Archives, Showcase, on-line, and, I think you'll see next month, in the 50 Anniversary book.

Edited October 28, 2014 by sfcityduck

[HighStakesComics]

You can spin this argument in questionable and subjective angles, but there are a few things you cannot do:

 

1.) Defend the use of the words "later" and "after" to argue present tense. 7th grade English class called. They want their textbook you never opened back.

 

2.) You cannot claim something appeared when it did not. The words teen titans never appear consecutively in BB54. The first time they do appear is on the front cover of BB 60. Followed by these words the cover proclaims "4 Teenage Heroes In One Blazing Adventure". It does not say "3 Teenage Guys & Wonder Girl" or "The Teen Titans Co-Staring Wonder-Girl". Alas, she is every bit a part of the team as her male cohorts. Argue trademark if you like, but lets give the little lady the respect she deserves. Her debut, along with that of the Titans, appear simultaneously. She perpetuates the concept. There was something before Wonder-Girl, but the Teen Titans it was not.

 

 

[yoddler]

That's a nice find. Clearly different from their position in the 70's reprints. One could probably just chalk that up to marketing, as clearly there's more demand for the 54 and they are trying to sell digital copies.

 

If you go back to review the earliest reprints and what DC said back in the 70's, it's pretty obvious what those who originally published the books intended.

 

 

I work in publishing and from personal experience find it hard to believe that this was written up by some marketing person without regard to editorial continuity or approval -- especially from a company so concerned about its intellectual property catering to a obsessive and hardcore fan base. I do doubt that DC would let this fly if it wasn't the company line. The description alone I might buy, but the logo in the layouts? No way.

 

As you said earlier in one of your posts, this was "said by DC themselves" -- if that argument is good enough for you, in this case it's also good enough for me.

 

DC states TODAY that BB54 is the origin and first appearance -- which incidently has been accepted as fact for decades.

[yoddler]

Two things should be enough (besides DC publishing in comics clearly that 60 WAS the first appearance etc.):

 

If BB60 was never published.... no-one would know the Teen Titans. The Teen Titans would not exist!

 

Simply because they were founded between 54 and 60 with "Wonder Girl as original founding member".

 

 

If 54 was never published, 60 would not have been published.

 

Prove it. Sixty would not have been published with the reference to 54, true. But not published at all? Impossible to prove, but feel free to try.

 

Well, I could say you can't disprove it either, but that would be an equally ridiculous and pointless request... And I'm not sure I understand your logic that the statement is true but impossible to prove? If it's true, then it's true.

 

Fair enough, but missing the point, I think. I concede that B&B 60, which includes a direct reference to events in and after 54, could not have been published exactly the same way without 54. Could it EASILY have been published without that reference and still been virtually identical? Yeah.

 

You're also missing my point: HISTORY states that the reason DC went ahead and published BB60 is because of the positive reception it received from BB54. 54 begat 60. There is a direct correlation and connection between these two books.

 

Could someone have independently decided hey, let's do a teen sidekick book and call it "Tween Titans" or "Prepubescent Titans" without BB54? Um, yeah they could have. (hint: they didn't). DC could have also published a book about a walking tree and a talking raccoon...

 

[HighStakesComics]

That's a nice find. Clearly different from their position in the 70's reprints. One could probably just chalk that up to marketing, as clearly there's more demand for the 54 and they are trying to sell digital copies.

 

If you go back to review the earliest reprints and what DC said back in the 70's, it's pretty obvious what those who originally published the books intended.

 

 

I work in publishing and from personal experience find it hard to believe that this was written up by some marketing person without regard to editorial continuity or approval -- especially from a company so concerned about its intellectual property catering to a obsessive and hardcore fan base. I do doubt that DC would let this fly if it wasn't the company line. The description alone I might buy, but the logo in the layouts? No way.

 

As you said earlier in one of your posts, this was "said by DC themselves" -- if that argument is good enough for you, in this case it's also good enough for me.

 

DC states TODAY that BB54 is the origin and first appearance -- which incidently has been accepted as fact for decades.

 

Since the digital BB 60 isn't even available, I will concede the current, doctored version is the first digital appearance of the Teen Titans and that the words "teen titans" have to be digitally added to in order to enhance the illusion it's the first real appearance.

 

50 years after the fact, thanks to modern technology you now have your trademark. Congratulations.

[yoddler]

That's a nice find. Clearly different from their position in the 70's reprints. One could probably just chalk that up to marketing, as clearly there's more demand for the 54 and they are trying to sell digital copies.

 

If you go back to review the earliest reprints and what DC said back in the 70's, it's pretty obvious what those who originally published the books intended.

 

 

I work in publishing and from personal experience find it hard to believe that this was written up by some marketing person without regard to editorial continuity or approval -- especially from a company so concerned about its intellectual property catering to a obsessive and hardcore fan base. I do doubt that DC would let this fly if it wasn't the company line. The description alone I might buy, but the logo in the layouts? No way.

 

As you said earlier in one of your posts, this was "said by DC themselves" -- if that argument is good enough for you, in this case it's also good enough for me.

 

DC states TODAY that BB54 is the origin and first appearance -- which incidently has been accepted as fact for decades.

 

Since the digital BB 60 isn't even available, I will concede the current, doctored version is the first digital appearance of the Teen Titans and that the words "teen titans" have to be digitally added to in order to enhance the illusion it's the first real appearance.

 

50 years after the fact, thanks to modern technology you now have your trademark. Congratulations.

 

you act like I'm the one who went into the file and inserted the logo there, when in fact it was DC that made that decision and last time I checked, they're allowed to do whatever they want to their comics.

 

Also if you'll recall it was never about the trademark in BB60 for me and I actually conceded this fact to you -- for me it's always been about the story and history of BB54 that to me makes it the first appearance of the Teen Titans.

 

The only reason I shared the digital files here is that I thought it was an interesting and relevant choice that DC made to clearly state and highlight their position that BB54 is the origin and first appearance of the Teen Titans.

[AlexanderM]

"Mad hatters" is a football team I set up after Roy and I met at a reunion last month.

 

We thought about it a bit and since we gel really well I called him back and asked if we should try to set up a team of old school friends.

 

...

 

I imagine that is what he is saying. After they disgusted that teaming up with other teens was a good idea, they wanted to make a proper team consisting of those 4.

 

That obviously did not happen in 54.

[AlexanderM]

DC on their own Web site (not a wiki) says that wonder girl was an original founding member. Not a member that was later included.

 

We know that did not happen in 54. So according to DC the foundation of TT could not have been in 54.

 

DC well apparently say whatever is necessary to sell books but comics history and looking at what actually happens in the books clearly shows 60 to be the first appearance of TT. 54 is a back story explaining some of the reason for the team (doesn't explain wonder girl etc).

 

 

[JTLarsen]

 

Not according to Robin, who says the team formed after B&B 54.

 

 

That's not what Robin says. That you have to make stuff up doesn't support your argument.

 

Let's go to the videotape.

 

 

 

So, try again.

 

Oh, and still waiting for you to identify where in B&B 54 the Teen Titans first appears. Or are you really claiming that a text box after the story is their first appearance?

 

 

This has been covered already…

 

Not sure that picture strengthens or weakens your argument. Doesn't the word bubble clearly state "Teen Titans is a group of junior crime-fighters I set up, after Kid-Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners"…?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any mention of Wonder Girl in there. B&B #54 ends with the team being formed. Wonder Girl was obviously not a founding member to the team being blatantly absent from Robin's comment in this issue.

 

I think this one obviously points to B&B 54 as the 1st appearance of the TEEN TITANS…straight from Robin's mouth...

 

No, Robin says "after" B&B 54. If you think Robin is wrong about when he set up the Teen Titans, please identify the panel in B&B 54 in which that happens.

[JTLarsen]

 

Not according to Robin, who says the team formed after B&B 54.

 

 

That's not what Robin says. That you have to make stuff up doesn't support your argument.

 

Let's go to the videotape.

 

 

 

So, try again.

 

Oh, and still waiting for you to identify where in B&B 54 the Teen Titans first appears. Or are you really claiming that a text box after the story is their first appearance?

 

 

This has been covered already…

 

Not sure that picture strengthens or weakens your argument. Doesn't the word bubble clearly state "Teen Titans is a group of junior crime-fighters I set up, after Kid-Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners"…?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any mention of Wonder Girl in there. B&B #54 ends with the team being formed. Wonder Girl was obviously not a founding member to the team being blatantly absent from Robin's comment in this issue.

 

I think this one obviously points to B&B 54 as the 1st appearance of the TEEN TITANS…straight from Robin's mouth...

 

In B&B 54, Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad help the teenagers of Hatton Corners. "AFTER" that, Robin set up a group of junior crime-fighters called the Teen Titans. Not only does Robin explicitly say that, we know it must be so, because nowhere in B&B 54 does Robin or anyone else set up a group of junior crime-fighters. Three actors acting together does not make a theater company. If those three actors set up a theater company to act together on a regular basis in the future, then they've formed a theater company. And if that theater company is formed after the three actors did one play in Hatton Corners, that does not make Hatton Corners the site of the founding of the Teen Titans Theater Company.

[AlexanderM]

 

Not according to Robin, who says the team formed after B&B 54.

 

 

That's not what Robin says. That you have to make stuff up doesn't support your argument.

 

Let's go to the videotape.

 

 

 

So, try again.

 

Oh, and still waiting for you to identify where in B&B 54 the Teen Titans first appears. Or are you really claiming that a text box after the story is their first appearance?

 

 

This has been covered already…

 

Not sure that picture strengthens or weakens your argument. Doesn't the word bubble clearly state "Teen Titans is a group of junior crime-fighters I set up, after Kid-Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners"…?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any mention of Wonder Girl in there. B&B #54 ends with the team being formed. Wonder Girl was obviously not a founding member to the team being blatantly absent from Robin's comment in this issue.

 

I think this one obviously points to B&B 54 as the 1st appearance of the TEEN TITANS…straight from Robin's mouth...

 

In B&B 54, Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad help the teenagers of Hatton Corners. "AFTER" that, Robin set up a group of junior crime-fighters called the Teen Titans. Not only does Robin explicitly say that, we know it must be so, because nowhere in B&B 54 does Robin or anyone else set up a group of junior crime-fighters. Three actors acting together does not make a theater company. If those three actors set up a theater company to act together on a regular basis in the future, then they've formed a theater company. And if that theater company is formed after the three actors did one play in Hatton Corners, that does not make Hatton Corners the site of the founding of the Teen Titans Theater Company.

 

Yes, I think it is very clear that the group of 4 was founded after 54 and before 60.

[JTLarsen]

 

Not according to Robin, who says the team formed after B&B 54.

 

 

That's not what Robin says. That you have to make stuff up doesn't support your argument.

 

Let's go to the videotape.

 

 

 

So, try again.

 

Oh, and still waiting for you to identify where in B&B 54 the Teen Titans first appears. Or are you really claiming that a text box after the story is their first appearance?

 

The video tape shows you misquoted Robin. He says that team was set up after "Kid Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners."

 

And the conclusion of the adventure at Hatton Corners states: "A startling new team of DC heroes has triumphed!"

 

This all does fit quite nicely with what DC said in the very first reprint of BB 54 and what it has said for the past 20 years of the BB 54 reprints in Archives, Showcase, on-line, and, I think you'll see next month, in the 50 Anniversary book.

 

I'm going to say this for what I'm sure won't be the last time. I acknowledge that the universe at large, including corporate DC, considers B&B 54 the first appearance of the Teen Titans. Okay? My argument is that I think this will change once people realize that people like you can point to no single panel in 54 where the team is formed, let alone named. And when they realize that you simply make stuff up. For instance, you claim I misquoted Robin. First of all, I didn't quote him at all. So, you made that up. Second, I paraphrased him accurately--he says he set up the Teen Titans after helping the teenagers of Hatton Corners, which, as the asterisked footnote you omitted tells us, occurred in B&B 54. So, you made that up, too.

 

And here's the thing, I don't need you to agree with me. You can even keep making stuff up if you want. You've made up the notion that anyone said anything about the trademark for the "Teen Titans" name when no one did. You've made up the idea that a text box at the conclusion of a story somehow established the creation of a brand new super-team. You've made up claims about what I say.

 

Now, despite all that, some people are going to agree with you and say, "Hell, yeah, 54 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans! I love the part of their first appearance where the editor says, 'has triumphed!'"

 

And other people are going to look at what's actually in that issue and say, "Where the hell is the phrase 'Teen Titans'? When do they decide to form a super-team? When do they actually form it?" And they'll realize, oh, mess, this is a prototype or something.

 

I'm betting that the evidence I and others have put forward (like, actual in-continuity story panels in which Robin tells us things) will eventually overcome both the acknowledged current consensus in favor of 54 as well as the meta-textual evidence you've put forward (like, ambiguously worded editorial captions after the story ends).

 

Still waiting for that page or panel the excited new owner of B&B 54 can turn to to revel in the awesome first appearance of the Teen Titans.

[sfcityduck]

 

Still waiting for that page or panel the excited new owner of B&B 54 can turn to to revel in the awesome first appearance of the Teen Titans.

 

You must be young. It's a story. You have to read the whole story to see the origin of the team. This is not ADD land. They first appear in a panel together on p. 3, and by the end of the story they have learned the value of working together.