1st Teen Titans 3 3

[sfcityduck]

I agree. I think DC will put this debate to bed, to the extent it hasn't already, in less than a month.

[yoddler]

FWIW, here my $.02. I believe a strong case can be made for the #60. Here's why:

 

1. The Title-Whereas 54 appears to be a Brave and the Bold featuring an an Aqualad, Kid Flash & Robin team-up, 60 clearly defines on the FC that these are indeed the Teen Titans.

 

2. First Point of Reference-As two previous posters mentioned there is no reference made within 54 declaring these are the "Teen Titans" until the Batman/Robin dialogue in issue 60. While 54 can be considered the first team-up, there is nothing articulated to the reader pertaining to a "team" in perpetuity.

 

3. The Inclusion of Wonder-Girl-Making her first appearance in 60, the addition of Wonder Girl as a founding member constitutes the formation of the original team. Prior to her debut, there was never any reference to the Teen Titans, therefore it would be hard to argue that the team existed prior to 60.

 

'Nuff said. You can argue and spin the 54 as desperately as you want, Duck. These three elements cannot be disputed. The team is completed and named in 60, and as indicated on the front cover, splash page and numerous references by DC themselves, it is the 1st appearance of the "original team".

The Avengers argument has no merit as it meets all three of these requirements. The team is named, completed and indicated as such in the title. If anything, the Avengers argument STRENGTHENS the case for BB60.

 

These elements you offer are not being disputed. They are fact, but that doesn't make 60 the beginning of the Teen Titans story.

 

Which issue did DC first top-line their teen sidekicks together? And by that, I ask which issue did DC first allow these teen sidekicks the opportunity to carry and be the main characters of their own comic?

 

BB54 was the first time. Ever. This is also fact. And as a direct result of 54, they decided to continue and further evolve the story in BB60.

 

You cannot have 60 without 54. 54 begat 60.

[JTLarsen]

Things can begin to form before they fully form. As we've seen with every single analogy we've used in this threat. And yes, claiming the Teen Titans began in 'tec 38 IS absurd. That's why it's part of the argument--it's a kind of argument called a reductio ad absurdum and its point is to demonstrate that YOUR argument about when the team REALLY began is shown to be absurd when you take it to its logical extremes. Meaning: If we accept your argument that the team The Teen Titans began to exist before there was a team called The Teen Titans, you have no counter-argument when people take your logic to its extreme by pointing to 'tec 38.

 

I certainly do have a counter-argument: Your "extreme" is far from logical. A team only forms when the heroes come together to form the team. For the Avengers, that occurred in Avengers 1. Not in JIM 83, TOS 39, etc. To pretend otherwise is credibility destroying, absurd, and plain stupid. D 38 has nothing to do with the formation of the Teen Titans. For the Teen Titans, the team only "began" to form when the heroes met in BB 54 (the team was formed in that issue). To pretend otherwise, is not logical and it certainly is not an illustration of the reduction ad absurdum. At best, it is a strawman. [You really need to brush up on your rhetorical fallacies.]

 

Physician, heal thyself. The entire point of a reductio ad absurdum is to use an absurdity to illustrate the absurdity of the thinking behind it. No one is arguing 'tec 38 is the first appearance of the team...they're using it illustrate how silly it is to argue that BB 54 is.

 

And while you were busy telling me to brush up on rhetorical fallacies you might have noticed that you used the verb "form" to define when a team "forms." You are correct, a team forms when it forms. Well done. Tautological, in fact.

 

As I said, if the Teen Titans formed in BB 54, it should be easy to show us the panel in which it happened or is first made explicit and clear. I.e., a first appearance.

 

Still waiting.

[JTLarsen]

In short: Who can show us the panel that gave the world the Teen Titans?

 

I don't suffer from ADD, so the focus on finding a single "panel" seems strange to me.

 

I'll see if I can explain it more simply. You say the Teen Titans first appeared in B&B 54. Where?

[Aman619]

Fans can say whatever they want and the market can decide what it wants to as well. Those factors can make #54 the key issue for collectors. That's all fine and I have no problem with it. People can collect what they want, how they want.

 

But in terms of the real world, actual publication history shows that #60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans.

 

haha As an example of why this discussion is taking so long, and is so maddening to all of us with every other post (the ones promoting the other side…), I actually agree with the above … and yet it reads like you have it backwards to me.

 

In my world, the one that I think of as the "real" world -- the ones we fans live in, that DC published comics in, their "Publication History" says #54 to me, and it's the fans today that are demanding that #60 be their first appearance.

 

THIRD BASE!

[Crimebuster]

Fans can say whatever they want and the market can decide what it wants to as well. Those factors can make #54 the key issue for collectors. That's all fine and I have no problem with it. People can collect what they want, how they want.

 

But in terms of the real world, actual publication history shows that #60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans.

 

haha As an example of why this discussion is taking so long, and is so maddening to all of us with every other post (the ones promoting the other side…), I actually agree with the above … and yet it reads like you have it backwards to me.

 

In my world, the one that I think of as the "real" world -- the ones we fans live in, that DC published comics in, their "Publication History" says #54 to me, and it's the fans today that are demanding that #60 be their first appearance.

 

 

I think to a degree people are arguing two different things here.

 

I think it's clear that #54 is an important step in the formation of the Teen Titans. That is true both in terms of the story, where Robin pretty clearly implies in #60 that the inspiration for forming the group was their adventure in #54, and in terms of the real world, where DC I think was inspired to make a more permanent team after they saw the sales of #54.

 

If this means that some people feel #54 is more important than #60, that's perfectly reasonable.

 

But #60 literally is the first appearance of the Teen Titans. Key word here being literally. Prior to the publication of #60, no such entity existed. So I find it pretty impossible to believe that #54 is their first appearance when, factually, it was not.

 

What this means to Teen Titans fans - whether #54 or #60 is more important or more valuable - is up to fans to decide for themselves. I'm not even a Titans fan. I just find claims that #54 is their first appearance to be weird, when all evidence presented so far directly contradicts this.

 

 

I'll also say that some of the arguments presented by proponents of #54 just don't make any sense to me. The comparison with Avengers #1 in particular is odd, since any such comparison supports #60.

 

I also feel there's a pretty clear distinction between a team-up and a team. It's like the difference between going to the gym and playing in a pickup game, and going to the gym and signing up for a rec league. One is informal, the other is formally organized. Everything I've seen in this thread so far supports the idea that #54 was a team-up and #60 was a team.

[AlexanderM]

Two things should be enough (besides DC publishing in comics clearly that 60 WAS the first appearance etc.):

 

If BB60 was never published.... no-one would know the Teen Titans. The Teen Titans would not exist!

 

Simply because they were founded between 54 and 60 with "Wonder Girl as original founding member".

 

 

[yoddler]

Two things should be enough (besides DC publishing in comics clearly that 60 WAS the first appearance etc.):

 

If BB60 was never published.... no-one would know the Teen Titans. The Teen Titans would not exist!

 

Simply because they were founded between 54 and 60 with "Wonder Girl as original founding member".

 

 

If 54 was never published, 60 would not have been published.

[Silver]

We're back to that?

[yoddler]

[sfcityduck]

Blazing, you keep asserting that Wonder Girl was a "founding member" of the Teen Titans. Who says? Clearly, the DC position is that the founding members were Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad. Wonder Girl joined next. Then Speedy. Then others.

[sfcityduck]

 

I'll see if I can explain it more simply. You say the Teen Titans first appeared in B&B 54. Where?

 

The team is formed when the heroes band together, the team in announced as a "new team" in the last panel, and the team is named in their next appearance.

 

Clearly, the concept that a "team" can "form" before it is "named" is a little advanced for you. But, that's what happened with Teen Titans. If you want to be a Teen Titans completest you have to get BB 54 as it is the first appearance and origin of the team. BB 60 adds a new member and introduces the name "Teen Titans."

[sfcityduck]

 

1. The Title-Whereas 54 appears to be a Brave and the Bold featuring an an Aqualad, Kid Flash & Robin team-up, 60 clearly defines on the FC that these are indeed the Teen Titans.

 

Response: No one denies that the name "Teen Titans" firs appears in BB 60, but BB 54 introduces the "new team" and announces it as such in the final panel of the issue.

 

2. First Point of Reference-As two previous posters mentioned there is no reference made within 54 declaring these are the "Teen Titans" until the Batman/Robin dialogue in issue 60. While 54 can be considered the first team-up, there is nothing articulated to the reader pertaining to a "team" in perpetuity.

 

Response: I have to repeat myself, but, again, no one denies that the name "Teen Titans" firs appears in BB 60, but BB 54 introduces the "new team" and announces it as such in the final panel of the issue.

 

3. The Inclusion of Wonder-Girl-Making her first appearance in 60, the addition of Wonder Girl as a founding member constitutes the formation of the original team. Prior to her debut, there was never any reference to the Teen Titans, therefore it would be hard to argue that the team existed prior to 60.

 

Response: Wonder Girl is the first new member of the Teen Titans. A very early addition. And she appears in the first adventure where they use the name "Teen Titans" (unless you factor in mid-70s retcon). But, since she isn't in BB 54, hard to call her a "founding member." You are stating your opinion as a conclusion.

 

 

 

[JTLarsen]

Two things should be enough (besides DC publishing in comics clearly that 60 WAS the first appearance etc.):

 

If BB60 was never published.... no-one would know the Teen Titans. The Teen Titans would not exist!

 

Simply because they were founded between 54 and 60 with "Wonder Girl as original founding member".

 

 

If 54 was never published, 60 would not have been published.

 

Prove it. Sixty would not have been published with the reference to 54, true. But not published at all? Impossible to prove, but feel free to try.

[JTLarsen]

 

I'll see if I can explain it more simply. You say the Teen Titans first appeared in B&B 54. Where?

 

The team is formed when the heroes band together, the team in announced as a "new team" in the last panel, and the team is named in their next appearance.

 

Clearly, the concept that a "team" can "form" before it is "named" is a little advanced for you. But, that's what happened with Teen Titans.

 

Not according to Robin, who says the team formed after B&B 54.

 

If you want to be a Teen Titans completest you have to get BB 54 as it is the first appearance and origin of the team. BB 60 adds a new member and introduces the name "Teen Titans."

 

So...no panel? C'mon, give us a hint! On what PAGE of B&B 54 does the superhero group known as the Teen Titans form?

[JTLarsen]

Fans can say whatever they want and the market can decide what it wants to as well. Those factors can make #54 the key issue for collectors. That's all fine and I have no problem with it. People can collect what they want, how they want.

 

But in terms of the real world, actual publication history shows that #60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans.

 

haha As an example of why this discussion is taking so long, and is so maddening to all of us with every other post (the ones promoting the other side…), I actually agree with the above … and yet it reads like you have it backwards to me.

 

In my world, the one that I think of as the "real" world -- the ones we fans live in, that DC published comics in, their "Publication History" says #54 to me, and it's the fans today that are demanding that #60 be their first appearance.

 

Totally agree that the fan world has decided 54 is the first appearance. I just think eventually the consensus will shift, as it did with Sgt. Rock, based on actual textual analysis.

[NinjaSealed]

A question to the BB54 supporters just to make things clear. Do you guys think these labels are completely accurate, and could not be put better?

 

BB54: Origin and the first appearance of the teen titans(Robin, Kid Flash, Aqualad.)

 

BB60: 1st appearance of the new wonder girl Donna Troy, who joins the teen titans.

[yoddler]

Two things should be enough (besides DC publishing in comics clearly that 60 WAS the first appearance etc.):

 

If BB60 was never published.... no-one would know the Teen Titans. The Teen Titans would not exist!

 

Simply because they were founded between 54 and 60 with "Wonder Girl as original founding member".

 

 

If 54 was never published, 60 would not have been published.

 

Prove it. Sixty would not have been published with the reference to 54, true. But not published at all? Impossible to prove, but feel free to try.

 

Well, I could say you can't disprove it either, but that would be an equally ridiculous and pointless request... And I'm not sure I understand your logic that the statement is true but impossible to prove? If it's true, then it's true.

 

 

[sfcityduck]

 

Not according to Robin, who says the team formed after B&B 54.

 

 

That's not what Robin says. That you have to make stuff up doesn't support your argument.

[sfcityduck]

A question to the BB54 supporters just to make things clear. Do you guys think these labels are completely accurate, and could not be put better?

 

BB54: Origin and the first appearance of the teen titans(Robin, Kid Flash, Aqualad.)

 

BB60: 1st appearance of the new wonder girl Donna Troy, who joins the teen titans.

 

I'd capitalize "Teen Titans," but otherwise I think that is accurate. I'm a generous soul, though, so I'd probably go with this for BB 60:

 

BB60: 2nd appearance of the Teen Titans. Introduction and first appearance of the new Wonder Girl (Donna Troy), who joins the Teen Titans. First adoption of the team name "Teen Titans."