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Pedigree explanation

Started by jmh722,

54 posts in this topic

Doktor

Doktor

Posted
Posted
I have a feeling, if a major auction house down the line decides to denote a pedigree designation on a large collection with a high price tag that contains a large bronze presence, it's possible that this definition will change again.

 

Heritage has already sold 800 Don/Maggie Thompson bronze age books. There are thousands of bronze age pedigree books from other pedigrees as well. No one is disputing the value of those books. It's just to get a pedigree designation, you need an anchor in pre-collector era books. I think that's perfectly reasonable. There have to be hundreds of high grade collections from the 1970s and thousands from the 1980s. There's nothing wrong with those books (I collect the hell out of the 1980s) it's just a different thing than someone having a high grade collection from 1964.

 

 

Heritage, IMO, isn't a major auction house.

 

I'm talking about one of the pretentious large NYC or London auction houses denoting a "pedigree" as part of the sale. One of those places that won't even return a phone call about items that'll sell for less than many thousands of dollars. If one of those places starts labeling pedigrees, places like CGC will follow suit (though likely with record-keeping requirements attached)

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rob_react

rob_react

Posted
Posted
I have a feeling, if a major auction house down the line decides to denote a pedigree designation on a large collection with a high price tag that contains a large bronze presence, it's possible that this definition will change again.

 

Heritage has already sold 800 Don/Maggie Thompson bronze age books. There are thousands of bronze age pedigree books from other pedigrees as well. No one is disputing the value of those books. It's just to get a pedigree designation, you need an anchor in pre-collector era books. I think that's perfectly reasonable. There have to be hundreds of high grade collections from the 1970s and thousands from the 1980s. There's nothing wrong with those books (I collect the hell out of the 1980s) it's just a different thing than someone having a high grade collection from 1964.

 

 

Heritage, IMO, isn't a major auction house.

 

I'm talking about one of the pretentious large NYC or London auction houses denoting a "pedigree" as part of the sale. One of those places that won't even return a phone call about items that'll sell for less than many thousands of dollars. If one of those places starts labeling pedigrees, places like CGC will follow suit (though likely with record-keeping requirements attached)

 

Huh? Heritage is by far the largest comic auction house and would have more power over CGC than Sothebys or Christies ever would if either decided to get back into comics. Also, as Heritage is proud to point out they're the "world's third largest auction house." So if they're not "major", then there is no major auction house that handles comics.

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revat

revat

Posted
Posted
I have a feeling, if a major auction house down the line decides to denote a pedigree designation on a large collection with a high price tag that contains a large bronze presence, it's possible that this definition will change again.

 

Heritage has already sold 800 Don/Maggie Thompson bronze age books. There are thousands of bronze age pedigree books from other pedigrees as well. No one is disputing the value of those books. It's just to get a pedigree designation, you need an anchor in pre-collector era books. I think that's perfectly reasonable. There have to be hundreds of high grade collections from the 1970s and thousands from the 1980s. There's nothing wrong with those books (I collect the hell out of the 1980s) it's just a different thing than someone having a high grade collection from 1964.

 

 

Heritage, IMO, isn't a major auction house.

 

I'm talking about one of the pretentious large NYC or London auction houses denoting a "pedigree" as part of the sale. One of those places that won't even return a phone call about items that'll sell for less than many thousands of dollars. If one of those places starts labeling pedigrees, places like CGC will follow suit (though likely with record-keeping requirements attached)

 

Huh? Heritage is by far the largest comic auction house and would have more power over CGC than Sothebys or Christies ever would if either decided to get back into comics. Also, as Heritage is proud to point out they're the "world's third largest auction house." So if they're not "major", then there is no major auction house that handles comics.

 

if you're not first, you're last. Shake and Bake!

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Doktor

Doktor

Posted
Posted
I have a feeling, if a major auction house down the line decides to denote a pedigree designation on a large collection with a high price tag that contains a large bronze presence, it's possible that this definition will change again.

 

Heritage has already sold 800 Don/Maggie Thompson bronze age books. There are thousands of bronze age pedigree books from other pedigrees as well. No one is disputing the value of those books. It's just to get a pedigree designation, you need an anchor in pre-collector era books. I think that's perfectly reasonable. There have to be hundreds of high grade collections from the 1970s and thousands from the 1980s. There's nothing wrong with those books (I collect the hell out of the 1980s) it's just a different thing than someone having a high grade collection from 1964.

 

 

Heritage, IMO, isn't a major auction house.

 

I'm talking about one of the pretentious large NYC or London auction houses denoting a "pedigree" as part of the sale. One of those places that won't even return a phone call about items that'll sell for less than many thousands of dollars. If one of those places starts labeling pedigrees, places like CGC will follow suit (though likely with record-keeping requirements attached)

 

Huh? Heritage is by far the largest comic auction house and would have more power over CGC than Sothebys or Christies ever would if either decided to get back into comics. Also, as Heritage is proud to point out they're the "world's third largest auction house." So if they're not "major", then there is no major auction house that handles comics.

 

Eh, I've never viewed them as a large auction house. A good online auction house & a step up from eBay, and a good comic auction house, but not a major auction house.

 

And their claim to be the 3rd largest may be accurate, but how they define largest might also put eBay as THE largest & while I don't know about you, I wouldn't consider eBay to be a "major auction house" by any stretch. I dunno. I think the confusion might be that you're looking at it as "comic auction house" while I'm talking about "auction house". Your category is a lot more niche than mine.

 

I mean, that's cool. If they are really that big and prestigious, great. But I don't see it & I don't put them on the same level with a Sotheby's or Christie's by any stretch.

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rob_react

rob_react

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Posted

No one is saying that comics from the 1970s, 1980s or 1990s and on aren't valuable. It's just that there are hundreds of high grade original owner collections from the Overstreet era. People are already giving the stink-eye to some of the newer Silver Age pedigrees which are marginal. If we created 200 Bronze/Copper pedigrees it would render the term meaningless.

 

The people who do not like some of the SA pedigrees are those that live to much in a past that is seen through rose colored glasses they refuse to remove. This type of thinking is what will eventually make pedigrees meaningless on their own as they die out and no one from any generation past theirs will even know what a pedigree was.

 

I don't understand what you're saying here. People are critical of newer pedigrees like Savannah (page quality and preservation,) Rocky Mountain/Sucsha News (lack of major keys- I don't even track them here) for legit reasons. Being critical of the designation strengthens the designation for pedigrees that survive the scrutiny.

 

Even with the above; I can accept that I am on the opposite and short side of the argument (and will change no ones mind). What I just cannot accept is that with the current pedigrees there books that were collected by these original owners that edge into the late 80's and early 90's. These books are all but removed from the pedigree designation and the collection even though they should qualify. The stance of CGC is that even though they were part of the original collection they are just ignored for no other reason than a 30 year old book is just to "new" and relegated to non-existence.

 

I actually agree that the notation should continue as long as the provenance is there. I would prefer all the Don/Maggie Thompson books that have the designation. I own about 20 "official" books from the pedigree and then another few that are too late for the designation.

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newshane

newshane

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Posted

I definitely consider Heritage to be a major auction house.

 

I don't see how you couldn't. Go look at some numbers.

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rob_react

rob_react

Posted
Posted
I have a feeling, if a major auction house down the line decides to denote a pedigree designation on a large collection with a high price tag that contains a large bronze presence, it's possible that this definition will change again.

 

Heritage has already sold 800 Don/Maggie Thompson bronze age books. There are thousands of bronze age pedigree books from other pedigrees as well. No one is disputing the value of those books. It's just to get a pedigree designation, you need an anchor in pre-collector era books. I think that's perfectly reasonable. There have to be hundreds of high grade collections from the 1970s and thousands from the 1980s. There's nothing wrong with those books (I collect the hell out of the 1980s) it's just a different thing than someone having a high grade collection from 1964.

 

 

Heritage, IMO, isn't a major auction house.

 

I'm talking about one of the pretentious large NYC or London auction houses denoting a "pedigree" as part of the sale. One of those places that won't even return a phone call about items that'll sell for less than many thousands of dollars. If one of those places starts labeling pedigrees, places like CGC will follow suit (though likely with record-keeping requirements attached)

 

Huh? Heritage is by far the largest comic auction house and would have more power over CGC than Sothebys or Christies ever would if either decided to get back into comics. Also, as Heritage is proud to point out they're the "world's third largest auction house." So if they're not "major", then there is no major auction house that handles comics.

 

Eh, I've never viewed them as a large auction house. A good online auction house & a step up from eBay, and a good comic auction house, but not a major auction house.

 

And their claim to be the 3rd largest may be accurate, but how they define largest might also put eBay as THE largest & while I don't know about you, I wouldn't consider eBay to be a "major auction house" by any stretch. I dunno. I think the confusion might be that you're looking at it as "comic auction house" while I'm talking about "auction house". Your category is a lot more niche than mine.

 

I mean, that's cool. If they are really that big and prestigious, great. But I don't see it & I don't put them on the same level with a Sotheby's or Christie's by any stretch.

 

Your perception differs from reality. They define themselves as third behind Sotheby's and Christies. As do these guys

 

Heritage Auctions is the world’s largest collectibles house. Pretty impressive for a company born in 1976. Based in Dallas, Texas, it specializes in U.S. and world coins, Western art, vintage comic books and comic art, jewelry and watches, rare books and manuscripts, Civil War memorabilia, space memorabilia, and much more.

 

Heritage Auction’s earnings for the year 2013 were nearly $917 million. Some of its most impressive sales were $1.2 million for a rare, 1792 penny, the first ever made by the Philadelphia mint, and a ground-breaking $1.7 million for a collection of Lalique crystals at auction.

 

Many of Heritage’s sales are conducted online, even though it has offices throughout the world. In fact, nearly half of the money it earns are from internet purchases. Just consider that Heritage Auctions gets three times as many unique visitors to its site than Christie’s does, and nearly thirteen times as many unique visitors as Sotheby’s site receives. The number of visitors to Heritage Auctions online is 725,000 per month.

 

What sets Heritage Auctions apart from other big auction companies is the fact that it was established on American soil and has never moved its headquarters overseas. It is, in this way, the largest all-American auction house in history.

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jimjum12

jimjum12

Posted
Posted
I have a feeling, if a major auction house down the line decides to denote a pedigree designation on a large collection with a high price tag that contains a large bronze presence, it's possible that this definition will change again.

 

Heritage has already sold 800 Don/Maggie Thompson bronze age books. There are thousands of bronze age pedigree books from other pedigrees as well. No one is disputing the value of those books. It's just to get a pedigree designation, you need an anchor in pre-collector era books. I think that's perfectly reasonable. There have to be hundreds of high grade collections from the 1970s and thousands from the 1980s. There's nothing wrong with those books (I collect the hell out of the 1980s) it's just a different thing than someone having a high grade collection from 1964.

 

 

Heritage, IMO, isn't a major auction house.

 

I'm talking about one of the pretentious large NYC or London auction houses denoting a "pedigree" as part of the sale. One of those places that won't even return a phone call about items that'll sell for less than many thousands of dollars. If one of those places starts labeling pedigrees, places like CGC will follow suit (though likely with record-keeping requirements attached)

 

Huh? Heritage is by far the largest comic auction house and would have more power over CGC than Sothebys or Christies ever would if either decided to get back into comics. Also, as Heritage is proud to point out they're the "world's third largest auction house." So if they're not "major", then there is no major auction house that handles comics.

 

..... and none of these auction houses are going to stop what they're doing to champion someone's 30 long box collection of 80's and 90's high grade books. There are shop owners and ex shop owners out there who still have unsold inventory of most of that material who would gladly sell you your own instant "pedigree" of that stuff..... not that it isn't well done and infinitely enjoyable material..... it's just that there is NOTHING noteworthy about high grade collections from that time frame. A pedigree is reserved for something unusually exceptional and the age of the books is important only as a line in the sand at which point the books just become far too common to consider.... and this won't change no matter how much older they become. That being said...there is still huge demand and appreciation for the better material from that time span. I would personally be VERY impressed by a complete collection of late 70's to early 90's Mint Independent/Alternative Publisher books.... but even something like that would be a tough sell as a pedigree.... although I, myself, would certainly consider it noteworthy. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

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rob_react

rob_react

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Posted
I definitely consider Heritage to be a major auction house.

 

I don't see how you couldn't. Go look at some numbers.

 

My bank account tells me they're major as I buy in categories other than comics and they're excellent or even world class in several categories.

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jimjum12

jimjum12

Posted
Posted
Apparently I'm wrong on their size. I still don't see them like that & probably never will, but the numbers are the numbers.

 

.... they're very competitive in Antiques, Coins, and Fine Art. Probably the only reason they don't rank higher is due to their weaker(...for now) presence in Europe and to unspoken agreements and concessions with the "old money" crowd for whom Heritage was not yet an option. It would not surprise me to see them overtake some ground in the next generation. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

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LordRahl

LordRahl

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Posted
Rules can be - and have been - bent to a degree, but generally speaking, these are the marks that are usually hit to receive a pedigree designation...

 

All books bought by one owner from the newsstand, or similar source - basically, at point of release

Comprehensive coverage of titles

Contains many keys

Average grade is high

 

I am sure a lot of people have collections like that. Wouldn't the collection have to be impressive in terms of quantity, scarcity, or value as well?

 

I think 'Comprehensive coverage of titles' covers one and 'Contains many keys' covers another. 'Contains many keys' and 'Average grade is high' combined should cover the final point.

 

And very few people will have collections like that.

 

This is what happens when books like New Mutants 98 and Batman Adventures 12 are referred to as

"keys."

 

True dat.

 

There used to be 'keys'. Then we added 'minor keys' and 'semi-keys'.

 

Possibly we need to expand the terminology to include 'utterly pointless keys' and 'not really worth the paper they are printed on keys'?

 

Wait wait wait.... Are you guys really arguing that NM 98 isn't a key? Because it's too new? C'mon gents, really ? First appearance of one of Marvel's most popular characters isn't a key just because it came out 25 years ago instead of 50? That's a bit much. A key is a key because of significance, not how old it is and how available it might or might not be in high grade.

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rob_react

rob_react

Posted
Posted

 

Wait wait wait.... Are you guys really arguing that NM 98 isn't a key? Because it's too new? C'mon gents, really ? First appearance of one of Marvel's most popular characters isn't a key just because it came out 25 years ago instead of 50? That's a bit much. A key is a key because of significance, not how old it is and how available it might or might not be in high grade.

 

+50000

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seanfingh

seanfingh

Posted
Posted
Rules can be - and have been - bent to a degree, but generally speaking, these are the marks that are usually hit to receive a pedigree designation...

 

All books bought by one owner from the newsstand, or similar source - basically, at point of release

Comprehensive coverage of titles

Contains many keys

Average grade is high

 

I am sure a lot of people have collections like that. Wouldn't the collection have to be impressive in terms of quantity, scarcity, or value as well?

 

I think 'Comprehensive coverage of titles' covers one and 'Contains many keys' covers another. 'Contains many keys' and 'Average grade is high' combined should cover the final point.

 

And very few people will have collections like that.

 

This is what happens when books like New Mutants 98 and Batman Adventures 12 are referred to as

"keys."

 

True dat.

 

There used to be 'keys'. Then we added 'minor keys' and 'semi-keys'.

 

Possibly we need to expand the terminology to include 'utterly pointless keys' and 'not really worth the paper they are printed on keys'?

 

Wait wait wait.... Are you guys really arguing that NM 98 isn't a key? Because it's too new? C'mon gents, really ? First appearance of one of Marvel's most popular characters isn't a key just because it came out 25 years ago instead of 50? That's a bit much. A key is a key because of significance, not how old it is and how available it might or might not be in high grade.

 

Yes. I have owned 10 or 12 copies of NM 98. By the Transitive Law of Fingh Multiple Comic Ownership, NM98 is never and will never be a key. Other comics subject to this law include OMAC 1, Spider-Woman 1, Star Wars 68, NM 87 and ASM 300.

 

Please adjust your personal key scales accordingly.

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Robot Man

Robot Man

Posted
Posted
Rules can be - and have been - bent to a degree, but generally speaking, these are the marks that are usually hit to receive a pedigree designation...

 

All books bought by one owner from the newsstand, or similar source - basically, at point of release

Comprehensive coverage of titles

Contains many keys

Average grade is high

 

I am sure a lot of people have collections like that. Wouldn't the collection have to be impressive in terms of quantity, scarcity, or value as well?

 

I think there is a date attached to that as well. LIke, you couldn't have a pedigree collection of 80's and 90's books.

 

I would have to agree with CGC's defination of a pedigree. I would also have to think it would go back far enough to be before comics were wildly collected and people would hord large quantities of books.

 

Anybody who has been doing this a while has stumbled into large sometimes very large collections of old comics. Most don't meet the requirements set by CGC that really make them "special". I have a few decent size original collections that I have found over the years. But these are mostly only special to me.

 

Here is a very large original owner collection that spans the 40's-70's that turned up on the west coast as year or so ago. They wwere all bougt by one person but not all real high grade or concecutive issues of a title just a huge group of very cool books. Only special to me and a few others that got them. They are know as the "Paul" books because the original owner wrote his name on most of them. I don't consider it a "pedigree" just a great stash of books. Here's a couple cool ones.

 

combatman44paul_zps965ab5d9.jpg

 

comthrilling44paul_zps04093d27.jpg

 

 

 

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youmechooz

youmechooz

Posted
Posted
Hey there,

I still don't have a good grasp of what "pedigree" constitutes in comics aside from the fact that there is usually someone's name attached to the collection. Can anyone link me to an explainer?

Thanks.

If you go by ebay, it just means any original owner collection of comics. Grades dont matter and neither does date of publication. Also, you have to request a certificate of authenticity. Otherwise, how would you know it was from a made up pedigree.

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01TheDude

01TheDude

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Posted

is it just me or did the importance of time/age of books suddenly freeze right around 1980?

 

Back in the mid 1970s when I first started collecting books, No one I knew collected the golden age stuff simply because it was too expensive or impossible to find. Those books were only 30-40 years old at the time.

 

Heck-- to us-- something from just 10 years before was an antique (marvel silver age)-- and still hard to find and expensive (compared to most bronze). Granted we were kids at the time and some of these books were older than us.

 

Fast forward to 40 years later -- now these books are just as old as the Golden age books when we were kids. And the bronze stuff is at least 35 years old. Is it really all about the number of people hoarding the books and taking good care of them from the bronze age forward? When do these books get their due? Will it take another 30 years?

 

At some point, the age of these collections simply has to be considered important. The become more and more scarce everyday. I can see the pedigree designation expanding sometime in the future-- it simply will have to at some point.

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Robot Man

Robot Man

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Posted

There also has to be a large group of people that recognize the "pedigree" Many such as the GA "Cape Cod", "Cookville", "Eldon" and a few others are not recognized by CGC but are actively sought out by collectors who often pay strong prices for them.

 

The words "original owner" collection are often thrown out quite a bit. I guess it makes people think they are fresh to the market and have not been in collector's hands and "messed with". A certificate of authenticity is only as good as the person who issued it. Anybody can make one. It does not make it a pedigree.

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