If Jack Kirby was the king of comics, was Alex Schomburg the king of covers in the GA? 2 2

[sfcityduck]

Wow, this thread is back from the dead!  I didn't even know I'd posted on it until I'd been re-reading for a while.

If we're talking the war years covers, then I have to agree that Schomburg is the king.  He was at his peak for Timely.  And his covers blow S&Ks output of the same time out of the water.  

Prior to WWII, I think Everett has some great covers for Centaur (Sand Hogs is a favorite) and he deserves some consideration, but I admit that was not the high point of his technical expertise.  LB Cole is also, for me, a guy who high his high point after WWII.  

The best technician of the pre-war years was, in my mind, Leo O'Mealia.  It would take Frazetta and Williamson to knock Leo off his perch for king of the realistic technically beautiful covers.  S&K, and even Schomburg were more cartoony in style, and so was Everett back then.  

[Electricmastro]

The only other artist I can think of that I felt could consistently do profound covers is Lee Elias, though those sort of covers really only shined through his horror and war covers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[exitmusicblue]

Also can't forget this one by Elias...

[Electricmastro]

8 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

The best technician of the pre-war years was, in my mind, Leo O'Mealia.  It would take Frazetta and Williamson to knock Leo off his perch for king of the realistic technically beautiful covers.  S&K, and even Schomburg were more cartoony in style, and so was Everett back then.  

Pre-1939, I'd say Creig Flessel had the best examples of realistic art. Broke away from the "cartoony norm" many other comic books were doing at the time, but still vibrant and interesting all the same.

I think that his cover art for Detective Comics #9 also definitely stood out when compared to the other comic books it went on sale with in October 1937. Not even DickTracy seemed as realistic somehow.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Electricmastro

[Cat-Man_America]

My favorite Craig Flessel cover is Detective Comics #18...    

[sfcityduck]

I like Flessel a lot, but he's no O'Mealia.  I'll take Adventure 41 over Adventure 27 any day:

 

And O'Mealia's Action covers are all classics:

Plus, his Detective covers are not at all shabby:

 

 

[Electricmastro]

Another pre-1939 cover artist I want to highlight is Joe Musial. He definitely captured the spirit of E. C. Segar’s Popeye art, which at its best was action-packed, humorous, endearing, and just all-around hectic:

 

[N e r V]

22 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

Wow, this thread is back from the dead!  I didn't even know I'd posted on it until I'd been re-reading for a while.

If we're talking the war years covers, then I have to agree that Schomburg is the king.  He was at his peak for Timely.  And his covers blow S&Ks output of the same time out of the water.  

Prior to WWII, I think Everett has some great covers for Centaur (Sand Hogs is a favorite) and he deserves some consideration, but I admit that was not the high point of his technical expertise.  LB Cole is also, for me, a guy who high his high point after WWII.  

The best technician of the pre-war years was, in my mind, Leo O'Mealia.  It would take Frazetta and Williamson to knock Leo off his perch for king of the realistic technically beautiful covers.  S&K, and even Schomburg were more cartoony in style, and so was Everett back then.  

 

On 1/28/2020 at 6:28 PM, Electricmastro said:

I really do think that L. B. Cole’s usual approach of having the color black be as prominent as primary colors made for the most effective covers. They just tend to be so colorfully dark, that they can give off multiple emotions.

 

Someone has been busy lately reviving the dead (threads)....

At least it’s  not any old sales threads (so far)...

Edited January 30, 2020 by N e r V

[Straw-Man]

On 1/30/2020 at 3:20 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

My favorite Craig Flessel cover is Detective Comics #18...    

me, too!  never get enuff of you posting this'un, cat.

[Cat-Man_America]

22 hours ago, Electricmastro said:

Another pre-1939 cover artist I want to highlight is Joe Musial. He definitely captured the spirit of E. C. Segar’s Popeye art, which at its best was action-packed, humorous, endearing, and just all-around hectic:

 

  Point taken, Popeye is a tough contender for KING (pun intended), 

but as a prolific illustrator of action, SCHOMBURG's covers are the crown jewels... 

\

...and this is just warmin' up!  

[William-James88]

On 9/6/2015 at 5:05 PM, 50YrsCollctngCmcs said:

From a quality standpoint, the cover work of Lou Fine and Mac Raboy strike me as much better. Schomburg's work has an in your face over the top appeal sure to grab attention and dimes!

I am myself reorienting all my funds towards Mac Raboy at the moment. I like Schomburg a lot, but it feels too obvious to me. In your face is a good way to put it. Still great, but not my favourite.

[bronze johnny]

Schomburg did wonderful covers and the beauties on display here demonstrate that but comparing his work to Kirby's isn't the way I'd approach this because it comes down to preference. Moreover, Kirby was much more than a cover artist. Also keep in mind that the corpus of Jack's work covers the 3 great ages of the history of the American Comic Book. And Jack contributed to this history on so many different levels, which is why he's the greatest comic book artist of the 20th Century. Artists like Raboy and Fine were better than Schomburg and that doesn't mean Alex wasn't a legend nevertheless. Imagine if Raboy had done Superman? He'd have the most memorable name for a Golden Age artist. Ultimately comes down to one's preference when comparing one artist's work to another- "Man is the measure of all things when it comes to art and beauty."

Edited February 1, 2020 by bronze johnny

[Electricmastro]

1 hour ago, bronze johnny said:

Schomburg did wonderful covers and the beauties on display here demonstrate that but comparing his work to Kirby's isn't the way I'd approach this because it comes down to preference. Moreover, Kirby was much more than a cover artist. Also keep in mind that the corpus of Jack's work covers the 3 great ages of the history of the American Comic Book. And Jack contributed to this history on so many different levels, which is why he's the greatest comic book artist of the 20th Century. Artists like Raboy and Fine were better than Schomburg and that doesn't mean Alex wasn't a legend nevertheless. Imagine if Raboy had done Superman? He'd have the most memorable name for a Golden Age artist. Ultimately comes down to one's preference when comparing one artist's work to another- "Man is the measure of all things when it comes to art and beauty."

I see Kirby’s historical importance to comics and “king titles” based more on innovation and world building than purely on art quality. I can definitely see people making reasonable arguments on why Schomburg and others’ approaches on drawing can come across more effectively, but that’s definitely not to take away from Kirby’s innovative contributions.

[bronze johnny]

1 hour ago, Electricmastro said:

I see Kirby’s historical importance to comics and “king titles” based more on innovation and world building than purely on art quality. I can definitely see people making reasonable arguments on why Schomburg and others’ approaches on drawing can come across more effectively, but that’s definitely not to take away from Kirby’s innovative contributions.

Comes back to my point about Kirby being more than just a cover artist. 

Much of Schomburg's success is attributed to his output during the Golden Age. That's not a knock on Schomburg's GA work. His style is classic for the era but there are superior artists especially those I mentioned. Raboy never had Schomburg's titles and Mac would never have been able to keep up with deadlines given his "time taking" approach. Another difference between Schomburg and Raboy has more to do with Alex getting the prime titles at Timely while Mac was assigned the lesser Fawcett books. That said, it will ultimately come down to one's preference.

Btw, those are beautiful books you have in your collection!

Edited February 1, 2020 by bronze johnny

[Cat-Man_America]

13 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

Comes back to my point about Kirby being more than just a cover artist. 

Much of Schomburg's success is attributed to his output during the Golden Age. That's not a knock on Schomburg's GA work. His style is classic for the era but there are superior artists especially those I mentioned. Raboy never had Schomburg's titles and Mac would never have been able to keep up with deadlines given his "time taking" approach. Another difference between Schomburg and Raboy has more to do with Alex getting the prime titles at Timely while Mac was assigned the lesser Fawcett books. That said, it will ultimately come down to one's preference.

Btw, those are beautiful books you have in your collection!

Thanks, and you're absolutely right about Kirby's contributions overall.  I'm not trying to match artists' styles or deadline speed against each other although a case could be made that Alex Schomburg's cover work was as proficient as Kirby or Raboy, both of whom were outstanding illustrators.  Stan Lee quote:  "Alex Schomburg was to comic books what Norman Rockwell was to The Saturday Evening Post...When it came to illustrating covers, there simply was no one else in Alex's league."

After leaving comics, Alex went on to a successful career as an illustrator in the science fiction field with many outstanding cover paintings to his credit (nominated for a Hugo Award as best professional SF artist at Worldcon in 1962).  His style and quality of execution was in high demand throughout his career.  Here's an example of a mid-50's SF cover:

FTR, I'm a fan of Kirby's & Raboy's skills.  A collector can't go wrong appreciating either's covers or interior art.  

 

 

[bronze johnny]

55 minutes ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Thanks, and you're absolutely right about Kirby's contributions overall.  I'm not trying to match artists' styles or deadline speed against each other although a case could be made that Alex Schomburg's cover work was as proficient as Kirby or Raboy, both of whom were outstanding illustrators.  Stan Lee quote:  "Alex Schomburg was to comic books what Norman Rockwell was to The Saturday Evening Post...When it came to illustrating covers, there simply was no one else in Alex's league."

After leaving comics, Alex went on to a successful career as an illustrator in the science fiction field with many outstanding cover paintings to his credit (nominated for a Hugo Award as best professional SF artist at Worldcon in 1962).  His style and quality of execution was in high demand throughout his career.  Here's an example of a mid-50's SF cover:

FTR, I'm a fan of Kirby's & Raboy's skills.  A collector can't go wrong appreciating either's covers or interior art.  

 

 

One thing I forgot to mention regarding the comparison between Jack and Schomburg that placed Kirby at a disadvantage when it came to the opportunity to draw covers - something Schomburg had and Timely would ensure that he did. Jack missed the last 2 and a half years of the Golden Age (1938-1945) when he went to war in June of 1943.

Agree with you that Schomburg was the Norman Rockwell of the medium but Jack was the William Blake of comic books. When comparing anyone to Jack, we should compare them to the "whole Kirby." As time moves on, and the period of the 20th Century History of the American Comic Book will be referred to as the art form's Great Age, one artist will stand above the rest because of his role in the comic book's greatest period of creativity, which happens to be the most significant for Timely-Atlas-Marvel: The early Marvel Silver Age (1961 - 1964). That artist is Kirby. Schomburg is forever Timely's cover artist and whether an artist's cover art is "better" than another's will always come down to one's preferences. Creativity on other hand- the creative genius of an artist is another story. Jack (with Joe's help) created Captain America. Imagine Timely without Captain America during the Golden Age?  Jack will always be the artist-creator who had one of the key roles in creating the great ages of the American Comic Book and why Stan correctly called him, "King Kirby," the Greatest among the greats that included Schomburg.

Can we compare Rockwell to Blake?

Edited February 2, 2020 by bronze johnny

[Prince Namor]

For me personally... no covers sum up the Golden Age Superhero era better than those Schomburg covers. The artwork could vary at times inside the book, but the FEELING those covers bring about...

I wasn't around for the Golden Age, but I remember how I felt when I went into the local drug store in the 70's and saw the new comic books - those colorful covers... and Schomburg's work reminds me of what I felt like seeing those comic book covers... the excitement, the color, the dynamic posing, the action...

[Cat-Man_America]

12 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

One thing I forgot to mention regarding the comparison between Jack and Schomburg that placed Kirby at a disadvantage when it came to the opportunity to draw covers - something Schomburg had and Timely would ensure that he did. Jack missed the last 2 and a half years of the Golden Age (1938-1945) when he went to war in June of 1943.

Agree with you that Schomburg was the Norman Rockwell of the medium but Jack was the William Blake of comic books. When comparing anyone to Jack, we should compare them to the "whole Kirby." As time moves on, and the period of the 20th Century History of the American Comic Book will be referred to as the art form's Great Age, one artist will stand above the rest because of his role in the comic book's greatest period of creativity, which happens to be the most significant for Timely-Atlas-Marvel: The early Marvel Silver Age (1961 - 1964). That artist is Kirby. Schomburg is forever Timely's cover artist and whether an artist's cover art is "better" than another's will always come down to one's preferences. Creativity on other hand- the creative genius of an artist is another story. Jack (with Joe's help) created Captain America. Imagine Timely without Captain America during the Golden Age?  Jack will always be the artist-creator who had one of the key roles in creating the great ages of the American Comic Book and why Stan correctly called him, "King Kirby," the Greatest among the greats that included Schomburg.

Can we compare Rockwell to Blake?

It’s certainly possible to draw those comparisons.  While I concur with Stan Lee’s observation on Alex Schomburg’s work, I perceive Jack Kirby’s output a bit differently.  Now if you’d said William Blake channeled through Salvador Dali, we might be close to something!  

Without taking anything away from Jack’s contributions to the genre ...which are voluminous and incontrovertible... it’s fair to say his pole position in the pantheon of GA greats is primarily founded on 1. meeting grueling deadlines for cover & interior work (dare I say in a Timely manner), 2. exceptional rendering of action scenes with fluid movement, and 3. an instantly recognizable style popular with both readers & publishers.  That’s the trifecta.  

Arguably, Jack’s weakest areas were anatomy & attention to detail, but he more than made up for compositional deficiencys with dynamic action that moved effortlessly from panel to panel.  That said, I’ve often wondered if Orson Welles received any royalty payments for the contribution his seminal masterpiece made to inspirating S&K’s panel and cover composition (Citizen Kane premiered May 1, 1941).  When you think about the look of Jack Kirby’s work from around this time, it makes perfect sense.  

Of course, using this logic a lot of artists would've probably owed royalties to Mr. Welles and S&K for borrowing their inspired think-outside-the-box visual compositions which were very influential for several years.   

As a side note, Jack’s teaming with other fine artists like Syd Shores who inked some of his early Cap covers probably deserves mention.  Jack Kirby’s partnership with Joe Simon also played a significant role in his early success.  Simon & Kirby were the tag team who ...combined with Joe’s savvy business acumen... were able to call their own shots at several publishing houses in the GA. In the Silver Age, after their business relationship fell apart, Jack’s return to Martin Goodman's and Stan Lee's bullpen and pairing with Ayers proved a major contribution to Marvel’s growth and popularity.

Sorry about the length of this post.  This is normally where I’d post several examples of prized Jack Kirby GA covers from my collection that I greatly admire, but at the moment I don’t have access to my desk computer to source image scans, so I’ll re-edit at the earliest opportunity (apologies in advance).  Try to consider what I’ve stated above as a critique, not a criticism.  I admire Jack Kirby’s work, not all of it, but certainly the vast majority of it, especially his early work dating from WWII.

In each of the above Jack Kirby covers the intense power of the composition comes through.

Under closer scrutiny anatomical flaws & building design issues clearly stand out, but does it really matter?  

Some of Jack's work may seem sketchy or unfinished, but given the dynamic visuals the cover art demands attention. 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Cat-Man_America
update

[Prince Namor]

I just love this...

[Electricmastro]

17 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

"Alex Schomburg was to comic books what Norman Rockwell was to The Saturday Evening Post...When it came to illustrating covers, there simply was no one else in Alex's league."

 

Interesting. Not that one has to use painted realism to be inspired by Rockwell, but still, Norman Saunders’ work reminded me of Rockwell, which I think is an understandable comparison.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Electricmastro