Using GPA to price Raw high 9.6/9.8 grade books

[jsilverjanet]

Getting people to pay full GPA prices on graded books is difficult enough

 

Then you have those who state books have press potential and price their books at least two grades higher

 

 

[Meeklo]

The best one I have seen lately is a LCS in Austin that has a raw NM copy of Spawn #9 on the wall and they are asking $60 for it.

 

I asked why and they called it a "negotiation piece". I called it a sign that they don't know how to price books and got outta there...

[Broke as a Joke]

Selling raw 9.8 books at slabbed 9.8 prices??

 

Why is it

 

Some people don't want the book in a slab, regardless of the grade.

 

Then they should buy it slabbed and crack it out. Especially if they are paying near GPA 9.8 price.

 

But hey like you and others have said it comes down to preference. For both the buyer and the seller. I just think it's a risky proposition.

[VintageComics]

Getting people to pay full GPA prices on graded books is difficult enough

 

But getting someone to pay full GPA for a raw book is not really the point.

 

The point is that the buyer can pay what they want to pay and the seller can ask what they want to ask. That's the way it works.

 

And who am I to tell someone not to pay full (or near GPA) for a raw book?

 

This corner of the market that hangs out on the CGC chat forum is so datacentric.

 

We won't pay over GPA.

We won't pay for loosely graded books.

We won't pay GPA prices for raw books.

 

Much of the world doesn't scrutinize a sale or think like that. They see a book they like, they look in their pocket to see if they can afford it and the buy it. End of story.

 

These sort of discussions fail to realize that there are a zillion different types of markets out there, and the market in your neck of the woods might be entirely different than the market in mine.

 

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

Selling raw 9.8 books at slabbed 9.8 prices??

 

Why is it

 

Some people don't want the book in a slab, regardless of the grade.

 

Then they should buy it slabbed and crack it out. Especially if they are paying near GPA 9.8 price.

 

But hey like you and others have said it comes down to preference. For both the buyer and the seller. I just think it's a risky proposition.

 

How is it risky?

 

You're assuming the buyer is looking for an exit strategy and resale value. What if he's just looking for a pristine copy of a book?

 

Now in my particular instance, what I charged my customer was GPA minus the slabbing costs minus another small discount because he took a batch.

 

But he was freaking thrilled to pay $100's of dollars for each raw 9.8 bronze book for his run. In fact, I offered to slab them first and he adamantly said he didn't want the books slabbed. He closely scrutinized the books and bought the ones he liked. And who am I to argue?

 

Different strokes, folks.

[01TheDude]

Shouldn't a raw 9.8 book be one of the easiest books to grade? A 9.8 should have almost no flaws or a very minor flaw; so a dealer should be able to see if a book has almost no flaws. I see nothing wrong with using gpa minus grading fees to price a 9.8.

Would I buy a raw 9.8 at 9.8 prices? No, but that's because I'm risk averse and I like to limit my downward risk; but I feel confident that I could identify a slam dunk 9.8.

 

this was my thinking as well. The real question to me is determining how much it is worth to the buyer to get the book raw yet ungraded. Say you have a $1000 GPA for a particular book and are offering it ungraded but clearly the book will grade very highly (meeting the grade of the $1000 GPA). The difference should be the cost of shipping, grading, the guarantee of the grade itself (restoration detection), and throw in a convenience fee for going through the process. Perhaps someone who deals with a lot of these levels of books can give a good example of the costs to get a book like that encapsulated. As I understand it, the fees are on a sliding scale of the books FMV. Based on that, I would imagine a simple formula could be devised to give appropriate graded versus raw pricing at any grade (with of course the typical wiggle room for negotiation).

 

While it is true that some of us (myself included) are only interested in raw books, the data from CGC books GPA can be great for benchmarking values. But I agree with the OP that simply pricing a perceived 9.8 raw book at the same price as a 9.8 slabbed book is a slap in the face of the entire process of slabbing itself. There is definable value added to the book by the encapsulation/grading process.

[blazingbob]

Yes, that would be the restoration portion.

 

So while Roy is happy to give the buyer the raw books priced at GPA less grading and discount I'm assuming that the book comes with a unlimited restoration free refund period since that buyer may sell the book to someone else who gets it graded.

 

 

[jsilverjanet]

Getting people to pay full GPA prices on graded books is difficult enough

 

But getting someone to pay full GPA for a raw book is not really the point.

 

The point is that the buyer can pay what they want to pay and the seller can ask what they want to ask. That's the way it works.

 

And who am I to tell someone not to pay full (or near GPA) for a raw book?

 

This corner of the market that hangs out on the CGC chat forum is so datacentric.

 

We won't pay over GPA.

We won't pay for loosely graded books.

We won't pay GPA prices for raw books.

 

Much of the world doesn't scrutinize a sale or think like that. They see a book they like, they look in their pocket to see if they can afford it and the buy it. End of story.

 

These sort of discussions fail to realize that there are a zillion different types of markets out there, and the market in your neck of the woods might be entirely different than the market in mine.

 

 

 

 

I agree with your comments, I was specifically talking about the market here on the boards. I rarely get full GPA or over GPA on graded books. Most of the time I'm discounting 10% ebay fees for selling here.

 

I'm not complaing, just providing my experience of sales in relation to GPA

 

 

[paperheart]

Getting people to pay full GPA prices on graded books is difficult enough

 

But getting someone to pay full GPA for a raw book is not really the point.

 

The point is that the buyer can pay what they want to pay and the seller can ask what they want to ask. That's the way it works.

 

And who am I to tell someone not to pay full (or near GPA) for a raw book?

 

This corner of the market that hangs out on the CGC chat forum is so datacentric parsimonious.

 

We won't pay over GPA.

We won't pay for loosely graded books.

We won't pay GPA prices for raw books.

 

Much of the world doesn't scrutinize a sale or think like that. They see a book they like, they look in their pocket to see if they can afford it and the buy it. End of story.

 

These sort of discussions fail to realize that there are a zillion different types of markets out there, and the market in your neck of the woods might be entirely different than the market in mine.

 

 

 

 

edited to bring up to 100% accuracy.

[VintageComics]

Yes, that would be the restoration portion.

 

So while Roy is happy to give the buyer the raw books priced at GPA less grading and discount I'm assuming that the book comes with a unlimited restoration free refund period since that buyer may sell the book to someone else who gets it graded.

 

 

Sure, as long as the book is in the same condition as when it was sold.

[VintageComics]

One last point I'd like to make on the topic - are any of you aware that some dealers use Overstreet to price slabs? It goes more than just one way. Different strokes, what I collect rocks and all that.

 

Anyway, just trying to get people thinking.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

CGC isn't magic, though much of the slabbed market thinks they are. A comic book that has been slabbed isn't any different from a comic book that hasn't been slabbed. It's simply looked at by people who usually know what they're doing.

 

CGC graders and restoration detectors aren't any better, or any worse, than any of a number of people who have like experience and ability.

 

Unfortunately, a lot of the slabbed market treats slabbing as some sort of mystical process, and out comes this product which is neither comic book, nor label, but some magical combination, where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

 

This is why you have a 9.8 that sells for $800...or $8,000....or $80,000....and a 9.6...which has perhaps a single CB spine tic more than the 9.8, and occasionally has no difference at all...sells for half that.

 

(Actually, that's all backwards...it USED to be a small premium for exceptional examples over the "baseline" nice copy. Now, instead of starting at the baseline and going up, the market now starts at the top (9.8) and goes down.)

 

So, if someone knows what they're looking at....and another someone agrees with them...why should any seller "leave money on the table" by not asking what the market is paying for those copies in those grades?

 

The answer, of course, is what I said above: the market that buys slabs wants the guarantee of the mystical creation that is a slabbed comic book. This is why you see so many slab collectors and buyers recoil at the thought of actually breaking a book out of the slab. That slab is worth far, far more than it costs to replace.

 

So, for the most part, sellers need to get the "stamp of approval" by CGC, creating a new product, before they can ask "the right prices."

 

It's quite silly, really, but there you have it. Nearly 30 years for coins, and that hasn't changed. The difference between individual grades is minimal, but the difference in price can be phenomenal. I don't see the comics market doing anything different.

 

But it does highlight quite well the need for the intermediary grades of 9.7, 9.5, 9.3, and 9.1.

[VintageComics]

But it does highlight quite well the need for the intermediary grades of 9.7, 9.5, 9.3, and 9.1.

 

It's going to happen out of necessity. As prices increase the price spread becomes too large and in-between grades are broken down to finer denominations like when Overstreet split from 1 - 3 - 5 to the 25 point scale we currently have.

[RockMyAmadeus]

And, as I said before....what happens to all the buyers of slabs that say one thing on the label, but that doesn't match the actual condition of the book inside the slab....? That is, someone buys a 9.8 that is clearly a gift grade, or has been damaged in the case?

 

Aren't *those* people getting the shaft much more often than the people buying "raw" books for GPA prices....?

 

Something to consider, eh?

[HarveySwick]

RMA, if you were to buy a slabbed copy of a book you love, what would you recommend? 9.6? 9.4? I'm asking as I am admittedly one of those "9.8 or bust" and would like to get a different perspective from a very knowledgeable, experienced collector such as yourself.

 

I'm curious what you would personally choose if there were three graded copies, 9.8, 9.6 and 9.4, that were all very similar looks wise aside from a spine tic or two.

[seanfingh]

RMA, if you were to buy a slabbed copy of a book you love, what would you recommend? 9.6? 9.4? I'm asking as I am admittedly one of those "9.8 or bust" and would like to get a different perspective from a very knowledgeable, experienced collector such as yourself.

 

I'm curious what you would personally choose if there were three graded copies, 9.8, 9.6 and 9.4, that were all very similar looks wise aside from a spine tic or two.

 

What do you mean, 9.8 or bust? You have 8.5 slabs in your sigline animation.

 

Your question is loaded because the answer is different based upon the age of the book.

[RockMyAmadeus]

But it does highlight quite well the need for the intermediary grades of 9.7, 9.5, 9.3, and 9.1.

 

It's going to happen out of necessity. As prices increase the price spread becomes too large and in-between grades are broken down to finer denominations like when Overstreet split from 1 - 3 - 5 to the 25 point scale we currently have.

 

It's been necessary for quite some time now. The difference in prices in the 9-range is silly for many books. People will be perfectly happy to pay a 9.7 price for a 9.7 book, rather than being annoyed that they got a gift-graded 9.8, or thrilled that they got an undergraded 9.6 (or even vice versa, depending on their perspective!)

 

I don't know why CGC and Voldie resist, but I had a conversation with SB on these very boards, maybe a year ago, where he says (paraphrased) "I've had books that I really wanted to call a 9.7, but it wasn't available to me."

 

My response was "And......? Why didn't you make it available? What is stopping anyone?" There was the answer, right there in front of him, but it's still resisted.

 

"Oh, then it won't line up with the established nomenclature."

 

We haven't had "established nomenclature" since 2003, when the named grades were abandoned because people "didn't like" seeing "such and such - (minus) on their labels....it gave a negative impression."

 

While I can understand that from a marketing standpoint, from a rational standpoint, it's ridiculous...but it happened, and now we've got a new generation of collectors who would never be able to tell you that 5.0 stands for VG/F, and 7.5 stands for VF-. They just know the numbers.

 

So, the "it won't line up with the nomenclature" argument is out the window. (And really, it's ok to call something, say, choice NM (9.5) or select VF/NM (9.1), or premium NM+ (9.7), or somesuch, if it's really necessary. It won't be.)

[jsilverjanet]

RMA, if you were to buy a slabbed copy of a book you love, what would you recommend? 9.6? 9.4? I'm asking as I am admittedly one of those "9.8 or bust" and would like to get a different perspective from a very knowledgeable, experienced collector such as yourself.

 

I'm curious what you would personally choose if there were three graded copies, 9.8, 9.6 and 9.4, that were all very similar looks wise aside from a spine tic or two.

 

just buy a nice raw copy and you'll never care what the grade is

[wombat]

It would certainly be interesting to see what would happen to values of currently slabbed books if they added in additional grades. Would a 9.8 post be looked at as more valuable that pre knowing that maybe it would grade now as a 9.7?

[wombat]

RMA, if you were to buy a slabbed copy of a book you love, what would you recommend? 9.6? 9.4? I'm asking as I am admittedly one of those "9.8 or bust" and would like to get a different perspective from a very knowledgeable, experienced collector such as yourself.

 

I'm curious what you would personally choose if there were three graded copies, 9.8, 9.6 and 9.4, that were all very similar looks wise aside from a spine tic or two.

 

I would think price has to be a consideration. Without knowing the spread how could one answer that (assuming you are not very wealthy and price means nothing to you).

 

And why are you a 9.8 or bust person? What motivates that?