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Batgirl cover cancelled

Started by MatterEaterLad,

436 posts in this topic

Davenport

Davenport

Posted
Posted
How is it censorship when the artist reevaluates his work and says, "That is not how I wanted my work to be interpreted. I see what some people mean and do not want my work to even suggest I am behind that. I don't want my own work published."

 

He pulled his own cover.

 

There are many times when we create something that then appears differently from what we intended and wish we could take it back. He did.

 

There are many times when we say something that is misinterpreted and wish we could take it back.

 

In the artist's case. He took it back.

I'm with you that it's commerce, not censorship. The artist chose to continue earning a living over withstanding controversy. He chose correctly imho, for now. Hopefully at some future point he'll be secure enough, branded enough and successful enough to choose however he wishes.

 

I also think creators for the Big Two have to realize DC and Marvel are Media. That they are OLD Media, not new or alternative media. Both are openly courting accolades from NPR, The View, Vox, Hollywood and any other lockstep community they can find. They want those dollars. As well as all the dependable comic book fans. DC and Marvel want it all.

 

Creators who work for DC or Marvel in today's environment just have to understand they won't be singing to the choir any longer. Both have an eye toward an expanded and vast new digital audience. Any whine from social media is a fresh chance at Old Media accolades, when they steer into the skid and alter course. Cheers and back-slaps to follow.

 

 

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maloney414

maloney414

Posted
Posted
....and, really folks, what IS with all this rape/sexuality stuff...?

 

I red Killing Joke when I was 18, and several times since then, and never once...ever....did it even enter my mind that the Joker had raped Babs.

 

Not even once.

 

Now...by the power of suggestion, I DO see how someone who might be inclined to think that might see it in that page...but that really begs the question of "why are you inclined to see that in the first place?"

hm

 

Never has it entered my mind...and I'm not that stupid...that the Joker was pulling sexual offender tactics on the DCU.

 

Ever.

 

 

Yes. The 1st time I read the story, I thought she was raped.

 

I was young, and new to comics, so I hadn't read a ton of Joker stories to make me think it was out of character for him to go that far.

 

I just thought he was a really evil scary character that had no limits. A true adversary to Bats.

 

I've seen a bunch of posts questioning the people who thought she was raped. Saying they read the story a ton of times and the thought NEVER crossed their mind. Therefore, the people who did read it must be twisted in some way.

 

Let me put it another way with an analogy.

 

If someone kidnapped YOUR daughter in real life. Stripped off her clothes, took pictures of her naked body, and sent the pictures to you, you wouldn't think she could have been raped? The thought would NEVER cross your mind?!? Really? If my daughter had the same expressions and poses as the ones in the comic I'd be haunted and out of my F'N mind.

 

Furthermore, the police officer assigned to help you get her back responds, "I've seen tons of cases with girls being stripped of their clothes and I've NEVER even had a thought they could have been raped, is something wrong with you?? And it's not that he's trying to calm you down, he really didn't think of it. My opinion of his abilities would be :censored:

 

 

 

 

 

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DavidTheDavid

DavidTheDavid

Posted
Posted
....and, really folks, what IS with all this rape/sexuality stuff...?

 

I red Killing Joke when I was 18, and several times since then, and never once...ever....did it even enter my mind that the Joker had raped Babs.

 

Not even once.

 

Now...by the power of suggestion, I DO see how someone who might be inclined to think that might see it in that page...but that really begs the question of "why are you inclined to see that in the first place?"

hm

 

Never has it entered my mind...and I'm not that stupid...that the Joker was pulling sexual offender tactics on the DCU.

 

Ever.

 

 

Yes. The 1st time I read the story, I thought she was raped.

 

I was young, and new to comics, so I hadn't read a ton of Joker stories to make me think it was out of character for him to go that far.

 

I just thought he was a really evil scary character that had no limits. A true adversary to Bats.

 

I've seen a bunch of posts questioning the people who thought she was raped. Saying they read the story a ton of times and the thought NEVER crossed their mind. Therefore, the people who did read it must be twisted in some way.

 

Let me put it another way with an analogy.

 

If someone kidnapped YOUR daughter in real life. Stripped off her clothes, took pictures of her naked body, and sent the pictures to you, you wouldn't think she could have been raped? The thought would NEVER cross your mind?!? Really? If my daughter had the same expressions and poses as the ones in the comic I'd be haunted and out of my F'N mind.

 

Furthermore, the police officer assigned to help you get her back responds, "I've seen tons of cases with girls being stripped of their clothes and I've NEVER even had a thought they could have been raped, is something wrong with you?? And it's not that he's trying to calm you down, he really didn't think of it. My opinion of his abilities would be :censored:

 

Well said, sir. Well said.

 

I thought the same as you when I was young and first reading the comic: she was raped, and it was traumatic for me as a reader. Rape to me is as abominable a crime against a fellow human as one can commit, next to murder. I don't like seeing rape scenes, not in literature, not on screen, not in radio. I've never been sexually assaulted but it repulses me nonetheless.

 

But I think it's a lot of overreaction to a well-done cover and an unfortunate knee-jerk reaction.

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted
....and, really folks, what IS with all this rape/sexuality stuff...?

 

I red Killing Joke when I was 18, and several times since then, and never once...ever....did it even enter my mind that the Joker had raped Babs.

 

Not even once.

 

Now...by the power of suggestion, I DO see how someone who might be inclined to think that might see it in that page...but that really begs the question of "why are you inclined to see that in the first place?"

hm

 

Never has it entered my mind...and I'm not that stupid...that the Joker was pulling sexual offender tactics on the DCU.

 

Ever.

 

 

Yes. The 1st time I read the story, I thought she was raped.

 

I was young, and new to comics, so I hadn't read a ton of Joker stories to make me think it was out of character for him to go that far.

 

I just thought he was a really evil scary character that had no limits. A true adversary to Bats.

 

I've seen a bunch of posts questioning the people who thought she was raped. Saying they read the story a ton of times and the thought NEVER crossed their mind. Therefore, the people who did read it must be twisted in some way.

 

Let me put it another way with an analogy.

 

If someone kidnapped YOUR daughter in real life. Stripped off her clothes, took pictures of her naked body, and sent the pictures to you, you wouldn't think she could have been raped? The thought would NEVER cross your mind?!? Really? If my daughter had the same expressions and poses as the ones in the comic I'd be haunted and out of my F'N mind.

 

Furthermore, the police officer assigned to help you get her back responds, "I've seen tons of cases with girls being stripped of their clothes and I've NEVER even had a thought they could have been raped, is something wrong with you?? And it's not that he's trying to calm you down, he really didn't think of it. My opinion of his abilities would be :censored:

 

 

 

 

 

You know I love you lots, D, but the Joker is a fictional character. He doesn't exist. He's not real.

 

Not only is he not real, but he's portrayed as...pardon the pun...not_in_tune_with_social_norms crazy (yeah, I know, the board filter takes over...at least you can see the pun if you quote.)

 

Therefore, what he does doesn't really have much bearing on the real world. The thought of the Joker being sexual...in any way....is a completely foreign one to me, because, for 75 years, the character has never, ever been portrayed in such a light...except possibly with his pregnant wife, pre-accident.

 

The Joker is about as asexual a character...boners aside...as it gets.

 

So, no, I don't think of the Joker in the way I would think of a real human being at all.

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Icculus308win

Icculus308win

Posted
Posted
I like the cover. Joker is supposed to be creepy.

 

Game, Set, Match.

 

Every year, we have to worry and cater more and more to "feelings," and have more "PC" words invented or used in lieu of their just fine predecessors, so we can keep enabling to walk on egg shells so not to offend anyone who walks the earth.

 

(Let's keep giving those spiffy trophies to kids for coming in last place too. Because heaven forbid, someone says they lost and came in last place - keep practicing and work harder, is just too mean. Where's George Carlin when you need him? He would tell Timmy's mom that maybe if he could see his feet or not chased butterflies while in the race he might have not been in last place)

Ok I'm done. Happy early Friday.

 

Point. Missed.

 

The majority of people who are complaining about this cover are the actual fans of this comic. Batgirl has been reinvented as a positive, empowered role model for girls and young women. The new creative team have done an excellent job of making a fun book with a fun character. To have this Batgirl once again become the helpless victim of the rapey, sadistic Killing Joke Joker is so tonally wide of the mark of where this character is now. The editorial staff have let down the creative team and this comics fans. Simple.

 

Of course when this becomes news, suddenly swathes of angry male comic book fans feel they are the victims of some PC agenda, now that the comic book they never read in the first place has a variant cover that wont get published. The image is still there on the internet, so all the fans of this cover can still view it to their hearts content. Yet the actual audience for this comic have been let down by the fact that there was a decision made by DC that this cover might have been a good choice for the new Batgirl comic.

 

And lastly there was the violent and sexual threats aimed at the people who were complaining about the cover by some outraged 'fans' of this cover, which maybe shows how some on the other side in this debate might actually be the 'over sensitive ' ones.

 

Sigh...you can hide in the sun until you see the light.

 

 

Some light can never be seen?

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

I got your back - just like a turtle shell (thumbs u

 

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

Posted
Posted
Chuck nailed it. Those were the points that I was struggling to make in the modern section before RMA and I's posts went poof.

 

I think Chuck's the bee's knees, but I don't agree with him on this issue.

 

 

And you as well!...but which part don't you agree with?

 

The only point I really see in all of this is that the artist had a choice. He wasn't forced to make that decision.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and the internet certainly excellerates that, but I still don't see that he was forced.

 

Plenty of creators and artists have been absolutely hounded throughout their careers - Robert Crumb created some of the most sexist, violent, misunderstood, some would say racist images ever for comic books and took criticism, threats, less opportunities to publish.... didn't matter.

 

No one could force him to change.

 

The comic industry wasn't forced to change by creating the Comics Code, they CHOOSE to make that decision, using it as an opportunity to destroy their greatest competitor and one of the few publishers that was actually creating art at the time. A vocal minority frightened them and they caved in.

 

No one forced them, they made the decision.

 

Howard Stern was protested, hounded, complained about, fined by the FCC... he never gave in. Now THERE is a situation where someone was ALMOST forced to change. He had to slightly alter - because his format was on someone else's platform, but eventually he was able to switch to a platform (satellite Radio) where he could create exactly as he choose to.

 

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Dano

Dano

Posted
Posted
And where's the outrage over the people making ACTUAL death threats at the people protesting the cover? Nada. Zilch. Sheesh.

 

Dan

 

Wouldn't this post of yours qualify...?

 

hm

 

A voice in the Wilderness.

 

Dan

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Dano

Dano

Posted
Posted
Frankly, I'm tired of people coddling misogynists. Talk about being PC.

 

Dan

 

You tell 'em, Dan.

 

That damn Joker, always being coddled.

 

:mad:

 

"Awwww, he didn't mean it! He's asexual. He's just a funny guy in a suit. So misunderstood, give him a juice box and stop picking on him."

 

The artist pulled the cover. He realized his mistake. That settles it.

 

Dan

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

Posted
Posted

And incidentally... I'm not AGREEING with anyone's opinion on the art...

 

I do find it bizarre that it's more of a controversy than the people who threatened to rape and kill each other in the comments section of a chat board. THAT should be investigated.

 

As far as the original Killing Joke page...

 

I'm not sure I necessarily thought it was rape at the time I first saw it (the month it came out), and I could see on some level how I almost certainly thought it was, but I do remember that it made me uncomfortable,... that's ok, art does that sometimes, even intentionally - and believe me, I'm no prude... but it seemed out of place to me in a Batman story... I was a fan of Alan Moore, a huge fan of Brian Bolland, and at the time had an interest in Batman....

 

And yet, I just never was a huge fan of that book... (shrug).... everyone else loved it... it's a classic (I'll gladly concede), yet, it just wasn't for me... and I trace it back to that page I posted.

 

Now keep in mind, I was reading Cherry and Omaha and Ironwood and Young Withces(!) and god knows what else at the time, but.... for some reason it was THAT page in a mainstream comic that sort of cocked my head wrong.

 

But I certainly wouldn't protest it. Or tell someone else they couldn't see it.

 

The new picture? (shrug)

 

At this point I've seen what they've done with Harley and the Joker and even Batman in the video games and cartoons... they've turned these characters into borderline R rated material... seeing that picture had little effect on me... another goofy Joker is 'insane', really 'bad' yadda yadda yadda.... whatever.

 

Does it matter to me that people have different opinion's on it?

 

No. Why would it?

 

Why does it bother anyone else?

 

And just because more people have a voice because of the internet, doesn't mean they're right.

 

The artist and DC Comics chose the path of least resistance. I still say if you want to blame someone, blame them.

 

They changed the art. They didn't have to.

 

The voices would've went away.

 

The world would've continued on.

 

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vader2001

vader2001

Posted
Posted
Much ado about this cover and its cancellation.

 

BG-Cv41-Joker-variant-solicitation-88c4e-31e8d.0.0_zpsrx1gloxb.jpg

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Having not read anything but the original post, and knowing exactly the rehashed debate that has followed. I throw my pointless 2 cents in merely to say once more:

 

Political Correctness is the scourge of Western Society.

 

and further more, some day there will be a lot less ineffective advertising dollars available online, and I look forward to the majority of "blog" writers having to find other things to do then invent teacup tempests so like minded people can get in a big circle and all pat each other on the back...

 

No one follows Political Correctness other than those who choose to.

 

My god, people diddle themselves on cam sites all over the internet 24 hours a day and people think somehow we're repressed here in the U.S? Wake up.

 

What is it you feel you can't do to express yourself???

 

Is disagreement a form of censorship? lol

 

Sheesh.... first world crybabies... we have no idea what real censorship is here....

 

I think both of these statements are far too extreme.

 

 

+1

 

I for one liked the cover.

 

Sad the cancelled the cover, yes.

 

I liked the fact that he was paying homage to the Killing Joke.

 

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Quicksilver Signs

Quicksilver Signs

Posted
Posted
The dark spots (I am assuming blood) seem to have a high concentration around Batgirl's mid-section, and the one shot of Bolland's "uncensored" page seems to show a very dark patch covering her stomach & lower area... I can't say for sure whether I thought Joker raped her back when I read the story, but it seems kinda clearer to me now. I can certainly understand how people could think that, anyway.

 

 

 

-slym

 

Never occurred to me either she was raped. If anything, I thought Commosioner Gordon was assaulted sexually somehow, being nude.

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