Auction near Detroit, many GA comics

[VintageComics]

Aren't there enough reputable venues in which to bid, without having to resort to a source with a questionable past?

 

I'll stay with The Bay and My Comic Shop auctions, thx. :wink:

 

Yeah because nobody shills on Ebay!!

There are probably shill bidders in every venue—even CLink, Jon! It's so difficult to prove and so rarely prosecuted that people do it with impunity. It's the reason I no longer go all-in on anything. Shill bidding loses it's effectiveness when legitimate bidders keep their bids sensible. In the case of eBay, a lot of people do it just to get around eBay's somewhat exorbitant reserve fees; I blame eBay's fee structure as much as I blame the sellers (who are nevertheless still felons).

 

I'm not sure we're technically talking about felonies here ... but I assume that many of the books that are quickly relisted are the result of failed shilling. That is, the owner (or one of his cronies) shilled too high and accidentally won the book. (Or shilled in a way to create a de facto hidden reserve price.)

 

CLink says they are on the lookout for such things, but I'm afraid it's fairly easy to evade their checks and difficult for them to distinguish the failed shills (or hidden reserves) from the quick flips.

You might not be sure, but I am. Shill bidding is a felony in most jurisdictions. Shill bidding in an online auction is considered wire fraud under federal law. Some people have gone to prison for shill bidding in eBay auctions.

 

Do you have a link to a news story?

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=98735

There are many other news stories about the same case.

 

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

 

It appears as if prosecutions are rare. With respect to eBay, if I'm reading the article correctly, this prosecution may have been the first. Despite what must be many thousands of sellers who have engaged in shilling over the years.

One reason shill bidding is so infrequently prosecuted is that many victims don't realize that it's a felony. That's why it's important to get the word out. If you suspect anyone of shill bidding on an item you purchased online, you can file a complaint here:

http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

I'm convinced that shill bidding happens on various venues (including eBay), but I'm not so sure it's the venue itself but rather 2nd accounts.

 

I tend to lean towards it being shill bidding when I see items fetch strong prices right out of the gate because whenever I see a reputable seller sell the same book it seems to take it's time getting there, usually not till the final day of auction.

[Bookery]

Beat shill bidders at their own game by simply bidding the most you are willing to pay. If it goes over that it wasn't ment to be and move on to the next one. Let them get stuck with it and the fees that are incurred. The funny thing about auctions are that people still think they are going to get it for nothing. (Not saying that you can't get a deal from time to time) but for the most part "winning" an auction means you are the chump who paid the most. I have never really liked auctions and realize that in most cases, it is the seller that wins most of the time...

 

I miss the old days where books had a price. If it was too high you negotiated, if too low you scored.

 

Even though I bid on auctions now and then myself, I do feel this is pretty much true. It always seemed funny to me at something like a big art auction you see a huge price paid for something and the audience breaks out in applause, with everyone congratulating the winner. "Congratulations! You just paid more than everyone else on the planet thought it was worth!"

 

Another problem for me as a dealer is that, with comics anyway, you often have the GPA factor. Now I love GPA as a reference tool. But for anyone looking to re-sell, it sometimes proves a problem as well. In general, I'm going to lose most auctions I bid on, because I have to have room for mark-up, unlike someone buying for their personal collection. Makes sense. But that rare time I feel I get a bargain... say a $1000 book for $800 (sometimes something slips through the cracks, or it's a holiday, or weather has wiped out electricity in half the country... whatever). So I get my book, mark it up to $1000, and my customers whip out their phones and look up GPA and announce "I can't possibly pay more than the last GPA price... which is only $800." Aaaargh!

 

 

 

 

[Robot Man]

I know most of you bid in the big auctions. It is probably the best way to get the "good" books. Trouble is, when you figure in paying top dollar, buyer's premium, taxes, shipping ect. there is no bargain for the most part. I'd have to want a book REAL BAD to do this. I've bought a few books in HA and other auctions like these and all I can think about when I look at it is how much I overpaid for it. I pretty much don't look at them anymore just so I'm not tempted. I've got a decent collection that I'm real happy with so that helps. It's WAY more fun to get a deal on a book and that takes a little more work and patience which most collectors don't have.

[MrBedrock]

Aren't there enough reputable venues in which to bid, without having to resort to a source with a questionable past?

 

I'll stay with The Bay and My Comic Shop auctions, thx. :wink:

 

Yeah because nobody shills on Ebay!!

There are probably shill bidders in every venue—even CLink, Jon! It's so difficult to prove and so rarely prosecuted that people do it with impunity. It's the reason I no longer go all-in on anything. Shill bidding loses it's effectiveness when legitimate bidders keep their bids sensible. In the case of eBay, a lot of people do it just to get around eBay's somewhat exorbitant reserve fees; I blame eBay's fee structure as much as I blame the sellers (who are nevertheless still felons).

 

I'm not sure we're technically talking about felonies here ... but I assume that many of the books that are quickly relisted are the result of failed shilling. That is, the owner (or one of his cronies) shilled too high and accidentally won the book. (Or shilled in a way to create a de facto hidden reserve price.)

 

CLink says they are on the lookout for such things, but I'm afraid it's fairly easy to evade their checks and difficult for them to distinguish the failed shills (or hidden reserves) from the quick flips.

You might not be sure, but I am. Shill bidding is a felony in most jurisdictions. Shill bidding in an online auction is considered wire fraud under federal law. Some people have gone to prison for shill bidding in eBay auctions.

 

Do you have a link to a news story?

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=98735

There are many other news stories about the same case.

 

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

 

It appears as if prosecutions are rare. With respect to eBay, if I'm reading the article correctly, this prosecution may have been the first. Despite what must be many thousands of sellers who have engaged in shilling over the years.

One reason shill bidding is so infrequently prosecuted is that many victims don't realize that it's a felony. That's why it's important to get the word out. If you suspect anyone of shill bidding on an item you purchased online, you can file a complaint here:

http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

I'm convinced that shill bidding happens on various venues (including eBay), but I'm not so sure it's the venue itself but rather 2nd accounts.

 

I tend to lean towards it being shill bidding when I see items fetch strong prices right out of the gate because whenever I see a reputable seller sell the same book it seems to take it's time getting there, usually not till the final day of auction.

This post, while effective, had too damn many quotes.

 

[Sqeggs]

Aren't there enough reputable venues in which to bid, without having to resort to a source with a questionable past?

 

I'll stay with The Bay and My Comic Shop auctions, thx. :wink:

 

Yeah because nobody shills on Ebay!!

There are probably shill bidders in every venue—even CLink, Jon! It's so difficult to prove and so rarely prosecuted that people do it with impunity. It's the reason I no longer go all-in on anything. Shill bidding loses it's effectiveness when legitimate bidders keep their bids sensible. In the case of eBay, a lot of people do it just to get around eBay's somewhat exorbitant reserve fees; I blame eBay's fee structure as much as I blame the sellers (who are nevertheless still felons).

 

I'm not sure we're technically talking about felonies here ... but I assume that many of the books that are quickly relisted are the result of failed shilling. That is, the owner (or one of his cronies) shilled too high and accidentally won the book. (Or shilled in a way to create a de facto hidden reserve price.)

 

CLink says they are on the lookout for such things, but I'm afraid it's fairly easy to evade their checks and difficult for them to distinguish the failed shills (or hidden reserves) from the quick flips.

You might not be sure, but I am. Shill bidding is a felony in most jurisdictions. Shill bidding in an online auction is considered wire fraud under federal law. Some people have gone to prison for shill bidding in eBay auctions.

 

Do you have a link to a news story?

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=98735

There are many other news stories about the same case.

 

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

 

It appears as if prosecutions are rare. With respect to eBay, if I'm reading the article correctly, this prosecution may have been the first. Despite what must be many thousands of sellers who have engaged in shilling over the years.

One reason shill bidding is so infrequently prosecuted is that many victims don't realize that it's a felony. That's why it's important to get the word out. If you suspect anyone of shill bidding on an item you purchased online, you can file a complaint here:

http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

I'm convinced that shill bidding happens on various venues (including eBay), but I'm not so sure it's the venue itself but rather 2nd accounts.

 

I tend to lean towards it being shill bidding when I see items fetch strong prices right out of the gate because whenever I see a reputable seller sell the same book it seems to take it's time getting there, usually not till the final day of auction.

This post, while effective, had too damn many quotes.

 

One too few, actually.

[Sqeggs]

Beat shill bidders at their own game by simply bidding the most you are willing to pay. If it goes over that it wasn't ment to be and move on to the next one. Let them get stuck with it and the fees that are incurred. The funny thing about auctions are that people still think they are going to get it for nothing. (Not saying that you can't get a deal from time to time) but for the most part "winning" an auction means you are the chump who paid the most. I have never really liked auctions and realize that in most cases, it is the seller that wins most of the time...

 

I miss the old days where books had a price. If it was too high you negotiated, if too low you scored.

 

Even though I bid on auctions now and then myself, I do feel this is pretty much true. It always seemed funny to me at something like a big art auction you see a huge price paid for something and the audience breaks out in applause, with everyone congratulating the winner. "Congratulations! You just paid more than everyone else on the planet thought it was worth!"

 

Another problem for me as a dealer is that, with comics anyway, you often have the GPA factor. Now I love GPA as a reference tool. But for anyone looking to re-sell, it sometimes proves a problem as well. In general, I'm going to lose most auctions I bid on, because I have to have room for mark-up, unlike someone buying for their personal collection. Makes sense. But that rare time I feel I get a bargain... say a $1000 book for $800 (sometimes something slips through the cracks, or it's a holiday, or weather has wiped out electricity in half the country... whatever). So I get my book, mark it up to $1000, and my customers whip out their phones and look up GPA and announce "I can't possibly pay more than the last GPA price... which is only $800." Aaaargh!

 

 

It never bothers me to pay more than last GPA for a book that I want if that price strikes me as having been below FMV.

 

OTOH, there is a dealer who shall remain nameless who will win books in HA Sunday night auctions and post them to his site the next morning at a substantial markup, presumably well before he will have the books in hand. That seems to me to be pushing it a bit.

[Robot Man]

Me, I don't care about GPA. I don't buy or sell slabs very much. I'm just a bottom feeder and actually like to open my books up. When I sell at a show and someone tells me the price is too high, I usually agree with them. I say that other than a few people on this planet, it is worthless. Just try and take that piece to 7-11 and see if they will give you a carton of milk for it. So that being said, it's worth this much to me to keep it. If you don't want it at that price just walk away. I do get some looks sometimes...

[Diamonddave]

Beat shill bidders at their own game by simply bidding the most you are willing to pay. If it goes over that it wasn't ment to be and move on to the next one. Let them get stuck with it and the fees that are incurred. The funny thing about auctions are that people still think they are going to get it for nothing. (Not saying that you can't get a deal from time to time) but for the most part "winning" an auction means you are the chump who paid the most. I have never really liked auctions and realize that in most cases, it is the seller that wins most of the time...

 

I miss the old days where books had a price. If it was too high you negotiated, if too low you scored.

 

Even though I bid on auctions now and then myself, I do feel this is pretty much true. It always seemed funny to me at something like a big art auction you see a huge price paid for something and the audience breaks out in applause, with everyone congratulating the winner. "Congratulations! You just paid more than everyone else on the planet thought it was worth!"

GPA can be very misleading depending on the book and when the last sale was recorded. I would/will use it as a guideline, but not a definite authority on the price to pay or the price to ask. If your example of the last sale being $800 was recorded 14 months ago, I would say $1000 isn't far off FMV, depending on the book of course. And GPA is so easily manipulated it would behoove a buyer to get multiple examples of a price paid to have a well rounded idea of what FMV is before making an offer.

 

Another problem for me as a dealer is that, with comics anyway, you often have the GPA factor. Now I love GPA as a reference tool. But for anyone looking to re-sell, it sometimes proves a problem as well. In general, I'm going to lose most auctions I bid on, because I have to have room for mark-up, unlike someone buying for their personal collection. Makes sense. But that rare time I feel I get a bargain... say a $1000 book for $800 (sometimes something slips through the cracks, or it's a holiday, or weather has wiped out electricity in half the country... whatever). So I get my book, mark it up to $1000, and my customers whip out their phones and look up GPA and announce "I can't possibly pay more than the last GPA price... which is only $800." Aaaargh!

 

 

 

[fifties]

I know most of you bid in the big auctions. It is probably the best way to get the "good" books. Trouble is, when you figure in paying top dollar, buyer's premium, taxes, shipping ect. there is no bargain for the most part. I'd have to want a book REAL BAD to do this. I've bought a few books in HA and other auctions like these and all I can think about when I look at it is how much I overpaid for it. I pretty much don't look at them anymore just so I'm not tempted. I've got a decent collection that I'm real happy with so that helps. It's WAY more fun to get a deal on a book and that takes a little more work and patience which most collectors don't have.

When you're a bottom feeder like I am, HA is a rather expensive luxury, what with the ridiculous 19% "buyers premium", and overpriced shipping charge. I've bought once or twice from them, and re-sold for a bit more, but with them, it's just not worth it for me.

 

I always consider the shipping cost, regardless of sales venue, to be equivalent to the cost of transportation to a dealer's store or con, and never add either it or the occasional sales tax charge onto the cost of my books. I have noticed that "sales tax" never seemed to be charged when I bought in person at a con, but is prevalent just with certain dealers and auction houses.

 

Me, I don't care about GPA. I don't buy or sell slabs very much. I'm just a bottom feeder and actually like to open my books up.

I hear ya. :wink:

[Bookery]

I have noticed that "sales tax" never seemed to be charged when I bought in person at a con, but is prevalent just with certain dealers and auction houses.

 

This is a big gripe with me. As a store-owner I am at a serious disadvantage. I just lost a $10k sale because the would-be buyer wanted me to not charge him sales tax. Well, unless he provides a retail certificate, I have no choice. If I absorb and pay the tax myself, in this case it brought the items down below what I paid. Yet the buyer can just purchase them off the internet out of state, or go to a convention, and obtain them tax free (illegal of course, but done every day just the same). It's made me reconsider whether it's really worth my time to carry expensive in-house items, unless it's rare enough that it simply can't be obtained elsewhere.

 

[Robot Man]

I know most of you bid in the big auctions. It is probably the best way to get the "good" books. Trouble is, when you figure in paying top dollar, buyer's premium, taxes, shipping ect. there is no bargain for the most part. I'd have to want a book REAL BAD to do this. I've bought a few books in HA and other auctions like these and all I can think about when I look at it is how much I overpaid for it. I pretty much don't look at them anymore just so I'm not tempted. I've got a decent collection that I'm real happy with so that helps. It's WAY more fun to get a deal on a book and that takes a little more work and patience which most collectors don't have.

When you're a bottom feeder like I am, HA is a rather expensive luxury, what with the ridiculous 19% "buyers premium", and overpriced shipping charge. I've bought once or twice from them, and re-sold for a bit more, but with them, it's just not worth it for me.

 

I always consider the shipping cost, regardless of sales venue, to be equivalent to the cost of transportation to a dealer's store or con, and never add either it or the occasional sales tax charge onto the cost of my books. I have noticed that "sales tax" never seemed to be charged when I bought in person at a con, but is prevalent just with certain dealers and auction houses.

 

Me, I don't care about GPA. I don't buy or sell slabs very much. I'm just a bottom feeder and actually like to open my books up.

I hear ya. :wink:

 

Here here brother life is just fine down in the weeds. Looks like we both have done OK trolling the bottom!

[Tri-Color Brian]

I have noticed that "sales tax" never seemed to be charged when I bought in person at a con, but is prevalent just with certain dealers and auction houses.

 

This is a big gripe with me. As a store-owner I am at a serious disadvantage. I just lost a $10k sale because the would-be buyer wanted me to not charge him sales tax. Well, unless he provides a retail certificate, I have no choice. If I absorb and pay the tax myself, in this case it brought the items down below what I paid. Yet the buyer can just purchase them off the internet out of state, or go to a convention, and obtain them tax free (illegal of course, but done every day just the same). It's made me reconsider whether it's really worth my time to carry expensive in-house items, unless it's rare enough that it simply can't be obtained elsewhere.

 

So, you are saying that you only had a 10% markup on the books from what you paid? How do you stay in business that way?

[tabcom]

Meanwhile, back to the topic . . .

 

Looks like a fun time to me.

 

If anyone does attend, please try to take pictures to post. If you see a GAger 75+ in the crowd bidding,take a picture of him too. I'd like to see if it is Herr Kesselring.

 

[G.A.tor]

I have noticed that "sales tax" never seemed to be charged when I bought in person at a con, but is prevalent just with certain dealers and auction houses.

 

This is a big gripe with me. As a store-owner I am at a serious disadvantage. I just lost a $10k sale because the would-be buyer wanted me to not charge him sales tax. Well, unless he provides a retail certificate, I have no choice. If I absorb and pay the tax myself, in this case it brought the items down below what I paid. Yet the buyer can just purchase them off the internet out of state, or go to a convention, and obtain them tax free (illegal of course, but done every day just the same). It's made me reconsider whether it's really worth my time to carry expensive in-house items, unless it's rare enough that it simply can't be obtained elsewhere.

 

So, you are saying that you only had a 10% markup on the books from what you paid? How do you stay in business that way?

 

that's my general markup on bigger GA items....

[Bookery]

I have noticed that "sales tax" never seemed to be charged when I bought in person at a con, but is prevalent just with certain dealers and auction houses.

 

This is a big gripe with me. As a store-owner I am at a serious disadvantage. I just lost a $10k sale because the would-be buyer wanted me to not charge him sales tax. Well, unless he provides a retail certificate, I have no choice. If I absorb and pay the tax myself, in this case it brought the items down below what I paid. Yet the buyer can just purchase them off the internet out of state, or go to a convention, and obtain them tax free (illegal of course, but done every day just the same). It's made me reconsider whether it's really worth my time to carry expensive in-house items, unless it's rare enough that it simply can't be obtained elsewhere.

 

So, you are saying that you only had a 10% markup on the books from what you paid? How do you stay in business that way?

 

It was an impulse buy on an Amazing Fantasy #15. There just isn't going to be a way of getting these at any great discount. As it turns out... just after my last posting... the book has sold (to an out-of-state buyer who doesn't have to pay my state's sales tax... technically he'll owe HIS state the tax, but no one ever pays this). I wasn't worried about this specific book never selling... but the point is customers in my own state are at a big disadvantage, and thus my store's at a big disadvantage, against eBay and conventions because of the taxation issue. I could have had an easy in-person sale rather than the expense and hassle of shipping. And there are lots of expensive books that aren't such easy sells as an AF15 (most G.A. by comparison) that the tax difference can make ALL the difference on whether a book can be sold at a profit or not.

 

[Robot Man]

My beef with Heritage is that won't accept my CA resale number and charge tax anyway. That with the high buyer's premiums just turn me off. Not to mention they can apparently shill their own auctions in TX. Besides, sitting in a dark room on my computer alone is kind of a hollow victory.

[Tri-Color Brian]

Thanks for the clarifications Bookery and G.A.tor.

[jimjum12]

I have noticed that "sales tax" never seemed to be charged when I bought in person at a con, but is prevalent just with certain dealers and auction houses.

 

This is a big gripe with me. As a store-owner I am at a serious disadvantage. I just lost a $10k sale because the would-be buyer wanted me to not charge him sales tax. Well, unless he provides a retail certificate, I have no choice. If I absorb and pay the tax myself, in this case it brought the items down below what I paid. Yet the buyer can just purchase them off the internet out of state, or go to a convention, and obtain them tax free (illegal of course, but done every day just the same). It's made me reconsider whether it's really worth my time to carry expensive in-house items, unless it's rare enough that it simply can't be obtained elsewhere.

 

So, you are saying that you only had a 10% markup on the books from what you paid? How do you stay in business that way?

 

that's my general markup on bigger GA items....

 

...you're a smart man.....if you can roll those items over every couple of months, not even the stock market can keep up. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[Bookery]

My beef with Heritage is that won't accept my CA resale number and charge tax anyway. That with the high buyer's premiums just turn me off. Not to mention they can apparently shill their own auctions in TX. Besides, sitting in a dark room on my computer alone is kind of a hollow victory.

 

That seems odd... but I assume it's because they have operations in both TX and CA, so it's still considered an in-state sale, even if the auction is in Texas?

 

I hate to see ANYONE have to pay more in taxation... but if they don't figure out a way for internet sales to be taxed comporably to in-store sales, there aren't going to be any stores (small businesses anyway) left. The alternative is to get rid of all sales taxes in favor of something else, but that's probably not likely either (though there are states that don't have a sales tax... Oregon is one if I recall).

 

Anyway... apologies for the rather useless rant... it's not likely that things will change.

 

 

[G.A.tor]

My beef with Heritage is that won't accept my CA resale number and charge tax anyway. That with the high buyer's premiums just turn me off. Not to mention they can apparently shill their own auctions in TX. Besides, sitting in a dark room on my computer alone is kind of a hollow victory.

this seems like an easy remedy to fix with a phone call