Incredible Hulk 181 CGC Prices are...

[Foolkiller]

Sounds like multiple points being argued in the same thread.

 

There's no question TMNT is unquestionably the larger property. I don't think it's a "billion dollar property"

 

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/london-expo-nickelodeon-touts-475-649396

 

However, that not withstanding, the turtles are more powerful as a franchise.

 

That doesn't make the comic book "more requested or desired" than say, New Mutants 98 or whatever.

 

Value and importance may be separate from how the comic world judges popularity. Among comic collectors, I don't believe TMNT is nearly as popular as deadpool. Among people at large, TMNT wins in a landslide.

 

 

 

Your points are valid, but it really depends on who you ask when you say "comic collectors." Since we can't poll the world, we will likely never know.

 

I will contend though, that the most powerful franchises will drive the most valuable comics long term.

 

I totally agree on the proof point. It's really hard from an evidentiary standpoint to start debating, and even the figures surrounding current sales are not a clear indicator of the turtles property or lack thereof amongst vintage collectors.

 

I'm drawing upon my experience in the high end vintage area and my perspective generally that I don't get the feel that owning a Turtles 1 has the same cache as owning many others. The demographic collecting Copper just doesn't seem as "in love" with owning a Turtles 1, and it's not "just" a factor of cost.

 

I've owned a few Turtles 1, and have never wanted to hold onto it. I rarely hear it discussed as a grail book for a large number of collectors. For a few, yes, but not in the numbers that core super heroes still draw.

 

With that said, I've always thought Turtles 1 to be the most valuable of the Copper age books (without question, though I'm not sure that was always the case, someone with a better sense of history can correct this), and clearly has significant importance.

[BarryAllen]

Sounds like multiple points being argued in the same thread.

 

There's no question TMNT is unquestionably the larger property. I don't think it's a "billion dollar property"

 

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/london-expo-nickelodeon-touts-475-649396

 

However, that not withstanding, the turtles are more powerful as a franchise.

 

That doesn't make the comic book "more requested or desired" than say, New Mutants 98 or whatever.

 

Value and importance may be separate from how the comic world judges popularity. Among comic collectors, I don't believe TMNT is nearly as popular as deadpool. Among people at large, TMNT wins in a landslide.

 

 

 

Your points are valid, but it really depends on who you ask when you say "comic collectors." Since we can't poll the world, we will likely never know.

 

I will contend though, that the most powerful franchises will drive the most valuable comics long term.

 

I totally agree on the proof point. It's really hard from an evidentiary standpoint to start debating, and even the figures surrounding current sales are not a clear indicator of the turtles property or lack thereof amongst vintage collectors.

 

I'm drawing upon my experience in the high end vintage area and my perspective generally that I don't get the feel that owning a Turtles 1 has the same cache as owning many others. The demographic collecting Copper just doesn't seem as "in love" with owning a Turtles 1, and it's not "just" a factor of cost.

 

I've owned a few Turtles 1, and have never wanted to hold onto it. I rarely hear it discussed as a grail book for a large number of collectors. For a few, yes, but not in the numbers that core super heroes still draw.

 

With that said, I've always thought Turtles 1 to be the most valuable of the Copper age books (without question, though I'm not sure that was always the case, someone with a better sense of history can correct this), and clearly has significant importance.

 

I can't speak to all comic history either, but I have bought and sold dozens of copies of TMNT 1. There is a large fan base of Deadpool right now, but it is relatively new and still unproven. There has been a steady stream of TMNT 1 collectors for 20 years and counting. These are the kids that grew up with the original cartoon and now have the cash to buy the source of their childhood joy. I can't say that Deadpool will have the same nostalgiac impact on kids these days. Sure it is cool, but we will have to see where he is in 15 years. We will see.

[Chiefs1313]

Are we talking about IH 181 prices?

[BarryAllen]

Are we talking about IH 181 prices?

 

In fairness the title of the thread is completely misleading. The question the OP posed is "what is the key of the Bronze Age?"

 

:shrug:

 

Seems like relevant conversation so far.

[Hulksdaddy1]

Maybe the reason people don't inquire about the TMNT #1 is because they already assume it is going to be having a big money tag on it. I think new collectors or fans of Deadpool and Venom can afford the $1000 or less it will cost them to get a high grade copy. Turtles forget it.

 

Nah ... it's because Deadpool and Venom are far more popular than the turtles. The current TMNT series sells about 15-17k copies a month - that's not terrible, but it's a far cry from the 90-100k copies the regular Deadpool series moves.

 

The people who can afford to spend $1000 on a NM #98 in 9.8 could most likely also afford to pick up a nice copy of TMNT #1 - but they choose not to.

 

Ah, no. You cherry picked Deadpool #45, the Deadpool "Death" issue. Deadpool sells 40-45k monthly. Better than turtles books, no doubt, but not 80k more.

 

Turtles outsells Deadpool in every other way. Cartoons, merchandise, toys, etc etc.

[valiantman]

Yes, there likely ARE more people who want to buy a New Mutants #98... but there are plenty of NM 98.

 

If 1,500 people want to own a CGC 9.8 New Mutants #98, that's no problem. There are 1,900+ slabbed.

 

But if there are 20 people TOTAL who want to own a CGC 9.8 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1 at ANY price... Sorry... there are only 18 on the census.

 

When it comes to keys... the underpriced ones are always obvious when you compare the price to the quantity.

 

Hulk #1 was obviously underpriced for years.

Price times quantity was very low compared to other Silver Age Marvel keys.

 

TMNT #1 is far more underpriced than even the lowest underpriced Hulk #1 from years ago...

because Hulk was never in the argument for "top character" of the Silver Age.

It was always Spider-man. AF #15 was underpriced, clearly, even when it was on top...

because the price times the quantity available was still too low.

 

Price times quantity for NM #98 isn't low... in fact... it's very scary how high it is.

As long as demand is there, NM #98 should be fine... but if demand drops any... excess supply could be a problem.

 

Excess supply will never be a problem for TMNT #1. If the price skyrockets, there won't be a flood of them.

 

NM #98 already has nearly 2,000 copies in CGC 9.8 slabs. I hope the demand stays 100 times the demand for TMNT #1 because the supply is way up there.

[valiantman]

Getting back to the original topic... let's look at price times supply for CGC 9.8.

 

Hulk #181 has 93 copies at CGC 9.8 or higher. The last 9.8 sale was $11,000.

93 times $11,000 is $1,023,000.

 

New Mutants #98 has 1,924 copies at CGC 9.8 or higher. The last 9.8 sale was $850.

1,924 times $850 is $1,635,400.

 

Is Deadpool one-and-a-half times more popular than Wolverine?

As far as the top copies of their first appearances go... the "market as a whole" currently thinks so.

Is that sustainable? If not, either Deadpool will drop or Wolverine will continue to increase.

 

ASM #300 has 723 copies at CGC 9.8 or higher. The last 9.8 sale was $1,000.

723 times $1,000 is $723,000.

Is Deadpool more than twice as popular as Venom (or twice as popular as ASM #300)?

The "market as a whole" currently thinks so. Is that sustainable?

If not, either Deadpool will drop or ASM #300 will need to increase.

 

Meanwhile, TMNT #1 has 18 copies at CGC 9.8. The last 9.8 sale was $15,000.

18 times $15,000 is $270,000.

 

We can't use CGC 9.8 for all keys... if the general idea of "top copies" is lower than CGC 9.8, you need to go lower for the calculation.

You could use CGC 9.6 and above if you wanted for Hulk #181, NM #98, ASM #300 and TMNT #1. The math works the same.

 

For AF #15, you'd probably want to look at CGC 8.0 and higher... those are "top copies" of AF #15.

For Action #1 and Detective #27, we'd probably want to look at the whole population.

 

Books of the same age probably need the same cutoff grade, but for big differences between comics ages, it's OK to change the "top copies" cutoff grades.

 

Or, if you're really feeling comprehensive, you could calculate the whole market value of the census.

Average price of a CGC 10 times the number of CGC 10.

Average price of a CGC 9.9 times the number of CGC 9.9.

Average price of a CGC 9.8 times the number of CGC 9.8.

Average price of a CGC 9.6 times the number of CGC 9.6.

Average price of a CGC 9.4 times the number of CGC 9.4.

...etc... then add them up.

 

The "price times supply" calculation for the "market as a whole" is very useful.

There are old topics around here for "market cap" (market capitalization) if any nerds want to further nerdify. (thumbs u

 

Hulk #1 is the perfect example of where a "market correction" significantly increased the value of a book.

It might not have been because the buyers did the math themselves... but "the invisible hand of the market" generally does the math (eventually).

[BarryAllen]

Two good posts.

[Lazyboy]

Lets say at any comic book show you arranged on a wall a CGC 9.6/9.8 copy of:

 

ASM 300 TMNT #1 NM #98

(Left) (center) (right)

 

 

In what order would you think people would inquire about each?

 

Are they priced? At market value? Are the prices easily visible from the customers POV?

 

I am obviously being condensing to most of you boardies

 

TMNT #1 is in 3rd place behind these other 2 books at all times.

 

NM 98 and ASM 300 are asked about far more than TMNT #1 and that has been for years now.

 

I could care less which book is worth more, my point is TMNT #1 is not the most important key of the Copper Age anymore. Value yes, importance no.

 

Why did you quote my post if you weren't even going to attempt anything resembling a response to the questions posed?

 

Does anyone ever ask about Action 1 or Tec 27? Why not? I guess they aren't important and have no demand.

 

Of the three, Deadpool is no doubt the hottest. He's never been more popular than he is now. Venom's popularity peaked in the 90s and hasn't been even close since, though he certainly hasn't faded into obscurity. TMNT may not be as popular as it was 25 years ago either, but it's a solid property.

 

Personally, I don't care about TMNT 1 (or any of the comics, for that matter) despite growing up with the original cartoon and toys and movies.

[Topnotchman]

If there were equal supply amongst the three books one could compare the highest value and conclude which book has the most demand. We do not have equal supply so scarcity is driving the value of Turtles #1.

 

I think there is somewhat similar supply with New Mutants 98 and ASM 300 which create similar values. 9.6 NM98 $425.00 9.6 ASM300 $415.00, 9.4 NM98 350, 9.4 ASM300 300.00.

 

If there was equal available supply of Turtles #1, I believe it would come in a distant third behind the leader New Mutants 98 followed closely by ASM 300 in the three horse race.

 

 

[Noodlez]

Lets say at any comic book show you arranged on a wall a CGC 9.6/9.8 copy of:

 

ASM 300 TMNT #1 NM #98

(Left) (center) (right)

 

 

In what order would you think people would inquire about each?

 

Are they priced? At market value? Are the prices easily visible from the customers POV?

 

I am obviously being condensing to most of you boardies

 

TMNT #1 is in 3rd place behind these other 2 books at all times.

 

NM 98 and ASM 300 are asked about far more than TMNT #1 and that has been for years now.

 

I could care less which book is worth more, my point is TMNT #1 is not the most important key of the Copper Age anymore. Value yes, importance no.

 

 

You are out of your gourd. You arguments are based on picking points of information you like and omitting or ignoring points you don't like.

 

TMNT has far more fans than either Deadpool or Venom is a fact.

TMNT has had multiple cartoons, multiple movies and multiple billions of merchandise sold for going past 30 years now.

Deadpool current comic sells the best is a fact.

Deadpool is very popular in comics, but is still unproven as a long term sustainable character.

None one under the age of 15 know who Venom is (outside New Warriors version) is a fact.

Spider-Man is very popular, but focus on Venom as a key villian faded away in the 90's.

 

If you take supply and demand into play, market pricing has already dictated which of these three books is most key.

 

You are grasping at straws in the crazy mug my friend.

 

 

My son is 10. He knows who Venom is because of Amazing Spider-Man 3. The movie was released in 2007.

 

Only knows of Deadpool because of the video game. Only knows of the Turtles because of Nickelodeon.

 

Current generation is after what's trending.

 

Deadpool

Venom

Avengers

Spiderman

Batman

Hulk

Quinn

Joker

 

 

Turtles...not "as much".

 

 

Point is, my son is 10 and knows who Venom is. Who's cooler between the 3? He says Venom, then Deadpool and then Dragon Ball Z Kai...

[BarryAllen]

Lets say at any comic book show you arranged on a wall a CGC 9.6/9.8 copy of:

 

ASM 300 TMNT #1 NM #98

(Left) (center) (right)

 

 

In what order would you think people would inquire about each?

 

Are they priced? At market value? Are the prices easily visible from the customers POV?

 

I am obviously being condensing to most of you boardies

 

TMNT #1 is in 3rd place behind these other 2 books at all times.

 

NM 98 and ASM 300 are asked about far more than TMNT #1 and that has been for years now.

 

I could care less which book is worth more, my point is TMNT #1 is not the most important key of the Copper Age anymore. Value yes, importance no.

 

 

You are out of your gourd. You arguments are based on picking points of information you like and omitting or ignoring points you don't like.

 

TMNT has far more fans than either Deadpool or Venom is a fact.

TMNT has had multiple cartoons, multiple movies and multiple billions of merchandise sold for going past 30 years now.

Deadpool current comic sells the best is a fact.

Deadpool is very popular in comics, but is still unproven as a long term sustainable character.

None one under the age of 15 know who Venom is (outside New Warriors version) is a fact.

Spider-Man is very popular, but focus on Venom as a key villian faded away in the 90's.

 

If you take supply and demand into play, market pricing has already dictated which of these three books is most key.

 

You are grasping at straws in the crazy mug my friend.

 

 

My son is 10. He knows who Venom is because of Amazing Spider-Man 3. The movie was released in 2007.

 

Only knows of Deadpool because of the video game. Only knows of the Turtles because of Nickelodeon.

 

Current generation is after what's trending.

 

Deadpool

Venom

Avengers

Spiderman

Batman

Hulk

Quinn

Joker

 

 

Turtles...not "as much".

 

 

Point is, my son is 10 and knows who Venom is. Who's cooler between the 3? He says Venom, then Deadpool and then Dragon Ball Z Kai...

 

I was exaggerating for effect, of course there are kids who have some idea who Venom is.

 

10 year olds are not buying $500 plus copies of ASM 300 or NM 98... I am glad he knows what he likes, but I know plenty of other kids that love TMNT and some that love Deadpool. My point is that Deadpool is currently popular and Venom was popular but TMNT have consistently been popular with kids for decades. Maybe your 10 year old didn't like them or grew out of them early, but it is a franchise that endures and has proven that adults who were fans as kids come back around. Venom "might" be that way, but his popularity is intrinsically tied to Spider-man so it is hard to tell. Deadpool has a long way to go before he can be considered in the same league as TMNT.

 

Dragon Ball, Z and Kai are cool.

[NewWorldOrder]

Are we talking about IH 181 prices?

 

Not really as I just started this thread to see what debates we can come up with.

 

I just like to see all the fan boys get all up in arms about their passionate collectors items, especially TMNT fans.

 

 

 

 

[passion4comics]

Someone paid 16k for a 9.8 white copy in December? That's a pop with a few 13k sales.

 

TMNT is a rare book. That's the only thing keeping its price up. If it were as plentiful as NM98 or ASM300 I don't think it would be on most people's radar. The TMNT fans would have their copies, but the price would probably be on par or up to 300% more because it's the copper gorilla compared to the other two books we're debating. It has that #1 on it. That usually makes it stand out among other keys too.

[BarryAllen]

Are we talking about IH 181 prices?

 

Not really as I just started this thread to see what debates we can come up with.

 

I just like to see all the fan boys get all up in arms about their passionate collectors items, especially TMNT fans.

 

 

 

 

Says the guy with the Venom avatar proclaiming ASM 300 to be king of Copper...

 

:shrug:

[Noodlez]

Lets say at any comic book show you arranged on a wall a CGC 9.6/9.8 copy of:

 

ASM 300 TMNT #1 NM #98

(Left) (center) (right)

 

 

In what order would you think people would inquire about each?

 

Are they priced? At market value? Are the prices easily visible from the customers POV?

 

I am obviously being condensing to most of you boardies

 

TMNT #1 is in 3rd place behind these other 2 books at all times.

 

NM 98 and ASM 300 are asked about far more than TMNT #1 and that has been for years now.

 

I could care less which book is worth more, my point is TMNT #1 is not the most important key of the Copper Age anymore. Value yes, importance no.

 

 

You are out of your gourd. You arguments are based on picking points of information you like and omitting or ignoring points you don't like.

 

TMNT has far more fans than either Deadpool or Venom is a fact.

TMNT has had multiple cartoons, multiple movies and multiple billions of merchandise sold for going past 30 years now.

Deadpool current comic sells the best is a fact.

Deadpool is very popular in comics, but is still unproven as a long term sustainable character.

None one under the age of 15 know who Venom is (outside New Warriors version) is a fact.

Spider-Man is very popular, but focus on Venom as a key villian faded away in the 90's.

 

If you take supply and demand into play, market pricing has already dictated which of these three books is most key.

 

You are grasping at straws in the crazy mug my friend.

 

 

My son is 10. He knows who Venom is because of Amazing Spider-Man 3. The movie was released in 2007.

 

Only knows of Deadpool because of the video game. Only knows of the Turtles because of Nickelodeon.

 

Current generation is after what's trending.

 

Deadpool

Venom

Avengers

Spiderman

Batman

Hulk

Quinn

Joker

 

 

Turtles...not "as much".

 

 

Point is, my son is 10 and knows who Venom is. Who's cooler between the 3? He says Venom, then Deadpool and then Dragon Ball Z Kai...

 

I was exaggerating for effect, of course there are kids who have some idea who Venom is.

 

10 year olds are not buying $500 plus copies of ASM 300 or NM 98... I am glad he knows what he likes, but I know plenty of other kids that love TMNT and some that love Deadpool. My point is that Deadpool is currently popular and Venom was popular but TMNT have consistently been popular with kids for decades. Maybe your 10 year old didn't like them or grew out of them early, but it is a franchise that endures and has proven that adults who were fans as kids come back around. Venom "might" be that way, but his popularity is intrinsically tied to Spider-man so it is hard to tell. Deadpool has a long way to go before he can be considered in the same league as TMNT.

 

Dragon Ball, Z and Kai are cool.

 

I was just saying...

 

You did say that it was a "fact" and not an "exaggeration".

 

He didn't even finish the original Turtles movie...said it was dumb . I on the other hand beg to differ.

 

I think our generation (1978- current) compared to today's generation has a lot to do with current sales when discussing Hulk 181, ASM 300, NM 98 and TMNT 1.

 

Honestly. I'd rather haver a nice Hulk 181 than the rest.

[Noodlez]

TMNT 1 3000 copies. Yes it's more valuable. Wish I had the funds to own one in high grade. Would rather own a Hulk 181 in higher grade though.

[Hulksdaddy1]

Someone paid 16k for a 9.8 white copy in December? That's a pop with a few 13k sales.

 

TMNT is a rare book. That's the only thing keeping its price up. If it were as plentiful as NM98 or ASM300 I don't think it would be on most people's radar. The TMNT fans would have their copies, but the price would probably be on par or up to 300% more because it's the copper gorilla compared to the other two books we're debating. It has that #1 on it. That usually makes it stand out among other keys too.

 

Same could be said for Action #1.

 

You know who kids don't give a about? Superman.

 

Deadpool will fade away. Venom is transparent already. TMNT might as well, but of the three, it's got the most presence in pop culture, by a lot. TMNT are far more popular than the other two, not even close. That alone makes it the key, because all that popularity will translate to demand as years go by. My son is 8. For every Halloween, lots of Turtles, no Deadpools or Venoms.

 

NM98 and ASM300 are the Camry and the Accord.

 

TMNT1 is the CTS-V Wagon with 6 speed manual. (c'mon car guys, come out and play. )

 

Or, maybe all tank, no one cares, and we buy them for $1 each 20 years from now, right along side Beavis & Butthead #1s.

 

 

[BarryAllen]

Lets say at any comic book show you arranged on a wall a CGC 9.6/9.8 copy of:

 

ASM 300 TMNT #1 NM #98

(Left) (center) (right)

 

 

In what order would you think people would inquire about each?

 

Are they priced? At market value? Are the prices easily visible from the customers POV?

 

I am obviously being condensing to most of you boardies

 

TMNT #1 is in 3rd place behind these other 2 books at all times.

 

NM 98 and ASM 300 are asked about far more than TMNT #1 and that has been for years now.

 

I could care less which book is worth more, my point is TMNT #1 is not the most important key of the Copper Age anymore. Value yes, importance no.

 

 

You are out of your gourd. You arguments are based on picking points of information you like and omitting or ignoring points you don't like.

 

TMNT has far more fans than either Deadpool or Venom is a fact.

TMNT has had multiple cartoons, multiple movies and multiple billions of merchandise sold for going past 30 years now.

Deadpool current comic sells the best is a fact.

Deadpool is very popular in comics, but is still unproven as a long term sustainable character.

None one under the age of 15 know who Venom is (outside New Warriors version) is a fact.

Spider-Man is very popular, but focus on Venom as a key villian faded away in the 90's.

 

If you take supply and demand into play, market pricing has already dictated which of these three books is most key.

 

You are grasping at straws in the crazy mug my friend.

 

 

My son is 10. He knows who Venom is because of Amazing Spider-Man 3. The movie was released in 2007.

 

Only knows of Deadpool because of the video game. Only knows of the Turtles because of Nickelodeon.

 

Current generation is after what's trending.

 

Deadpool

Venom

Avengers

Spiderman

Batman

Hulk

Quinn

Joker

 

 

Turtles...not "as much".

 

 

Point is, my son is 10 and knows who Venom is. Who's cooler between the 3? He says Venom, then Deadpool and then Dragon Ball Z Kai...

 

I was exaggerating for effect, of course there are kids who have some idea who Venom is.

 

10 year olds are not buying $500 plus copies of ASM 300 or NM 98... I am glad he knows what he likes, but I know plenty of other kids that love TMNT and some that love Deadpool. My point is that Deadpool is currently popular and Venom was popular but TMNT have consistently been popular with kids for decades. Maybe your 10 year old didn't like them or grew out of them early, but it is a franchise that endures and has proven that adults who were fans as kids come back around. Venom "might" be that way, but his popularity is intrinsically tied to Spider-man so it is hard to tell. Deadpool has a long way to go before he can be considered in the same league as TMNT.

 

Dragon Ball, Z and Kai are cool.

 

I was just saying...

 

You did say that it was a "fact" and not an "exaggeration".

 

He didn't even finish the original Turtles movie...said it was dumb . I on the other hand beg to differ.

 

I think our generation (1978- current) compared to today's generation has a lot to do with current sales when discussing Hulk 181, ASM 300, NM 98 and TMNT 1.

 

Honestly. I'd rather haver a nice Hulk 181 than the rest.

 

We're chatting online, I took a liberty, you called me on it. Fair enough.

 

You're right, our generation is very relevant, but Deadpool is not a character from our youth so much as our adulthood. His popularity really didn't come on until the 2000's en mass and recent movie speculation is driving a huge amount of the book value. Let's face it, NM 98 and 90's Deadpool is mostly junk. Modern Deadpool since 2001ish, much much better and recently some great stories.

 

IH 181 has a strong Marvel character with a great foundation. My biggest concern is where he is taken while Fox owns mutants. Couple that with an extremely high level of availability and those mid/low grade books could drop fairly easily. Taking a quick look at GPA, there is very little price separation between many grades which is indicative of a widely available book. Yes people want it, but when someone pays the same thing for a 2.5 that they do for a 4.0, you have an unhealthy market. There is high demand, but the supply is huge and many flippers, dealers and scammers are claiming rarity to drive up prices. At some point separation will set in between the grades and many people will be left holding the proverbial bag. No Bueno.

 

But if you are want a copy out of love for Wolvie, and don't care about resale value, I totally get it.

 

:shrug:

[jreezy]

I agree, I love TMNT #1 but for the masses NM98 is the clear winner and once this movie hits it's not going to look back.

 

Dammit - now I have to go buy some copies

 

I regret selling my copy last year