1st Teen Titans 3 3

[thunsicker]

I would be willing to place a bet that most of the people who feel Brave and the Bold 54 was the first Teen Titans are over 45 years old and most who feel Brave and the Bold 60 was the first Teen Titans are under 35 years old. The fact is there are compelling arguments for both sides, but for older collectors for whom this has been part of their "knowledge" for 25+ years it's hard to see anything but Brave and the Bold 54 as the first Teen Titans.

[Aman619]

Yes. And that's because having been there buying them off the news stands and reading the issues, it was perfectly clear what happened when, and which caused which. S to us it has always been 54 where the Teen Titans began.

 

That's not to say things won't change, like with OAAW 83, but I don't know that we are at that point yet.

 

 

But I guess if you youngons make it happen, anything could happen.

[AlexanderM]

Someone who bought comics in the 70ties and 80ties before the Internet just relied on what others said.... and misinformation spread and was hard to refute.

 

Nowadays we can inform ourselves much better with the use of the Internet.

 

 

[JTLarsen]

Teen Titans is 4 TEENAGE HEROES.

 

Uh .. no. It started with three teenage heroes. And it ended with 5 or 6 after hitting a height of 11 or 12.

 

Ok...

 

I guess one way to determine when the TT started is to see who DC says were the original founding members.

 

If Wonder Girl was not a founding member - then perhaps BB54 could be the first appearance of TT.

 

If Wonder Girl was a founding original member, then it cannot be 54, but must be 60 which is the first appearance.

 

According to DC Wonder Girl was a founding member.....

 

Wonder girl was a founding member... hmmmm...

 

Where does that leave us and what do we know?

 

1. We know that Wonder Girl did NOT found any group in BB54.

2. We know that Wonder Girl was part of TT in BB60.

 

That leaves two options. Either TT was founded in BB60 or it was founded after BB54 but before BB60.

 

____

 

For me, BB60 was the first appearance of the TT.

 

53 tells the story of how Ringo, and Paul meet... 54 how they got to know John and played music together. BB60 tells the story of when they actually decided they clicked so well they formed the Beatles.

 

But I understand the confusion fully. CGC labels... just like people still thing Hulk271 is the first appearance of the little fury critter... and because DC have conflicting messages in this regards.

 

But overall I think it is fairly clear that the most logical conclusion is that it is 60. Wonder Girl is a founding member and must be in BB60 then, there is no formal group in 53 or 54, only that some of them knew each other.

 

Right. The Teen Titans are founded in between the two issues. And we first see them in print in B&B 60.

[JTLarsen]

C-mon, Yoddler. That's like saying The X-Men wouldn't have made it if Fantastic Four was not so successful.

 

This isn't that hard. DC had stated twice in writing that #60 is the first appearance. I have Lazyboy heckling me aggressively after quoting what the DC Wikia says about BB 60, yet no one has edited it since March, 2014. We don't know who maintains the site but it does not appear public.

 

Anyone who has read the issue can tell BB 60 is to the Teen Titans what Brave and the Bold 28 was to the Justice League.

 

How can it be a first appearance if what supposedly appears is neither mentioned nor pictured (with Wonder Girl) in the entire issue?

 

And, oh yeah. There's this........

 

 

I agree with you!

 

#60 is the first issue a team calls itself the Teen Titans. It's the first issue of Wonder Girl as an original member of a team that first calls itself the Teen Titans.

 

But is it the first issue in the story of the formation of that team? No.

 

54 is the first issue that begins the story of the Teen Titans. There would be no 60 if there was no 54. You cannot argue the connection between these two books. They are directly linked. 54 begat 60.

 

I think they easily could have made 60 without 54, both commercially and narratively. But I agree with everything else you say. B&B 54 is a story in the formation of the team. B&B 60 is the first appearance of the team (the formation of which began earlier than 60...going all the way back to 'tec 38!)

[JTLarsen]

Someone who bought comics in the 70ties and 80ties before the Internet just relied on what others said.... and misinformation spread and was hard to refute.

 

Nowadays we can inform ourselves much better with the use of the Internet.

 

 

Yes! For DECADES I took it for granted that 54 was their first appearance. Then I got the archives and actually read and went, "Whaaaa??!??" After reading 60, it was clear to me that 60 was the first appearance of a standing, organized, formally constituted superhero team called The Teen Titans and 54 was a seminal event leading up to the creation of that team.

[sfcityduck]

 

If you're a casual Beatles listener, sure. They began when they started calling themselves the Beatles.

 

If you're a hardcore collector and fan, you can bet those early recordings are part of the Beatles catalogue and story. If you're a completionist, you can bet those early recordings are even very sought after.

 

As a collector, I see 54 being the first and most important beginning issue for the Teen Titans. If you absolutely need a logo and a name, if you need every single original member all together in the same panel, then 60 is the issue for you.

 

Great analogy. First, there was John, Paul and George practicing at their house. Then they added Pete and Stu. Then Stu died, Pete was fired, and Ringo hired. But, to the casual fan, the Beatles weren't a band until Ringo joined and they released did Love Me Do. Collectors know better.

[sfcityduck]

B&B 54 is a story in the formation of the team. B&B 60 is the first appearance of the team (the formation of which began earlier than 60...going all the way back to 'tec 38!)

 

How can the "formation of the team" pre-date the team's "first appearance"? It can't.

 

Claiming that the formation of the Teen Titans began in D 38 is, frankly, insane and ridiculous.

[sfcityduck]

I admire Blazing's tenacity, but I suspect that the final nail in the coffin for his desperate PR effort for BB 60 will be when the new 50th Anniversary compendium comes out. At that point, we'll be able to contrast his assertions that BB 60 is the official start point of the Teen Titans because of "official" wiki entries say so with what DC's official position actually is.

[Silverdream]

This is the stuff that makes me love comics.

 

I mean where else in printed media will men and women of all ages argue in circles over the same thing so passionately on something that is 50 years old?

 

 

[Crimebuster]

I admire Blazing's tenacity, but I suspect that the final nail in the coffin for his desperate PR effort for BB 60 will be when the new 50th Anniversary compendium comes out.

 

I suspect it won't be, mainly because he's correct.

 

DC can retcon their own universe, but they can't retcon ours. According to everything that has been presented so far, it seems to be a plain fact that #60 is the first time something called "Teen Titans" appeared in a comic. Prior to #60, nothing called "Teen Titans" existed.

 

Now, you might be able to argue that in story terms, the story in #54 was later deemed to be a "Teen Titans" story - though nothing anyone has said or shown so far has convinced me that's the case either. But even if it that was the case, it would be a retcon.

 

This whole thing is very similar to Avengers #71, which has long been listed in price guides and considered by fans to be the first appearance of the Invaders. Except, it very much is not in any sense, even in a story sense. It came out in 1969. The Invaders weren't created until Giant-Size Invaders #1 in 1975. It wasn't until Invaders Annual #1 in 1977 that Roy Thomas retconned a link to the story in Avengers #71 - and it's not even part of their origin story, it's just a random adventure they went on long after they formed. But thanks to "the market" and "fan knowledge," everyone just knows that Avengers #71 is their "first appearance." Despite, you know, every fact of reality itself.

 

Fans can say whatever they want and the market can decide what it wants to as well. Those factors can make #54 the key issue for collectors. That's all fine and I have no problem with it. People can collect what they want, how they want.

 

But in terms of the real world, actual publication history shows that #60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans.

[JTLarsen]

B&B 54 is a story in the formation of the team. B&B 60 is the first appearance of the team (the formation of which began earlier than 60...going all the way back to 'tec 38!)

 

How can the "formation of the team" pre-date the team's "first appearance"? It can't.

 

Claiming that the formation of the Teen Titans began in D 38 is, frankly, insane and ridiculous.

 

Another straw-man misquote, sadly. I said the formation BEGAN. Misquoting the person you're arguing with sure makes things easier for you, but you might find you'll get caught at it less often if you don't include the original quote right above your misquote. Things can begin to form before they fully form. As we've seen with every single analogy we've used in this threat. And yes, claiming the Teen Titans began in 'tec 38 IS absurd. That's why it's part of the argument--it's a kind of argument called a reductio ad absurdum and its point is to demonstrate that YOUR argument about when the team REALLY began is shown to be absurd when you take it to its logical extremes. Meaning: If we accept your argument that the team The Teen Titans began to exist before there was a team called The Teen Titans, you have no counter-argument when people take your logic to its extreme by pointing to 'tec 38.

 

And just for the record, the formation of EVERYTHING pre-dates EVERYTHING'S first appearance. It begins to form and once the formation is complete, it appears. The formation of the Teen Titans was not complete until BB60. Its formation BEGAN earlier, as I've been trying to concede to you, and we saw part of its formation in BB54. Other parts of its formation happened off-screen between 54 and 60, as Robin explicitly tells us in 60.

[JTLarsen]

Okay, I've been trying to think of a way to cut through the complicated arguments (not excluding my own, here!) and come up with a simple way of thinking about this that has both obvious and instinctive appeal.

 

So how about this. No one disputes that the Teen Titans appear in B&B 60, right? So, if you also maintain that the Teen Titans' FIRST appearance is in B&B 54, tell us (better yet, show us with an attachment) which panel in B&B 54 represents the first appearance of the Teen Titans. That way we'll know what we're actually debating here--not the theoretical concept of them teaming up, but the panel in which a first-time reader would be able to say, "Oh, they've formed a new super-hero team, which they'll probably later give a name to, possibly Teen Titans." (Couldn't resist the snark there, sorry, please don't take the bait!)

 

In short: Who can show us the panel that gave the world the Teen Titans?

[sfcityduck]

In short: Who can show us the panel that gave the world the Teen Titans?

 

I don't suffer from ADD, so the focus on finding a single "panel" seems strange to me.

 

The story in BB 54 chronicles Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad coming together as a team for an adventure at the conclusion of which DC, in the last panel, announces a "new team" of DC heroes. This is essentially exactly what happened in Avengers 1. The only difference being that in Avengers 1, the heroes picked a "team" name. For Teen Titans, we only learn the team name in on pp. 4-5 of BB 60, but it is made clear that the team formation pre-existed that issue and the team name was picked off-camera before that issue commenced. Indeed, BB 60 refers back to BB 54 as the origin of the team. I don't think there is a lot of mystery here.

 

It's not a retcon. That is how BB 54 and BB 60 played out in real time.

 

The only retcon was the editorial comment in last issue of the mid-70s revival of the TT that you and others are relying upon.

 

While DC has been a little inconsistent on whether BB 54 was the first appearance of the Teen Titans, the first reprinting of the story, and every reprinting since that point have referred to it as a Teen Titans story. And, indeed, the 50th Anniversary of the Teen Titans keys off that issue. Nothing more really needs to be said.

[Silver]

In short: Who can show us the panel that gave the world the Teen Titans?

 

I don't suffer from ADD, so the focus on finding a single "panel" seems strange to me.

 

The story in BB 54 chronicles Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad coming together as a team for an adventure at the conclusion of which DC, in the last panel, announces a "new team" of DC heroes. This is essentially exactly what happened in Avengers 1. The only difference being that in Avengers 1, the heroes picked a "team" name. For Teen Titans, we only learn the team name in on pp. 4-5 of BB 60, but it is made clear that the team formation pre-existed that issue and the team name was picked off-camera before that issue commenced. Indeed, BB 60 refers back to BB 54 as the origin of the team. I don't think there is a lot of mystery here.

 

It's not a retcon. That is how BB 54 and BB 60 played out in real time.

 

The only retcon was the editorial comment in last issue of the mid-70s revival of the TT that you and others are relying upon.

 

While DC has been a little inconsistent on whether BB 54 was the first appearance of the Teen Titans, the first reprinting of the story, and every reprinting since that point have referred to it as a Teen Titans story. And, indeed, the 50th Anniversary of the Teen Titans keys off that issue. Nothing more really needs to be said.

 

You said it yourself Duck, DC is inconsistent, so saying that this is the 50th anniversary means nothing really, except they can make a few bucks today instead of waiting till next year!

[sfcityduck]

 

Now, you might be able to argue that in story terms, the story in #54 was later deemed to be a "Teen Titans" story - though nothing anyone has said or shown so far has convinced me that's the case either. But even if it that was the case, it would be a retcon.

 

This whole thing is very similar to Avengers #71, which has long been listed in price guides and considered by fans to be the first appearance of the Invaders. Except, it very much is not in any sense, even in a story sense. It came out in 1969. The Invaders weren't created until Giant-Size Invaders #1 in 1975. It wasn't until Invaders Annual #1 in 1977 that Roy Thomas retconned a link to the story in Avengers #71 - and it's not even part of their origin story, it's just a random adventure they went on long after they formed. But thanks to "the market" and "fan knowledge," everyone just knows that Avengers #71 is their "first appearance." Despite, you know, every fact of reality itself.

 

 

"Retcon" means "retroactive continuity." The example you give, of an author retroactively, 8 years later, changing continuity is a retcon. But, that's not what happened with BB 54 and BB 60. BB 54 and BB 60 is an example of plain old "continuity." The story in BB 60 continues the story told in BB 54. There is no "retconning." Nothing that transpires in BB 60 changes anything that happened in BB 54. All that happens in BB 60 is that the team formed in BB 54 adds a member and is named. That's called progression and plot development. It is no way a retcon.

[sfcityduck]

 

You said it yourself Duck, DC is inconsistent, so saying that this is the 50th anniversary means nothing really, except they can make a few bucks today instead of waiting till next year!

 

A "little inconsistent." And that was only in the mid-70s, and only in (1) an editorial comment in the index of a 1973 reprinting of BB 60 and (2) a 1978 one-line editorial comment in the last issue of the mid-70s TT revival. In contrast, every single reprinting of BB 54 from the editorial comment in the index of the 1973 reprinting of the BB 54, to the DC Archives, to the DC Showcase, etc., have always referred to BB 54 as the first appearance of the Teen Titans.

[sfcityduck]

Things can begin to form before they fully form. As we've seen with every single analogy we've used in this threat. And yes, claiming the Teen Titans began in 'tec 38 IS absurd. That's why it's part of the argument--it's a kind of argument called a reductio ad absurdum and its point is to demonstrate that YOUR argument about when the team REALLY began is shown to be absurd when you take it to its logical extremes. Meaning: If we accept your argument that the team The Teen Titans began to exist before there was a team called The Teen Titans, you have no counter-argument when people take your logic to its extreme by pointing to 'tec 38.

 

I certainly do have a counter-argument: Your "extreme" is far from logical. A team only forms when the heroes come together to form the team. For the Avengers, that occurred in Avengers 1. Not in JIM 83, TOS 39, etc. To pretend otherwise is credibility destroying, absurd, and plain stupid. D 38 has nothing to do with the formation of the Teen Titans. For the Teen Titans, the team only "began" to form when the heroes met in BB 54 (the team was formed in that issue). To pretend otherwise, is not logical and it certainly is not an illustration of the reduction ad absurdum. At best, it is a strawman. [You really need to brush up on your rhetorical fallacies.]

[Silver]

This horse is beat to death.

[HighStakesComics]

FWIW, here my $.02. I believe a strong case can be made for the #60. Here's why:

 

1. The Title-Whereas 54 appears to be a Brave and the Bold featuring an an Aqualad, Kid Flash & Robin team-up, 60 clearly defines on the FC that these are indeed the Teen Titans.

 

2. First Point of Reference-As two previous posters mentioned there is no reference made within 54 declaring these are the "Teen Titans" until the Batman/Robin dialogue in issue 60. While 54 can be considered the first team-up, there is nothing articulated to the reader pertaining to a "team" in perpetuity.

 

3. The Inclusion of Wonder-Girl-Making her first appearance in 60, the addition of Wonder Girl as a founding member constitutes the formation of the original team. Prior to her debut, there was never any reference to the Teen Titans, therefore it would be hard to argue that the team existed prior to 60.

 

'Nuff said. You can argue and spin the 54 as desperately as you want, Duck. These three elements cannot be disputed. The team is completed and named in 60, and as indicated on the front cover, splash page and numerous references by DC themselves, it is the 1st appearance of the "original team".

The Avengers argument has no merit as it meets all three of these requirements. The team is named, completed and indicated as such in the title. If anything, the Avengers argument STRENGTHENS the case for BB60.