1st Teen Titans 3 3

[JTLarsen]

Sure enough, just as promised, the very next issue introduced another new team. Has everyone already stocked up on the first appearance of the Metal Men / Atom team in B&B #55?

 

 

If there were hundreds of appearances afterward of the Metal Men/Atom team, then yes, that would be their first appearance.

 

How many hundreds? If that's the definition, it should be specific.

[HighStakesComics]

Sure enough, just as promised, the very next issue introduced another new team. Has everyone already stocked up on the first appearance of the Metal Men / Atom team in B&B #55?

 

 

If there were hundreds of appearances afterward of the Metal Men/Atom team, then yes, that would be their first appearance.

 

No it wouldn't be. You don't even know if a team exists at this point, let alone if they have a name or whom the roster consists of. Best watch yourself, Sir. You are making a very strong argument for the 60.

[nearmint]

Sure enough, just as promised, the very next issue introduced another new team. Has everyone already stocked up on the first appearance of the Metal Men / Atom team in B&B #55?

 

 

If there were hundreds of appearances afterward of the Metal Men/Atom team, then yes, that would be their first appearance.

 

No it wouldn't be. You don't even know if a team exists at this point, let alone if they have a name or whom the roster consists of. Best watch yourself, Sir. You are making a very strong argument for the 60.

 

That's where we fundamentally disagree, as I've said repeatedly in this thread. I don't care when they get a name, and I don't care if we know a team exits at the time that they first gather to defeat a bad guy. Their first adventure is their first appearance.

[AlexanderM]

Sure enough, just as promised, the very next issue introduced another new team. Has everyone already stocked up on the first appearance of the Metal Men / Atom team in B&B #55?

 

 

If there were hundreds of appearances afterward of the Metal Men/Atom team, then yes, that would be their first appearance.

 

No it wouldn't be. You don't even know if a team exists at this point, let alone if they have a name or whom the roster consists of. Best watch yourself, Sir. You are making a very strong argument for the 60.

 

That's where we fundamentally disagree, as I've said repeatedly in this thread. I don't care when they get a name, and I don't care if we know a team exits at the time that they first gather to defeat a bad guy. Their first adventure is their first appearance.

 

That might be called the first Metal Men / Atom team-up. However, if they later form a team (with a name obviously) then that would have another first appearance.

 

Larry Page and Sergey Brin might have sold road-side juice together years before Google exited, but Google was not founded until Google actually got founded - regardless of whether those two had worked together earlier or not.

 

Similarly, some of the people in TT (not even all of people who would later found TT was there) could have worked together earlier than founding TT, but TT was not founded until it was actually founded... which did not happen in 54, but rather happened 'after' that event. Therefore the first appearance of TT logically happened in 60.

 

By the way, the interesting thing is that 54 is actually the origin of TT. The events that took place in 54 prompted them to form TT. Chronologically having the origin before the foundation is like these things happen in real life. However, in comics we have gotten used to this sequence very often being the other way around. A group is introduced, and later the origin (which obviously happened before the foundation) is explained.

Edited September 13, 2015 by AlexanderM

[Lazyboy]

Sure enough, just as promised, the very next issue introduced another new team. Has everyone already stocked up on the first appearance of the Metal Men / Atom team in B&B #55?

 

 

If there were hundreds of appearances afterward of the Metal Men/Atom team, then yes, that would be their first appearance.

 

What difference does that make? It's either the first appearance of a team or it's not the first appearance of a team. (Hint: it's not)

 

The point was that despite sfcityduck's constant references to the generic editorial blurb at the end of 54, it means nothing... as previously pointed out... repeatedly.

[nearmint]

Sure enough, just as promised, the very next issue introduced another new team. Has everyone already stocked up on the first appearance of the Metal Men / Atom team in B&B #55?

 

 

If there were hundreds of appearances afterward of the Metal Men/Atom team, then yes, that would be their first appearance.

 

No it wouldn't be. You don't even know if a team exists at this point, let alone if they have a name or whom the roster consists of. Best watch yourself, Sir. You are making a very strong argument for the 60.

 

That's where we fundamentally disagree, as I've said repeatedly in this thread. I don't care when they get a name, and I don't care if we know a team exits at the time that they first gather to defeat a bad guy. Their first adventure is their first appearance.

 

That might be called the first Metal Men / Atom team-up. However, if they later form a team (with a name obviously) then that would have another first appearance. So, it's all about the name then?

 

Larry Page and Sergey Brin might have sold road-side juice together years before Google exited, but Google was not founded until Google actually got founded - regardless of whether those two had worked together earlier or not. A silly comparison. The three heroes in BB54 are not selling lemonade. They're doing exactly what they did in later adventures, fighting bad guys.

 

Similarly, some of the people in TT (not even all of people who would later found TT was there) could have worked together earlier than founding TT, but TT was not founded until it was actually founded... which did not happen in 54, but rather happened 'after' that event. Therefore the first appearance of TT logically happened in 60. Their first appearance with a name yes, but I've never disputed that. /quote]

[AlexanderM]

With an actual team being formed comes a structure (members and membership), a name et cetera.

 

Just some random friends fighting some threat does not make that a team.

 

They become a team the day they decided "hey, it was nice fighting with you guys - why don't we consider forming a team? Ok, who should be included? Well, Wonder Girl should be a founding member, Robin et cetera..".

 

in 54 there was no team. Those were events that led to the formation of TT later (somewhere in the time between 54 and 60).

 

In a sense, 54 is the first part of JLA 9 (where there is a common threat), and 60 is the later part of JLA 9 (where JLA actually is established).

Edited September 14, 2015 by AlexanderM

[RockMyAmadeus]

Logic and reason seem to be in short supply around here again....

 

Sure enough, just as promised, the very next issue introduced another new team. Has everyone already stocked up on the first appearance of the Metal Men / Atom team in B&B #55?

 

 

If there were hundreds of appearances afterward of the Metal Men/Atom team, then yes, that would be their first appearance.

 

No it wouldn't be. You don't even know if a team exists at this point, let alone if they have a name or whom the roster consists of. Best watch yourself, Sir. You are making a very strong argument for the 60.

 

That's where we fundamentally disagree, as I've said repeatedly in this thread. I don't care when they get a name, and I don't care if we know a team exits at the time that they first gather to defeat a bad guy. Their first adventure is their first appearance.

 

Yes.

[HighStakesComics]

Logic and reason seem to be in short supply around here again....

 

Sure enough, just as promised, the very next issue introduced another new team. Has everyone already stocked up on the first appearance of the Metal Men / Atom team in B&B #55?

 

 

If there were hundreds of appearances afterward of the Metal Men/Atom team, then yes, that would be their first appearance.

 

No it wouldn't be. You don't even know if a team exists at this point, let alone if they have a name or whom the roster consists of. Best watch yourself, Sir. You are making a very strong argument for the 60.

 

That's where we fundamentally disagree, as I've said repeatedly in this thread. I don't care when they get a name, and I don't care if we know a team exits at the time that they first gather to defeat a bad guy. Their first adventure is their first appearance.

 

Yes.

 

Consistency in short supply as well...

[RockMyAmadeus]

I really don't like having to come out and say this, but you're on ignore "HighStakesComics." I would appreciate if you wouldn't reply to me, and make it difficult for me to ignore you by posting attachments of pictures showing my comments from other threads (which can't be ignored.) This is now the second time you've attempted to make an issue of these comments, but I'm not going to discuss it with you.

 

If someone else would like to discuss my comments, I'm more than happy to, but I won't with you. You make these discussions personal, and I'm not interested in going there with you. It's nothing personal, and it would be appreciated if you wouldn't try to engage me.

 

Thanks.

[Broke as a Joke]

Logic and reason seem to be in short supply around here again....

 

Sure enough, just as promised, the very next issue introduced another new team. Has everyone already stocked up on the first appearance of the Metal Men / Atom team in B&B #55?

 

 

If there were hundreds of appearances afterward of the Metal Men/Atom team, then yes, that would be their first appearance.

 

No it wouldn't be. You don't even know if a team exists at this point, let alone if they have a name or whom the roster consists of. Best watch yourself, Sir. You are making a very strong argument for the 60.

 

That's where we fundamentally disagree, as I've said repeatedly in this thread. I don't care when they get a name, and I don't care if we know a team exits at the time that they first gather to defeat a bad guy. Their first adventure is their first appearance.

 

Yes.

 

Consistency in short supply as well...

 

Interesting

[miraclemet]

so with wikipedia being a questionable source is the DC wiki any more valid?

 

cause when they say (on the DC wiki) "Their original founders were Aqualad, Kid Flash, Robin, Speedy and Wonder Girl" it makes me wonder...

 

BB54: KFlash, Robin, Aqualad

BB60: KFlash, Robin, Aqualad, Wonder Girl

 

but what about the 5th founding member Speedy?

 

Speedy wasnt a member until Teen Titans 19. But then how did he help found them? He didnt show up in a Teen Titans-esque book until Teen Titans 4 (though at that point he still wasnt a member apparently), so maybe he helped found the team even though he wasnt a member yet?

 

One could conceivably help found something without being a member of it, but that still means until Speedy's involvement (since he was a "founder") the team was not founded, so it didnt exist... despite being 4 issues into a series.

 

this is why I dont read this thread... it hurts my head.

 

So is TT4 the first "full" appearance of T Titans with everything prior being "partial appearance"?

 

(and really my perspective is, if the marketplace had made their decision, then who cares?)

 

Has the market ever shifted on a first appearance?

(honestly asking, I dont know)

[jimjum12]

New Teen Titans 1 is the first appearance...... everything before that was a series of elaborate failures by D.C. to get it right. Sorry to rain on the parade GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[miraclemet]

New Teen Titans 1 is the first appearance...... everything before that was a series of elaborate failures by D.C. to get it right. Sorry to rain on the parade GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

but how could it be the first appearance of something that didnt exist?

 

because it couldnt exist without the input/presence of all of its founding members, which would include Speedy, who didnt appear 'till TT4.

 

(can we get a whole TT1 vs TT4 argument going to drown out the BB54/60 that's been going on for 100 pages?)

[JTLarsen]

Sure enough, just as promised, the very next issue introduced another new team. Has everyone already stocked up on the first appearance of the Metal Men / Atom team in B&B #55?

 

 

If there were hundreds of appearances afterward of the Metal Men/Atom team, then yes, that would be their first appearance.

 

No it wouldn't be. You don't even know if a team exists at this point, let alone if they have a name or whom the roster consists of. Best watch yourself, Sir. You are making a very strong argument for the 60.

 

That's where we fundamentally disagree, as I've said repeatedly in this thread. I don't care when they get a name, and I don't care if we know a team exits at the time that they first gather to defeat a bad guy. Their first adventure is their first appearance.

 

Well, we actually know NO team exists when they first gather--since Robin tells us the team wasn't formed until after. But I think as long as you're explicit -- as you're being here (I'm not saying you weren't in the past) -- about what you consider a first appearance, I have no problem with that. I don't want people NOT to buy BB 54, I just don't want them surprised/disappointed by what's inside. So, thanks for hanging in there with the discussion and for your willingness to clarify your position and criteria.

[JTLarsen]

I really don't like having to come out and say this, but you're on ignore "HighStakesComics." I would appreciate if you wouldn't reply to me, and make it difficult for me to ignore you by posting attachments of pictures showing my comments from other threads (which can't be ignored.) This is now the second time you've attempted to make an issue of these comments, but I'm not going to discuss it with you.

 

If someone else would like to discuss my comments, I'm more than happy to, but I won't with you. You make these discussions personal, and I'm not interested in going there with you. It's nothing personal, and it would be appreciated if you wouldn't try to engage me.

 

Thanks.

 

Not trying to stir anything up, but, yeah, I would be curious to hear your thoughts on your previous comments and how/whether you reconcile them with your position now. Thanks.

[JTLarsen]

so with wikipedia being a questionable source is the DC wiki any more valid?

 

cause when they say (on the DC wiki) "Their original founders were Aqualad, Kid Flash, Robin, Speedy and Wonder Girl" it makes me wonder...

 

BB54: KFlash, Robin, Aqualad

BB60: KFlash, Robin, Aqualad, Wonder Girl

 

but what about the 5th founding member Speedy?

 

Speedy wasnt a member until Teen Titans 19. But then how did he help found them? He didnt show up in a Teen Titans-esque book until Teen Titans 4 (though at that point he still wasnt a member apparently), so maybe he helped found the team even though he wasnt a member yet?

 

One could conceivably help found something without being a member of it, but that still means until Speedy's involvement (since he was a "founder") the team was not founded, so it didnt exist... despite being 4 issues into a series.

 

this is why I dont read this thread... it hurts my head.

 

So is TT4 the first "full" appearance of T Titans with everything prior being "partial appearance"?

 

(and really my perspective is, if the marketplace had made their decision, then who cares?)

 

Has the market ever shifted on a first appearance?

(honestly asking, I dont know)

 

Sgt. Rock is probably the best-known example. Other first appearances have been and are being debated, too, though.

[miraclemet]

Has the market ever shifted on a first appearance?

(honestly asking, I dont know)

 

Sgt. Rock is probably the best-known example. Other first appearances have been and are being debated, too, though.

 

What did they think it was before OAAW83?

[sfcityduck]

 

Well, we actually know NO team exists when they first gather--since Robin tells us the team wasn't formed until after. But I think as long as you're explicit -- as you're being here (I'm not saying you weren't in the past) -- about what you consider a first appearance, I have no problem with that. I don't want people NOT to buy BB 54, I just don't want them surprised/disappointed by what's inside. So, thanks for hanging in there with the discussion and for your willingness to clarify your position and criteria.

 

I'm really getting tired of this misinformation.

 

Robin never says: "The Teen Titans were formed after BB 54."

 

Instead, he says: "Teen Titans is a group of junior crime-fighters I set up after Kid Flash, Aqualad and I helped the kids of Hatton Corners!*"

 

See the "*"? Below that quote, the editorial box cites to "* See Brave and the Bold 54"

 

A very reasonable interpretation of that text is that when Robin talks about the formation of the Teen Titans he is saying that they were set up immediately after and as a result of the Hatton Corners adventure set forth in B&B 54. And that is clearly DC's editorial position because to support Robin's comment about the setting up of the Teen Titans they tell readers to "See Brave and the Bold 54." DC, of course, reinforced this conclusion in Teen Titans 1 when they started the "brief history of the Teen Titans" with a discussion of B&B 54 and explained that B&B 60 was only the "next time" the group appeared with the "addition" of Wonder Girl.

[sfcityduck]

so with wikipedia being a questionable source is the DC wiki any more valid?

 

The DC wiki is not run by DC. It is run by wikia. Anyone can edit it.

 

Here's what it actually says right now:

 

Origins

 

The Teen Titans were a team of young super-heroes who were the former sidekicks of older, and more experienced heroes. They first came together when Robin, Aqualad and Kid Flash responded to an emergency taking place in the hamlet village known as Hatton Corners. There they fought a mysterious villain calling himself Mister Twister. After defeating Mister Twister and robbing him of his elemental powers, the three young heroes decided to band together as the Teen Titans. [1] This decision was supported by their respective mentors, Batman, Aquaman and the Flash.

 

Their first actual mission as the Teen Titans also yielded the team’s first recruit – Wonder Girl.

 

[fn. 1 Brave and the Bold 54]

 

DC Wiki