Strange Tales 110....How Many WHITE PAGES exist?

[Bomber-Bob]

Who's screaming ? I produce data. It speaks for itself. And it does not support your blanket assertions. So I don't have to scream.

 

What does that then mean those who can't produce data are doing ?

 

-J.

 

Jaydog, I can't produce data that guys are attracted to hot chicks but does that mean it's not true ?

Give it up dude, White Pages rule !!!!

[Jaydogrules]

Jaydog, watch tonight's Pawn Stars where Greg Reece brings in a couple books to sell, including an Avengers 1. Paul Litch grades the books and deems the Avengers 1 a 6.5 . As a flaw he explicitly mentions the cream pages, proving poor page quality affects the grade, as well it should.

Page quality is the best indicator of preservation and it is rewarded in the marketplace..

 

I saw the episode. The whole discussion was very informal and no one ever said the price is "X" because of "Y".

 

And yes, sometimes the so called "PQ" on the label is "rewarded" as you say. And sometimes it isn't. As such, it is inconsistent and impossible to quantify, which therefore makes it essentially meaningless.

 

-J.

[Bomber-Bob]

Jaydog, watch tonight's Pawn Stars where Greg Reece brings in a couple books to sell, including an Avengers 1. Paul Litch grades the books and deems the Avengers 1 a 6.5 . As a flaw he explicitly mentions the cream pages, proving poor page quality affects the grade, as well it should.

Page quality is the best indicator of preservation and it is rewarded in the marketplace..

 

I saw the episode. The whole discussion was very informal and no one ever said the price is "X" because of "Y".

 

And yes, sometimes the so called "PQ" on the label is "rewarded" as you say. And sometimes it isn't. As such, it is inconsistent and impossible to quantify, which therefore makes it essentially meaningless.

 

-J.

 

"no one ever said the price is "X" because of "Y". " Partly because of the cream pages, the grade was deemed 6.5, The grade affects the price.

Serious question, why the crusade ? Do you own a bunch of CR/OW books ? Produce some data that shows your arguments has convinced even two Boardies that CR/OW pages are as desirable as White.

[Jaydogrules]

Jaydog, watch tonight's Pawn Stars where Greg Reece brings in a couple books to sell, including an Avengers 1. Paul Litch grades the books and deems the Avengers 1 a 6.5 . As a flaw he explicitly mentions the cream pages, proving poor page quality affects the grade, as well it should.

Page quality is the best indicator of preservation and it is rewarded in the marketplace..

 

I saw the episode. The whole discussion was very informal and no one ever said the price is "X" because of "Y".

 

And yes, sometimes the so called "PQ" on the label is "rewarded" as you say. And sometimes it isn't. As such, it is inconsistent and impossible to quantify, which therefore makes it essentially meaningless.

 

-J.

 

"no one ever said the price is "X" because of "Y". " Partly because of the cream pages, the grade was deemed 6.5, The grade affects the price.

Serious question, why the crusade ? Do you own a bunch of CR/OW books ? Produce some data that shows your arguments has convinced even two Boardies that CR/OW pages are as desirable as White.

 

As I just stated in the other thread, there are 9.8 books with "cr-ow pages" on the label.

 

And I'm not here to convince people of anything. I'm just keeping it real. I think the *majority* of collectors are just happy to own some of these books regardless. Which is why your alleged "white pages premium" doesn't hold any water.

 

Are you trying to convince boardies that their "cr/ow" books or whatever are trash ?

 

Or are you trying to convince yourself you didn't needlessly squander additional monies chasing books with labels that say "white pages" on them, even though you have no way of knowing if they actually still are unless you crack the slab ? I'm wondering....

 

-J.

[Bomber-Bob]

Jaydog, I am a White Page junkie. Yes, I have spend additional monies chasing labels with White pages. IMO, better than chasing labels with a 'tick' higher grade. Admitting your comments on the stability of a page designation may be put to question, the grade is even less stable. I would pay more and value a White page book more than a tick higher label with CR/OW pages. A 9.8 in CR/OW pages ? You can keep it in your collection, not for me.

[Jaydogrules]

Jaydog, I am a White Page junkie. Yes, I have spend additional monies chasing labels with White pages. IMO, better than chasing labels with a 'tick' higher grade. Admitting your comments on the stability of a page designation may be put to question, the grade is even less stable. I would pay more and value a White page book more than a tick higher label with CR/OW pages. A 9.8 in CR/OW pages ? You can keep it in your collection, not for me.

 

It's like I always say, to each collector his own. And I have seen your collection page and yes you do have some killer books. (thumbs u

 

-J.

[Bomber-Bob]

Jaydog, I am a White Page junkie. Yes, I have spend additional monies chasing labels with White pages. IMO, better than chasing labels with a 'tick' higher grade. Admitting your comments on the stability of a page designation may be put to question, the grade is even less stable. I would pay more and value a White page book more than a tick higher label with CR/OW pages. A 9.8 in CR/OW pages ? You can keep it in your collection, not for me.

 

It's like I always say, to each collector his own. And I have seen your collection page and yes you do have some killer books. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Thank you ! I appreciate that. At least you know I am telling the truth = I am a White Page junkie.

Serious question, which costs more, chasing the grade or the PQ ? I think chasing the grade costs more = I win !

[Jaydogrules]

Jaydog, I am a White Page junkie. Yes, I have spend additional monies chasing labels with White pages. IMO, better than chasing labels with a 'tick' higher grade. Admitting your comments on the stability of a page designation may be put to question, the grade is even less stable. I would pay more and value a White page book more than a tick higher label with CR/OW pages. A 9.8 in CR/OW pages ? You can keep it in your collection, not for me.

 

It's like I always say, to each collector his own. And I have seen your collection page and yes you do have some killer books. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Thank you ! I appreciate that. At least you know I am telling the truth = I am a White Page junkie.

Serious question, which costs more, chasing the grade or the PQ ? I think chasing the grade costs more = I win !

 

+1

 

-J.

[AlexanderM]

Jaydog, watch tonight's Pawn Stars where Greg Reece brings in a couple books to sell, including an Avengers 1. Paul Litch grades the books and deems the Avengers 1 a 6.5 . As a flaw he explicitly mentions the cream pages, proving poor page quality affects the grade, as well it should.

Page quality is the best indicator of preservation and it is rewarded in the marketplace..

 

I saw the episode. The whole discussion was very informal and no one ever said the price is "X" because of "Y".

 

And yes, sometimes the so called "PQ" on the label is "rewarded" as you say. And sometimes it isn't. As such, it is inconsistent and impossible to quantify, which therefore makes it essentially meaningless.

 

-J.

 

"no one ever said the price is "X" because of "Y". " Partly because of the cream pages, the grade was deemed 6.5, The grade affects the price.

Serious question, why the crusade ? Do you own a bunch of CR/OW books ? Produce some data that shows your arguments has convinced even two Boardies that CR/OW pages are as desirable as White.

 

As I just stated in the other thread, there are 9.8 books with "cr-ow pages" on the label.

 

And I'm not here to convince people of anything. I'm just keeping it real. I think the *majority* of collectors are just happy to own some of these books regardless. Which is why your alleged "white pages premium" doesn't hold any water.

 

Are you trying to convince boardies that their "cr/ow" books or whatever are trash ?

 

Or are you trying to convince yourself you didn't needlessly squander additional monies chasing books with labels that say "white pages" on them, even though you have no way of knowing if they actually still are unless you crack the slab ? I'm wondering....

 

-J.

 

Jay - just like others have told you there are people who care about PQ and there are people who don't. I allow for both - you seem to argue that none do?

 

Because it only takes some to value PQ for that to affect demand - supply. That is basic economics.

 

Please listen again - I am not saying all care - or that all should care. I am saying that some do, and that is why such books are able to command a premium. Sure - you and someone like you will not be the ones pushing their prices up.. but prices will often be a premium none the less - because some people do care.

 

I hope this was clearer for you.

[Sqeggs]

I don't think it is possible to determine whether or not the "PQ" on the label is the reason why a particular book sold for this or that on any given day. There are simply too many other variables, both unique to the book and in general based on whatever market conditions exist at the time, to ever know for sure. And there are a whole lot of people who take the "PQ" on the label with a grain of salt, so whatever "premium" you think you paid one day may not be duplicated should you ever decide to sell the book.

 

-J.

 

White PQ sells for a premium and LT gets hammered.

 

Perhaps anecdotally, but not with any consistency that can be observed in the open market to render it quantifiable, let alone provable. (thumbs u

 

And sure, who needs any actual data when it so easily and inconveniently disproves whatever myth someone is attempting to promulgate for whatever reason.

 

-J.

 

 

I think, quite literally, that no one but you believes that books with White pages don't receive higher prices and books with LT pages don't receive lower prices.

[Dark Knight]

I can see Jaydog's stance at PQ with regards to CGC because it is not as consistent as everyone thinks it is. I personally have subbed two books twice in which both times CGC noted a different PQ. One of them went from white pages to offwhite-white while the other went from cream-offwhite to offwhite all in a matter of months. I know that PQ does not "degrade" that quickly as it takes a long time for pages to deteriorate even under extreme conditions. PQ can also be subjective just like grading a book, but as long as the PQ is right around the area such as the ones I mentioned above and not going extreme from white to cream-offwhite or worst, then it shouldn't be too big of a deal.

 

But like most everyone has mentioned, I also think white pages command a premium in older books.

[AlexanderM]

Jaydog, watch tonight's Pawn Stars where Greg Reece brings in a couple books to sell, including an Avengers 1. Paul Litch grades the books and deems the Avengers 1 a 6.5 . As a flaw he explicitly mentions the cream pages, proving poor page quality affects the grade, as well it should.

Page quality is the best indicator of preservation and it is rewarded in the marketplace..

 

I saw the episode. The whole discussion was very informal and no one ever said the price is "X" because of "Y".

 

And yes, sometimes the so called "PQ" on the label is "rewarded" as you say. And sometimes it isn't. As such, it is inconsistent and impossible to quantify, which therefore makes it essentially meaningless.

 

-J.

 

No it doesn't. And I think you are intelligent enough to understand that. Unless you are immune to reason.

 

It does not take EVERYONE in the market to prefer Z over Y for Z to be able to sell at a premium. This is an important point. If some portion of the market prefers Z to Y, and the rest of the market doesn't care, then economics theory says that Z can sell for a premium. If, on the other hand, half the market prefers Z over Y, and the other half prefers Y over Z, then maybe they will cancel eachother out and neither will sell at a premium.

 

However, I don't think you are going to argue that the ones who do not prefer good PQ, actually prefers bad PQ?

 

No, I'm sure we agree they just don't really care (for whatever reason), and the other part cares.

 

And it does not matter whether CGC PQ assignment is perfect (or even correct) or not. As long as some people think it matters what PQ CGC assigns, and prefer better PQ assigned books - these books are able to demand a premium.

 

This (inconsistency as you call it) logically and according to all economics theory we know results in a premium to better PQ books.

[Jaydogrules]

I don't think it is possible to determine whether or not the "PQ" on the label is the reason why a particular book sold for this or that on any given day. There are simply too many other variables, both unique to the book and in general based on whatever market conditions exist at the time, to ever know for sure. And there are a whole lot of people who take the "PQ" on the label with a grain of salt, so whatever "premium" you think you paid one day may not be duplicated should you ever decide to sell the book.

 

-J.

 

White PQ sells for a premium and LT gets hammered.

 

Perhaps anecdotally, but not with any consistency that can be observed in the open market to render it quantifiable, let alone provable. (thumbs u

 

And sure, who needs any actual data when it so easily and inconveniently disproves whatever myth someone is attempting to promulgate for whatever reason.

 

-J.

 

 

I think, quite literally, that no one but you believes that books with White pages don't receive higher prices and books with LT pages don't receive lower prices.

 

I believe in data. If you have any to share, please do. And I will easily and happily offer conflicting data that will prove you wrong. (thumbs u

 

-J.

[Jaydogrules]

Jaydog, watch tonight's Pawn Stars where Greg Reece brings in a couple books to sell, including an Avengers 1. Paul Litch grades the books and deems the Avengers 1 a 6.5 . As a flaw he explicitly mentions the cream pages, proving poor page quality affects the grade, as well it should.

Page quality is the best indicator of preservation and it is rewarded in the marketplace..

 

I saw the episode. The whole discussion was very informal and no one ever said the price is "X" because of "Y".

 

And yes, sometimes the so called "PQ" on the label is "rewarded" as you say. And sometimes it isn't. As such, it is inconsistent and impossible to quantify, which therefore makes it essentially meaningless.

 

-J.

 

No it doesn't. And I think you are intelligent enough to understand that. Unless you are immune to reason.

 

It does not take EVERYONE in the market to prefer Z over Y for Z to be able to sell at a premium. This is an important point. If some portion of the market prefers Z to Y, and the rest of the market doesn't care, then economics theory says that Z can sell for a premium. If, on the other hand, half the market prefers Z over Y, and the other half prefers Y over Z, then maybe they will cancel eachother out and neither will sell at a premium.

 

However, I don't think you are going to argue that the ones who do not prefer good PQ, actually prefers bad PQ?

 

No, I'm sure we agree they just don't really care (for whatever reason), and the other part cares.

 

And it does not matter whether CGC PQ assignment is perfect (or even correct) or not. As long as some people think it matters what PQ CGC assigns, and prefer better PQ assigned books - these books are able to demand a premium.

 

This (inconsistency as you call it) logically and according to all economics theory we know results in a premium to better PQ books.

 

The problem with your entire argument is that it operates in a vacuum. If you see a book with "white pages" on the label sell for more than another book, you are "assuming" that was the reason, or even the primary reason, when in fact there are a *multitude* of other factors that can and do impact the price of a book.

 

Similarly, if a book with "light tan" or whatever pages on the label sells for more the next day, you rationalize away why that might have happened, attributing the very external factors to that data point that you chose to ignore with the "white pages" book.

 

In other words, you see what you want to see with tunnel vision only that which supports a conclusion that you want to believe.

 

Unfortunately, however the data points on the open market simply do not support what you want to believe.

 

-J.

[Jaydogrules]

I can see Jaydog's stance at PQ with regards to CGC because it is not as consistent as everyone thinks it is. I personally have subbed two books twice in which both times CGC noted a different PQ. One of them went from white pages to offwhite-white while the other went from cream-offwhite to offwhite all in a matter of months. I know that PQ does not "degrade" that quickly as it takes a long time for pages to deteriorate even under extreme conditions. PQ can also be subjective just like grading a book, but as long as the PQ is right around the area such as the ones I mentioned above and not going extreme from white to cream-offwhite or worst, then it shouldn't be too big of a deal.

 

But like most everyone has mentioned, I also think white pages command a premium in older books.

 

Yes I too have had "PQ" flip flop on re-subs, and have heard more than a few similar stories from others. Once it was so egregious I had to call them and ask what the heck was up with that. Ever since then if I see a nice presenting book I want, the "PQ" (barring "brittle", but I would consider even that if it was a tough GA book) is literally the last thing that I pay any attention to.

 

-J.

[AlexanderM]

Jaydog, watch tonight's Pawn Stars where Greg Reece brings in a couple books to sell, including an Avengers 1. Paul Litch grades the books and deems the Avengers 1 a 6.5 . As a flaw he explicitly mentions the cream pages, proving poor page quality affects the grade, as well it should.

Page quality is the best indicator of preservation and it is rewarded in the marketplace..

 

I saw the episode. The whole discussion was very informal and no one ever said the price is "X" because of "Y".

 

And yes, sometimes the so called "PQ" on the label is "rewarded" as you say. And sometimes it isn't. As such, it is inconsistent and impossible to quantify, which therefore makes it essentially meaningless.

 

-J.

 

No it doesn't. And I think you are intelligent enough to understand that. Unless you are immune to reason.

 

It does not take EVERYONE in the market to prefer Z over Y for Z to be able to sell at a premium. This is an important point. If some portion of the market prefers Z to Y, and the rest of the market doesn't care, then economics theory says that Z can sell for a premium. If, on the other hand, half the market prefers Z over Y, and the other half prefers Y over Z, then maybe they will cancel eachother out and neither will sell at a premium.

 

However, I don't think you are going to argue that the ones who do not prefer good PQ, actually prefers bad PQ?

 

No, I'm sure we agree they just don't really care (for whatever reason), and the other part cares.

 

And it does not matter whether CGC PQ assignment is perfect (or even correct) or not. As long as some people think it matters what PQ CGC assigns, and prefer better PQ assigned books - these books are able to demand a premium.

 

This (inconsistency as you call it) logically and according to all economics theory we know results in a premium to better PQ books.

 

The problem with your entire argument is that it operates in a vacuum. If you see a book with "white pages" on the label sell for more than another book, you are "assuming" that was the reason, or even the primary reason, when in fact there are a *multitude* of other factors that can and do impact the price of a book.

 

Similarly, if a book with "light tan" or whatever pages on the label sells for more the next day, you rationalize away why that might have happened, attributing the very external factors to that data point that you chose to ignore with the "white pages" book.

 

In other words, you see what you want to see with tunnel vision only that which supports a conclusion that you want to believe.

 

Unfortunately, however the data points on the open market simply do not support what you want to believe.

 

-J.

 

Nope. you seem to be replying to what you think the common argument is. And something about me (and everyone else it seems) seeing a book with good PQ sell for more one day and therefor we assume it matters..

 

I never made such an argument - and never would.

 

Try to understand what is going on - and what I was saying. All other factors matter - such as of course grade etc. However, PQ also matters (less than grade obviously) and it should be pretty impossible to not understand why if you read my above explanation.

 

It is a matter of the most basic economics of demand and supply theory. And not about my or your personal experiences with what books have sold for.

[Action252Kid]

So there is a 2.5 WHITE AF 15 ending on eBay in a few days. Jay, you're saying that it will not sell at a premium to what a CR/OW AF 15 would bring? I'd say you're wrong.

 

I understand that LT books can sell for more than OW/W or White books, depending on overall appearance and other factors -- but to say that there are NO people who are willing to pay a premium for a WHITE page copy is just wrong.

 

I've had AF 15's before and can't get too excited about buying/holding a copy for myself since they are always available -- but a decent looking copy with White pages excites me, since you don't see them every day. So even if you just add me (one bidder) into the equation, then the book could/should sell for more than what a CR/OW copy with the identical appearance would bring.

[Jaydogrules]

So there is a 2.5 WHITE AF 15 ending on eBay in a few days. Jay, you're saying that it will not sell at a premium to what a CR/OW AF 15 would bring? I'd say you're wrong.

 

I understand that LT books can sell for more than OW/W or White books, depending on overall appearance and other factors -- but to say that there are NO people who are willing to pay a premium for a WHITE page copy is just wrong.

 

I've had AF 15's before and can't get too excited about buying/holding a copy for myself since they are always available -- but a decent looking copy with White pages excites me, since you don't see them every day. So even if you just add me (one bidder) into the equation, then the book could/should sell for more than what a CR/OW copy with the identical appearance would bring.

 

I never said that there are "no people" who would pay a "premium" (either real or imagined). The scenario that I present (which happens everyday in the market) is this: someone pays let's say what they think is a 5% or whatever "premium" for a book that says "white pages" in an auction. Then three days later someone pops a BIN on ebay for the same book in grade with "cr/ow" pages on the label for $500 more than what the "white pages" book just went for.

 

What, exactly can we take away from that ?

 

Nothing is what.

 

As for that 2.5 AF 15 on ebay now, if anything the marvel chipping will hold it back. That actually impacts eye appeal. Seeing "white pages" written on a label does not mitigate that. Or maybe it does. Who knows? That's the problem- nobody knows. Nothing is absolute and each book is considered on its own merits, with its own sets of pluses and minuses. Using a big key like that is probably not the best example anyway, since the demand is usually strong enough to overwhelm any real "PQ" considerations anyway.

 

-J.

 

 

[Jaydogrules]

Jaydog, watch tonight's Pawn Stars where Greg Reece brings in a couple books to sell, including an Avengers 1. Paul Litch grades the books and deems the Avengers 1 a 6.5 . As a flaw he explicitly mentions the cream pages, proving poor page quality affects the grade, as well it should.

Page quality is the best indicator of preservation and it is rewarded in the marketplace..

 

I saw the episode. The whole discussion was very informal and no one ever said the price is "X" because of "Y".

 

And yes, sometimes the so called "PQ" on the label is "rewarded" as you say. And sometimes it isn't. As such, it is inconsistent and impossible to quantify, which therefore makes it essentially meaningless.

 

-J.

 

No it doesn't. And I think you are intelligent enough to understand that. Unless you are immune to reason.

 

It does not take EVERYONE in the market to prefer Z over Y for Z to be able to sell at a premium. This is an important point. If some portion of the market prefers Z to Y, and the rest of the market doesn't care, then economics theory says that Z can sell for a premium. If, on the other hand, half the market prefers Z over Y, and the other half prefers Y over Z, then maybe they will cancel eachother out and neither will sell at a premium.

 

However, I don't think you are going to argue that the ones who do not prefer good PQ, actually prefers bad PQ?

 

No, I'm sure we agree they just don't really care (for whatever reason), and the other part cares.

 

And it does not matter whether CGC PQ assignment is perfect (or even correct) or not. As long as some people think it matters what PQ CGC assigns, and prefer better PQ assigned books - these books are able to demand a premium.

 

This (inconsistency as you call it) logically and according to all economics theory we know results in a premium to better PQ books.

 

The problem with your entire argument is that it operates in a vacuum. If you see a book with "white pages" on the label sell for more than another book, you are "assuming" that was the reason, or even the primary reason, when in fact there are a *multitude* of other factors that can and do impact the price of a book.

 

Similarly, if a book with "light tan" or whatever pages on the label sells for more the next day, you rationalize away why that might have happened, attributing the very external factors to that data point that you chose to ignore with the "white pages" book.

 

In other words, you see what you want to see with tunnel vision only that which supports a conclusion that you want to believe.

 

Unfortunately, however the data points on the open market simply do not support what you want to believe.

 

-J.

 

Nope. you seem to be replying to what you think the common argument is. And something about me (and everyone else it seems) seeing a book with good PQ sell for more one day and therefor we assume it matters..

 

I never made such an argument - and never would.

 

Try to understand what is going on - and what I was saying. All other factors matter - such as of course grade etc. However, PQ also matters (less than grade obviously) and it should be pretty impossible to not understand why if you read my above explanation.

 

It is a matter of the most basic economics of demand and supply theory. And not about my or your personal experiences with what books have sold for.

 

You're right I was responding to your post with a broad swath I apologize.

 

Specifically as to your point, I feel I addressed that in my subsequent post ie, in order for books with "white pages" to even average out to any "premium", however slight, books that don't say "white pages" on the label would have to always sell for less. And they do not. Books that don't have "white pages" written on the label routinely sell for more than those that do. For whatever reason, they simply do. Which is why the alleged perceived "premium" is essentially a net of zero.

 

-J.

[Dark Knight]

Everyone is entitled to whatever kind of books they want to buy whether it has this defect or that defect or this PQ or that PQ. Some people care about PQ, some people don't. But, when it comes down to a rare book that is hardly ever up for sale (even more so a key and/or a classic cover), throw away the PQ because it will sell for a high price.