MattTheDuck Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 On 9/13/2021 at 5:39 PM, Sweet Lou 14 said: Hey Matt -- what you're describing is exactly how all the auction houses work, including not only ComicLink, ComicConnect and Heritage but also eBay. In this scenario, the person bidding $400 has no idea your max bid is $500. They just know they need to beat the "high bid" of $350, and their $400 bid is valid if it does so by whatever the minimum "increment" is (as bids get higher, the amount by which you need to exceed the high bid generally increases -- beating it by just $1 isn't good enough). So when I place a CL bid that's below someone's Max bid, I get a "we're sorry, your bid isn't high enough" or some such notification, so I know I have to either bid more or be out. What I don't get is why that bid is then logged as "good" and the next incremental bid goes up that either I or the next person has to make. At a live auction, you don't have a bid at $1000 and have people saying "bid $700" and the auctioneer saying "you're out." Everyone there knows what the highest bid is at all times. JTLarsen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKJ Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 (edited) On 9/13/2021 at 8:31 PM, MattTheDuck said: I don't have any real complaints with CL. The one that seemed hinky to me was a book where my bid was $350, my max bid was $500. Somehow, a $400 bid was allowed after my $350 bid (even though you could argue it was not actually the "highest bid") so I had to pay $450. It seems to me that in order to make a bid, you ought to have to make a bid higher than the current max bid. The way this happened wasn't "unfair," but it does provide an incentive for shill bids that drive up the cost for whoever has the max high bid. Especially on CL you can bump the bid up, all auctions work like that. Since it is a proxy bid you are describing, someone saw the last competing bid at 350, said I will do 400, the auction house basically says I have 400 now 450, since you committed to 500 the next increment goes to you, the bidder would have had to offer more than the next increment to even register the bid. Here is a copy of one I won that the old bid held, if you look it looks like I re bid at at 11:10:44 but that is my old bid holding the next spot, it was also when it ended, so if it was CC or HA I am sure I would have lost. Current Bid My Max Bid Starts Ends Time Left Bid Statu $8,401 $8,711 2/11/2021 3/1/2021 YOU WON 3/1/2021 11:10:44 PM ET $8,401 3/1/2021 11:10:44 PM ET $8,301 3/1/2021 11:10:41 PM ET $8,201 3/1/2021 11:10:30 PM ET $8,111 3/1/2021 11:10:20 PM ET $8,001 3/1/2021 11:07:54 PM ET $7,755 3/1/2021 11:07:54 PM ET $7,466 3/1/2021 11:07:48 PM ET $7,366 3/1/2021 11:07:48 PM ET $7,266 Edited September 14, 2021 by PKJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post alexgross.com Posted September 14, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted September 14, 2021 (edited) On 9/13/2021 at 5:12 PM, PKJ said: Of all the houses CL for me has been clean, that is due to the hard close/end times. I have won several books with reasonable bids placed days prior as well as those I jumped in late. This year has been more on the high side then in previous years but I have won several books this year with decent room left before it reached my high bid. I have won with "tracking" bids on some random SA books this year still. With HA and CC the bidding continues until someone folds, I have never won a HA auction with an early bid so I just wait now until the final and even still you feel like someone is pushing it to the limit. Bidding on some books this week, I noticed a couple patterns. Until a point you could tell there was 3-4 bidders. I was jumping in when it got to the final call, then I would be outbid by one bid over and over, Out of 16 books, 12 were won one bid higher than mine. The only book I won I got in late and held on. i agree with you, having a hard end time seems to minimize the chances of two egos battling beyond reason, as well as some shill bidder from the auction house pumping you at the end to milk a little more. and though i agree with @MGsimba77 that it's easy to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon, i urge you and everyone not to pre-bid on HA, or you are likely to hit your max before live bidding occurs. based on personal experience, and much anecdotal evidence from multiple trusted dealers, i am convinced that on the bigger books, they will always push you to your max bid so that you are highly motivated to bid again at the end against yourself to win the book. as @UncleBEN says, if anyone has earned some mistrust, it's HA. Edited September 14, 2021 by alexgross.com Cosmic_Shel, WolverineX, PKJ and 5 others 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGsimba77 Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 (edited) Very true about pre bidding. I hate participating in auctions because they're so nerve wracking. Whenever I have its because I reeeely wanted it. The way I approach it is I mentally get ready to go above and beyond the all time high but only at the very end and not a moment sooner. Only do this if you're comfortable "over paying" for what you feel is worth it. If I'm throwing a hail mary I'll put in what I'm willing to pay well before the end. I've only lost 2 auctions that I was going all in on, one on Clink by a hair on a cva book and one on Ebay on an ASM 332 9.8 in which looking back they did me a favor. One time I got caught in a bidding war on CC with a 9.6 IM going for a ridiculous price. It went for like 5 extended sessions. This was years ago and I haven't seen a comparable copy since even though I overpayed. I don't care I'm not going to ever sell it. Mostly I haven't over payed but a few times things got ugly. But if you want to glean how badly someone is charging for it you can sometimes tell on Ebay by checking the bid history. When the same bidder is having automatic bids repeatedly topping others that's an obvious sign someone's pining. Anyway I try and avoid auctions to keep my stress level down Edited September 14, 2021 by MGsimba77 PKJ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aman619 Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 The winning bid is ALWAYS one bid higher ISNT it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexgross.com Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 On 9/13/2021 at 8:19 PM, Aman619 said: The winning bid is ALWAYS one bid higher ISNT it? without a shill, it's rarely one bid higher thsn myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microchip Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 On 9/14/2021 at 10:12 AM, PKJ said: Of all the houses CL for me has been clean, that is due to the hard close/end times. I have won several books with reasonable bids placed days prior as well as those I jumped in late. This year has been more on the high side then in previous years but I have won several books this year with decent room left before it reached my high bid. I have won with "tracking" bids on some random SA books this year still. With HA and CC the bidding continues until someone folds, I have never won a HA auction with an early bid so I just wait now until the final and even still you feel like someone is pushing it to the limit. Bidding on some books this week, I noticed a couple patterns. Until a point you could tell there was 3-4 bidders. I was jumping in when it got to the final call, then I would be outbid by one bid over and over, Out of 16 books, 12 were won one bid higher than mine. The only book I won I got in late and held on. CL gets the nod for cleanest house to chase big books on. I've won books in all sorts of manner there too, Tracker bids, last few seconds bomber bids, and using their bidding increment system too my advantage. The last one has won me a few key books... but importantly so, lost as well. The sequence of the books listed has meant I've seen competitive bidders "learn" and adapt to my price points on books in the same run and grade that I've chased. Out of the 12 books you lost by one bid, how did the prices overall sit on those books... close to market, over, under? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKJ Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 On 9/14/2021 at 4:47 AM, Microchip said: CL gets the nod for cleanest house to chase big books on. I've won books in all sorts of manner there too, Tracker bids, last few seconds bomber bids, and using their bidding increment system too my advantage. The last one has won me a few key books... but importantly so, lost as well. The sequence of the books listed has meant I've seen competitive bidders "learn" and adapt to my price points on books in the same run and grade that I've chased. Out of the 12 books you lost by one bid, how did the prices overall sit on those books... close to market, over, under? Agree 100%. Only a Flash book I lost had prior market value established and it was lower than market. The others were first time to market so the market was set on those sales. Microchip 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKJ Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 (edited) On 9/13/2021 at 11:19 PM, Aman619 said: The winning bid is ALWAYS one bid higher ISNT it? I was referencing how some of my losses were one bid higher than my own. But it is not always one bid higher. HA even explains when they start an in person auction how all bids are gathered. There are rare cases were there is a tie and the same bid is submitted, in that case the first person who bid the amount wins if no one bumps the bid up. An auction cannot close in a tie, therefore, in the event two users have placed the same proxy bid amount, the user who placed the proxy bid first will win the auction. Edited September 14, 2021 by PKJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexgross.com Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 On 9/14/2021 at 4:36 AM, PKJ said: An auction cannot close in a tie, therefore, in the event two users have placed the same proxy bid amount, the user who placed the proxy bid first will win the auction. precisely why heritage can legally (in texas) match whatever your proxy bid was before it even goes live, daring you to bid more for fear of losing the book. no matter what ridiculously high proxy bid you may place in advance, you can be sure it will be pushed all the way before the live session begins. see attached gpa image. anything stand out? back in 2019, i went agressively after this silver surfer 1 9.4 with white pages. i proxy bid 8k. previous high sale had been $6,700. and remember this was normal times, not like now where prices are doubling within weeks. 8k would easily have won the book. but lo and behold, bidding goes live and i'm high bidder exactly at my max of 8k. before my book comes up, i decide i have to bid more to be sure to win it, even though i am already far beyond a reasonable price. i bid 9k in the live session, and wouldn't you know, that's exactly what i won it for (BP included in these totals). one of my main competitors publicly bowed out at 7k vis instagram. please don't tell me i was in a bidding war with anyone other than heritage themselves unless you personally bid $8k or higher for that book. many dealers have told me this same thing happened to them. my purchase finally panned out this year. but i'll NEVER proxy bid there again. nor should you. musicmeta, zosocane and Microchip 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bird Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 On 9/14/2021 at 4:40 PM, alexgross.com said: i'll NEVER proxy bid there again. nor should you. why show your cards early? If you want something, try to be ready to bid live and stick to your # alexgross.com and PKJ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microchip Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 On 9/15/2021 at 7:09 AM, Bird said: why show your cards early? If you want something, try to be ready to bid live and stick to your # That kinda misses the point by a country mile. You shouldn't have to adjust your strategy just to counteract the auction house. Crooked isn't a sliding curve. PopKulture 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bird Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 On 9/14/2021 at 7:07 PM, Microchip said: That kinda misses the point by a country mile. You shouldn't have to adjust your strategy just to counteract the auction house. Crooked isn't a sliding curve. I was speaking to proxy vs live bidding missing the point as far as the whole thing being crooked...well, I am reminded of Hyman Roth goldust40 and Microchip 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microchip Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 On 9/15/2021 at 9:13 AM, Bird said: I was speaking to proxy vs live bidding missing the point as far as the whole thing being crooked...well, I am reminded of Hyman Roth True that. The really concerning thing, are those not aware of HA's reputation, and their operating methods. Caveat emptor applies immensely here. How many years have we seen grading threads, showing bumped up grades on books going through HA. I've taken a look at Halperin's book collection, and mentally noted, never chase those books on HA. The same goes for his art collection. alexgross.com, WolverineX and Bird 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microchip Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 On 9/14/2021 at 9:36 PM, PKJ said: I was referencing how some of my losses were one bid higher than my own. But it is not always one bid higher. HA even explains when they start an in person auction how all bids are gathered. There are rare cases were there is a tie and the same bid is submitted, in that case the first person who bid the amount wins if no one bumps the bid up. An auction cannot close in a tie, therefore, in the event two users have placed the same proxy bid amount, the user who placed the proxy bid first will win the auction. That must explain a result on CL that puzzled me. I didn't have any concerns that the result was kosher, just the how of it. I had an auction where my top bid amount was the exactly winning amount. Either my final bid was exactly one increment above the next bidder, the same as the other bidder, but first, or I eclipsed the next bidder by a dollar and the clock ran out. PKJ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexgross.com Posted September 15, 2021 Share Posted September 15, 2021 On 9/14/2021 at 4:19 PM, Microchip said: True that. The really concerning thing, are those not aware of HA's reputation, and their operating methods. Caveat emptor applies immensely here. How many years have we seen grading threads, showing bumped up grades on books going through HA. I've taken a look at Halperin's book collection, and mentally noted, never chase those books on HA. The same goes for his art collection. half the boardies can't even write correct english, like the comics general thread ''ARE PRICES STILL CLIMBING OR HAVE THEY EASE UP A BIT???" and here you're dropping CAVEAT EMPTOR. i like it. and heritage should probably use CAVEAT EMPTOR as their motto, emblazoned across their website homepage. piper, Microchip, Turnando and 1 other 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bird Posted September 15, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted September 15, 2021 On 9/14/2021 at 9:20 PM, alexgross.com said: and here you're dropping CAVEAT EMPTOR. i like it. we all learned this phrase at the same time...when Greg Brady tried to sell that used car he never should have bought in the first place! alexgross.com, jimjum12, KPR Comics and 2 others 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divad Posted September 24, 2021 Share Posted September 24, 2021 It seems that early appearances of Dr. Doom are experiencing upward movement due to some speculation . . . even lower grade copies. Kevin.J 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimik Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 On 9/24/2021 at 3:18 PM, divad said: It seems that early appearances of Dr. Doom are experiencing upward movement due to some speculation . . . even lower grade copies. And SS/Galactus as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Sweet Lou 14 Posted September 25, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted September 25, 2021 On 9/24/2021 at 5:18 PM, divad said: It seems that early appearances of Dr. Doom are experiencing upward movement due to some speculation . . . even lower grade copies. Which ones? Larryw7, silverseeker, iggy and 17 others 19 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
