1st Teen Titans 3 3

[VintageComics]

I cannot believe that this thread is 92 pages.....

 

 

I said that at 78. Let's just say the results of this thread and the consensus on which was the first TT will have been thoroughly explored.

 

I only see 31 pages...

[VintageComics]

I cannot believe that this thread is 92 pages.....

 

 

Blame our very own superhero, the Automatic Man (a.k.a. sfcityduck).

 

That's unfair. There's more than one person who agrees with him (and counting it seems).

[HighStakesComics]

I cannot believe that this thread is 92 pages.....

 

 

Blame our very own superhero, the Automatic Man (a.k.a. sfcityduck).

 

That's unfair. There's more than one person who agrees with him (and counting it seems).

 

Don't get cocky. I've got panels?

[adamstrange]

I cannot believe that this thread is 92 pages.....

 

 

Internet is undefeated.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I cannot believe that this thread is 92 pages.....

 

 

I said that at 78. Let's just say the results of this thread and the consensus on which was the first TT will have been thoroughly explored.

 

I only see 31 pages...

 

37 for me.

[Aman619]

21 for me... And I'm still voting 54. You don't get to 60 without 54. And 60 can never be 54 because 54 did it first.

[RockMyAmadeus]

21 for me... And I'm still voting 54. You don't get to 60 without 54. And 60 can never be 54 because 54 did it first.

 

That pretty much sums it up.

[Lazyboy]

You don't get to 60 without 54.

 

Why not? According to sfcityduck, a letter that appeared in an earlier comic requesting a junior Justice League and an editorial mandate to make it happen are the keys to the creation of the Teen Titans.

 

One would think that with so much lead time it would be possible to create an issue that actually featured a formed and named team. After all, it had already been done with the JLA in the very same title.

 

BB 28 started off by revealing the roster and name of the team, then continued by revealing their organizational structure, including team communication signals and a very impressive HQ.

 

Is there any reason the exact same thing that was so successful for the JLA couldn't have worked for the Teen Titans? I guess the adult heroes had previously met and/or teamed up in smaller groups, but the sidekicks hadn't?

[VintageComics]

21 for me... And I'm still voting 54. You don't get to 60 without 54. And 60 can never be 54 because 54 did it first.

 

Do you know anything about comics?

[JTLarsen]

And by the way, the way the TT was formed was utterly formulaic AND hit you over the head with it -- Robin expositions the hell out of it in BB 60. So it's quite clear that, at the time, the elements you find sufficient fifty years later were NOT at the time considered sufficient. Which is why Robin gave them to us in BB 60.

 

The 'over the top expositioning' by Robin is just the editorial team trying to give the team a 'grand unveiling' because they missed that opportunity in #54. It's just dripping with editorial spin and them saving face.

 

But it's still all based on #54 when they first met. They were teens, they were titans. They just weren't the Teen Titans.

 

 

A word balloon is hardly a grand unveiling. My point is that I was characterized as requiring a certain formula for the creation of a team. I'm just pointing out that DC seemed to feel that was necessary, too, for a team to exist -- so they had Robin establish that it had happened (after BB 54) so the existence of the Teen Titans in BB 60 would make sense, in light of the fact that no team was formed in BB 54. And, no, it's not "based on" 54. It's based on events that, as Robin says, transpired "after" 54. Did they meet in 54? I dunno. Maybe. But they didn't form a team, which is why DC felt the need to explain how and when (after 54) they did form a team.

[JTLarsen]

Then that would be just another retcon, which would make Teen Titans 53 the actual first appearance.

 

BB #54 was not intended to be the 1st TT but in hindsight it ended up being the 1st TT after they appeared in a 2nd issue in #60.

 

 

Roy, I hate to disagree with you, but the creators have said that the editorial directive that led to BB 54 was to do a "Junior Justice League" adventure. DC had, in fact, suggested in the letters column of BB years before that a JJLA adventure would be forthcoming in response to fan demand. Haney's recollection is that it was Kashdan who made the directive. Haney said in 1996:

 

"I think it was George Kashdan who first said: 'How about a series starring the kid superheroes?' and that later I was the one who came up with the name Teen Titans. ... It was no great earth shaking creative stroke, taking some already existing house characters and combining them into a team...."

 

Not that it matters, but when did they say that directive led specifically to 54? (The reason it doesn't matter, of course, is that regardless of any directive, no team is actually formed or introduced in 54. Hence the lack of a panel from 54 showing such a team.)

[JTLarsen]

 

And your definition of "team," by the way, makes Green Lantern-Green Arrow an official superhero team, along with Superman-Flash. So, no, I don't need definitions to be formulaic. But they do need to be consistent. Your definition of a team is so loose it would include any team-up that occurs more than once. If you stand by that, fine, but people should know that's what you mean when you say the Teen Titans appear in BB 54.

 

What the heck is an "official" superhero team? Do they get a membership badge? Or is the title of a comic or continuing series enough? By any measure, Green Lantern-Green Arrow was an official superhero team. Have you heard of GL-GA 76? Read the title. It is worth money for a reason.

 

Superman-Flash did not have a steady series of adventures, they had very sporadic cross-overs.

 

Superman-Batman, on the other hand, did have a monthly series of adventures starting with World's Finest 71 (again a "key" worth a premium). Of course, the comic collecting community recognizes Superman 76 and World's Finest 94 as notable for telling the origin of the Superman-Batman team (and, hey, check out the cover of WF 94).

 

And I won't even go into Power Man & Iron Fist, etc. at Marvel.

 

Where was the Green Lantern-Green Arrow headquarters again? And where was the headquarters of the Superman-Batman team? Were there lots of membership changes with any of these teams? And how "steady" does a "team"'s adventures need to be for them to be a team? Are you really saying that Superman-Flash would have been magically transformed into an "official" superhero team if they'd gotten a monthly team-up book? What about bi-monthly? What about a mini-series?

 

Most comic-book fans know the difference between a superhero team and an official superhero team. Batman and Robin are a partnership, hero and sidekick. Superman-Batman and Green Lantern-Green Arrow are equal partnerships, "teams" in the generic sense of the word. Two friends who play basketball together regularly are not a basketball team in the same sense that the Knicks are. Green Lantern-Green Arrow is not a superhero team the same way the JLA is. And, yes, sometimes groups have insignia or other signifiers of membership. (Oh, here's wikipedia's list of DC superhero teams: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_superhero_teams_and_groups#DC_Comics. Note that GL-GA and Superman-Batman are nowhere to be found.)

 

And by the way, your erroneous assumption that I haven't read GL 76 aside, it's not worth the money it's worth because it's the first appearance of the GL-GA "team."

[JTLarsen]

I think the honest thing to do when claiming first appearance status ... is to explain the applicable factors, as ... comics.org does.

 

Really? Where do they do that?

 

I'm seeing a lot of misinformation on this thread and not a lot of clarification.

 

Did you go to comics.org? If you had, you'd have gotten the clarification. Here it is. Comics.org's listing for BB 54 clarifies its relationship to the Teen Titans with the following:

 

"Indexer Notes

"Kid Flash, Robin and Aqualad - later to become the Teen Titans."

[VintageComics]

Where was the Green Lantern-Green Arrow headquarters again? And where was the headquarters of the Superman-Batman team? Were there lots of membership changes with any of these teams?

 

You keep ascribing new criteria to what constitutes a team. So now they need a headquarters? Membership changes?

 

All that's needed of a team is that they are teamed up together and over a period of time, IMO.

 

I'd have to reread Avengers #1 as it's been a while but is there a headquarters in issue #1?

[JTLarsen]

Then that would be just another retcon, which would make Teen Titans 53 the actual first appearance.

 

BB #54 was not intended to be the 1st TT but in hindsight it ended up being the 1st TT after they appeared in a 2nd issue in #60.

 

 

Roy, I hate to disagree with you, but the creators have said that the editorial directive that led to BB 54 was to do a "Junior Justice League" adventure. DC had, in fact, suggested in the letters column of BB years before that a JJLA adventure would be forthcoming in response to fan demand. Haney's recollection is that it was Kashdan who made the directive. Haney said in 1996:

 

"I think it was George Kashdan who first said: 'How about a series starring the kid superheroes?' and that later I was the one who came up with the name Teen Titans. ... It was no great earth shaking creative stroke, taking some already existing house characters and combining them into a team...."

 

Right, I meant that it was not the 1st TT in name as the name had not yet been created.

 

Most of the opposition to BB #54 being the 1st TT seems to stem from the name not yet being announced as the TT in BB #54.

 

The editorial intent was there, the characters were there, the team up was there - the only thing missing was the name.

 

This is a stunningly poor summary of the counter-argument. The counter-argument is by no means based on the lack of a name. It's based on the lack of a team. They at no point contemplate let alone decide to work together again, let alone to form some kind of group that will persist over time. The name is irrelevant. The lack of creating a team is the point. Please characterize the argument correctly in the future.

[JTLarsen]

If #60 had not introduced the Teen Titans, #54 would just be another team-up like #53 or #55. There is nothing in #54 that sets it apart from the other team-up issues.

 

Except that the same people reappear, only now under a team name. Which is why #54 is different than #53 or #55.

 

 

You're missing the point again. They reappear AFTER 54. Crimebuster's whole point, as he said explicitly, is that there is nothing "IN" 54 that sets it apart. Your disagreement with him actually proves him right -- it's the REAPPEARANCE (which, obvi, happens OUTSIDE 54) that sets it apart.

[JTLarsen]

 

Any importance that #54 has was retroactively imbued on it by the introduction of the Teen Titans in #60.

 

Yep, it's #60s fault that #54 is so important. It's a real conundrum.

 

I don't think it's a conundrum. 60 is their first appearance, and 54 is very important. Voila! No conundrum!

[JTLarsen]

21 for me... And I'm still voting 54. You don't get to 60 without 54. And 60 can never be 54 because 54 did it first.

 

That pretty much sums it up.

 

Agree that that sums it up. And by the same argument and standards, Superman 76 is the first appearance of the Justice League. You can't get to BB 28 without Batman and Superman teaming up, which Superman 76 did first.

[JTLarsen]

Where was the Green Lantern-Green Arrow headquarters again? And where was the headquarters of the Superman-Batman team? Were there lots of membership changes with any of these teams?

 

You keep ascribing new criteria to what constitutes a team. So now they need a headquarters? Membership changes?

 

All that's needed of a team is that they are teamed up together and over a period of time, IMO.

 

I'd have to reread Avengers #1 as it's been a while but is there a headquarters in issue #1?

 

Those aren't new criteria, they're examples of the kinds of things that differentiate a Superhero Team from a recurring partnership or team-up. If, in your opinion, all that's needed for a superhero team to come into being is that they team up together over a period of time, then your list of DC superhero teams should include:

 

All-Star Squadron

Batman and the Outsiders

Batman and Superman

Batman and the Teen Titans

Green Lantern Corps

Green Lantern-Green Arrow

Justice League

Superman and Batgirl

Superman and Flash

Young All-Stars

 

All of these -- and MANY more -- are DC superheroes who have teamed up together over a period of time. So, at last we have agreement, if THAT is the definition of a superhero team, then, yes, BB 54 is the first appearance of a superhero team that later decided to form a superhero team called the Teen Titans.

[StingerMcK]

54 has an ugly cover. 60 does not have an ugly cover. 60 has a Teen Titans logo.

 

So 60 for me.