Amazing Spider-Man 361 Print Run

[Broke as a Joke]

Changing the subject a bit...what was the print run of ASM 361 second printing? 1/3rd of the first printing?

[mysterio]

Changing the subject a bit...what was the print run of ASM 361 second printing? 1/3rd of the first printing?

 

There is actually a thread about this someplace, I'll see if I can find it to link to it. Not very high, as I recall.

 

There may be some discussion on that in this thread.

[Peter G]

My friend,

 

You have not shifted the evidentiary burden to me or anybody.

 

1. The testimony of everybody here on the board you dismiss as irrelevant.

 

2. The Previews magazine you produced supports MY belief that dealers over ordered this book because they knew with the venom cover it would sell.

 

3. Statement of Ownership is weak evidence. I know because I used to work in CIrculations Management and the POst office requires an annual mandatory filing. It's basically meaningless.

 

So please make your case or don't but please don't shift the burden into me or the boards for your failing to prove YOUR case

 

Best,

 

Peter G

 

But what about the order info from Diamond and Cap City? That has no bearing on your statement #2 above? You know, about dealers ordering the book?

 

Am I being double teamed now ? Ha ha

 

Order rankings are a relative game

 

Nobody is saying this book was ordered like mc spidey # 1

 

Merely, that asm 361 was ordered above and beyond regular circulation numbers for the publication

[Gatsby77]

Because like many have already stated in here, they bought alot of copies and held them. Thus, even if unintentionally, they became hoarders. Everyone in that period was buying multiple issues. It wasn't because they had the motivation to sell right away. No, the mentality at the time was buy 10 copies now and put your kids through college later. This was much of what led to the big crash.

 

To act like there was not hoarding going on with ASM 361 or any book back in that time period is naïve. Especially a book with that large of a print run. But maybe being a teenager during that time period would not allow oneself to make the proper judgment.

 

 

This.

 

I still have my original owner copies of ASM 361, Man of Steel 18, X-Men 266, New Mutants 98, etc. Unslabbed, no desire to cash in & sell, even 20+ years later.

 

If a book skyrocketed in the first 60 days, we thought "cool -- I'll be rich in 20 years" not "let me sell out now at its peak."

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

My friend,

 

You have not shifted the evidentiary burden to me or anybody.

 

1. The testimony of everybody here on the board you dismiss as irrelevant.

 

There seems to be a conclusion missing from that statement.

 

However, point of correction: I don't dismiss anyone's "testimony" (though "testimony" is a bit strong to use on an internet message board) as "irrelevant." Quite the contrary, anecdotal evidence...when it is not directly contradicted by direct evidence...can be very useful.

 

As well, the credibility of the writer is taken into account, too. Is the writer someone who is known to be meticulous and detailed? Or, do they spout off misinformation at the drop of a hat?

 

If, say, comix4fun shares an anecdote, or Ditch Fahrenheit, or Mr. Bedrock, I am far, far, FAR more inclined to take what they say at face value...again, provided it isn't contradicted by the evidence...than Joe Blow who frequently gets details, significant or not, wrong.

 

But anecdote is always subservient to evidence, and must conform or be discarded. If the evidence contradicts the anecdote...the anecdote is wrong, always. If I say "I remember that in 1987, Keanu Reeves won the Academy Award for Best Actor", and the evidence says otherwise, my anecdote has no value and must be discarded.

 

2. The Previews magazine you produced supports MY belief that dealers over ordered this book because they knew with the venom cover it would sell.

 

ASM #361 doesn't have a Venom cover. Details.

 

And again...no one "over ordered" this book, or the Cap City order numbers wouldn't be what they were, and there wouldn't have been an immediate second printing.

 

Sorry, but those are just the facts.

 

3. Statement of Ownership is weak evidence. I know because I used to work in CIrculations Management and the POst office requires an annual mandatory filing. It's basically meaningless.

 

So, we've gone from "no evidence" to "weak evidence"...that's progress, I guess.

 

 

"It's basically meaningless" in what way? Are the numbers falsified? If they aren't falsified, don't they provide at least a working average, which is useful in making broad estimations?

 

So please make your case or don't but please don't shift the burden into me or the boards for your failing to prove YOUR case

 

 

Your claim: "I distinctly remember that there was a lot of promotion on this particular issue. "

 

But the Previews issue for ASM #361 only shows a partial cover, which it does for many other books, and moreso with some (full covers), while the issue is not a spotlight, nor is it a gem of the month, nor is it in any way highlighted as something special, other than that partial B&W cover.

 

Meanwhile, there are other books...like Cage #1 and MCP #100...which have full page ads dedicated to them, indicating that those books were the ones which Marvel believed was worth showcasing.

 

So....where is the promotion you claim there was a lot of on this particular issue?

 

Again...the burden of proof is on the one making the claim, not the one challenging the claim. You made the claim, the burden of proving said claim is on you.

 

That's just the way it works.

 

You also made this claim: "Our store ordered massive massive amounts of asm 361", but you admit that you have no way of proving that claim, and won't even provide an estimation. Again, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

 

As well, you went from "I distinctly remember that there was a lot of promotion on this particular issue" to "The book didn't need to be deemed "special" to know that it would sell."

 

That is a contradiction. Either the book had a lot of promotion (which certainly isn't true at Diamond...maybe it was true at Cap City?) and thus heavily ordered, or it didn't need the promotion, and was heavily ordered anyway.

 

Which is it?

[mysterio]

My friend,

 

You have not shifted the evidentiary burden to me or anybody.

 

1. The testimony of everybody here on the board you dismiss as irrelevant.

 

2. The Previews magazine you produced supports MY belief that dealers over ordered this book because they knew with the venom cover it would sell.

 

3. Statement of Ownership is weak evidence. I know because I used to work in CIrculations Management and the POst office requires an annual mandatory filing. It's basically meaningless.

 

So please make your case or don't but please don't shift the burden into me or the boards for your failing to prove YOUR case

 

Best,

 

Peter G

 

But what about the order info from Diamond and Cap City? That has no bearing on your statement #2 above? You know, about dealers ordering the book?

 

Am I being double teamed now ? Ha ha

 

Order rankings are a relative game

 

Nobody is saying this book was ordered like mc spidey # 1

 

Merely, that asm 361 was ordered above and beyond regular circulation numbers for the publication

 

The numbers RMA supplied from Cap City aren't rankings, unless a whole lot of titles more popular than ASM were on the stands then. These numbers don't support your statement.

 

The print run wasn't that large, comparatively.

 

Numbers for Cap City:

 

#359 - 60,600

#360 - 57,300

#361 - 68,700

#362 - 76,800

#363 - 102,600

#364 - 72,000

#365 - 221,700

 

[the blob]

So, how many copies did you buy specifically to trade/sell when the book came out?

 

----

 

When I got back into collecting in 1992/1993 after having been out of it since 1985/86, I was only interested in vintage stuff and cheap-o box books other than a few moderns I bought off the rack to read each month. I thought the lunacy on the new books then was just that and was not buying multiples of anything unless it was wayyy under cover price, which, of course, at that point was the wrong time to buy it! So, I'm not the right guy to talk to about my personal purchases. I do know, for example, I got the jump on the clone books, for example, and snagged a bunch of the relevant 70s books cheap before they were on the radaar and, of course, they went into their boxes and did not get sold because where the heck would i sell them? I just spent a lot of time hanging out at my local shop when I got back into collecting until they closed in 2000 and worked there part-time (just on friday afternoons) in law school, so yes, anecdotal observations, hearsay from him, etc. But I saw how he handled people trying to sell him books and he basically knew he could get away with it because nobody in the city was paying jack for anything. Obviously different markets behaved differently. It sounds like some of the California shops were not such thieves when it came to buying stuff.

 

heck, my shop wouldn't pay jack for my books (not that i ever tried to sell) and i am his daughter's godfather!

[mysterio]

Because like many have already stated in here, they bought alot of copies and held them. Thus, even if unintentionally, they became hoarders. Everyone in that period was buying multiple issues. It wasn't because they had the motivation to sell right away. No, the mentality at the time was buy 10 copies now and put your kids through college later. This was much of what led to the big crash.

 

To act like there was not hoarding going on with ASM 361 or any book back in that time period is naïve. Especially a book with that large of a print run. But maybe being a teenager during that time period would not allow oneself to make the proper judgment.

 

 

This.

 

I still have my original owner copies of ASM 361, Man of Steel 18, X-Men 266, New Mutants 98, etc. Unslabbed, no desire to cash in & sell, even 20+ years later.

 

If a book skyrocketed in the first 60 days, we thought "cool -- I'll be rich in 20 years" not "let me sell out now at its peak."

 

Collectors with single copies for their run is different from people buying multiples for resale. Different approach entirely.

[the blob]

correction, my recollection is that i did buy three copies each of Spiderman 2099 1, Punisher 2099 1, and X-Men 2099 1. Brilliant investments there. That was pretty much the end of my early 90s hoarding/speculating.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Because like many have already stated in here, they bought alot of copies and held them. Thus, even if unintentionally, they became hoarders. Everyone in that period was buying multiple issues. It wasn't because they had the motivation to sell right away. No, the mentality at the time was buy 10 copies now and put your kids through college later. This was much of what led to the big crash.

 

To act like there was not hoarding going on with ASM 361 or any book back in that time period is naïve. Especially a book with that large of a print run. But maybe being a teenager during that time period would not allow oneself to make the proper judgment.

 

 

This.

 

I still have my original owner copies of ASM 361, Man of Steel 18, X-Men 266, New Mutants 98, etc. Unslabbed, no desire to cash in & sell, even 20+ years later.

 

If a book skyrocketed in the first 60 days, we thought "cool -- I'll be rich in 20 years" not "let me sell out now at its peak."

 

Man of Steel #18, X-Men #266, New Mutants #98 weren't instantly hot books, like ASM #361.

 

And if you don't desire to sell them, and have never desired to sell them, you are precisely that type of collector who buys multiples because they like multiples...the exception to the rule.

 

PS. Are you going to acknowledge your mistake about the price of #361, or ignore it and hope no one remembers? Or is it just me that is accused of "never admitting when he's wrong"...?

 

[mysterio]

correction, my recollection is that i did buy three copies each of Spiderman 2099 1, Punisher 2099 1, and X-Men 2099 1. Brilliant investments there. That was pretty much the end of my early 90s hoarding/speculating.

 

They had shiny foil covers that nobody could resist, how could anyone go wrong buying multiples? At least the Spidey 2099 #1 is starting to sell at shows again.

[Peter G]

My friend,

 

You have not shifted the evidentiary burden to me or anybody.

 

1. The testimony of everybody here on the board you dismiss as irrelevant.

 

There seems to be a conclusion missing from that statement.

 

However, point of correction: I don't dismiss anyone's "testimony" (though "testimony" is a bit strong to use on an internet message board) as "irrelevant." Quite the contrary, anecdotal evidence...when it is not directly contradicted by direct evidence...can be very useful.

 

As well, the credibility of the writer is taken into account, too. Is the writer someone who is known to be meticulous and detailed? Or, do they spout off misinformation at the drop of a hat?

 

If, say, comix4fun shares an anecdote, or Ditch Fahrenheit, or Mr. Bedrock, I am far, far, FAR more inclined to take what they say at face value...again, provided it isn't contradicted by the evidence...than Joe Blow who frequently gets details, significant or not, wrong.

 

But anecdote is always subservient to evidence, and must conform or be discarded. If the evidence contradicts the anecdote...the anecdote is wrong, always. If I say "I remember that in 1987, Keanu Reeves won the Academy Award for Best Actor", and the evidence says otherwise, my anecdote has no value and must be discarded.

 

2. The Previews magazine you produced supports MY belief that dealers over ordered this book because they knew with the venom cover it would sell.

 

ASM #361 doesn't have a Venom cover. Details.

 

And again...no one "over ordered" this book, or the Cap City order numbers wouldn't be what they were, and there wouldn't have been an immediate second printing.

 

Sorry, but those are just the facts.

 

3. Statement of Ownership is weak evidence. I know because I used to work in CIrculations Management and the POst office requires an annual mandatory filing. It's basically meaningless.

 

So, we've gone from "no evidence" to "weak evidence"...that's progress, I guess.

 

 

"It's basically meaningless" in what way? Are the numbers falsified? If they aren't falsified, don't they provide at least a working average, which is useful in making broad estimations?

 

So please make your case or don't but please don't shift the burden into me or the boards for your failing to prove YOUR case

 

 

Your claim: "I distinctly remember that there was a lot of promotion on this particular issue. "

 

But the Previews issue for ASM #361 only shows a partial cover, which it does for many other books, and moreso with some (full covers), while the issue is not a spotlight, nor is it a gem of the month, nor is it in any way highlighted as something special, other than that partial B&W cover.

 

Meanwhile, there are other books...like Cage #1 and MCP #100...which have full page ads dedicated to them, indicating that those books were the ones which Marvel believed was worth showcasing.

 

So....where is the promotion you claim there was a lot of on this particular issue?

 

Again...the burden of proof is on the one making the claim, not the one challenging the claim. You made the claim, the burden of proving said claim is on you.

 

That's just the way it works.

 

You also made this claim: "Our store ordered massive massive amounts of asm 361", but you admit that you have no way of proving that claim, and won't even provide an estimation. Again, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

 

As well, you went from "I distinctly remember that there was a lot of promotion on this particular issue" to "The book didn't need to be deemed "special" to know that it would sell."

 

That is a contradiction. Either the book had a lot of promotion (which certainly isn't true at Diamond...maybe it was true at Cap City?) and thus heavily ordered, or it didn't need the promotion, and was heavily ordered anyway.

 

Which is it?

 

My friend,

 

Putting aside for a second your over estimation of your own critical thinking skills, irrelevant opinions on other the credibility of other board members and my place in such a valueless hierarchy,and your rambling and convoluted thought process for a second.

 

What mythical evidence are you exactly looking for me or anybody to exactly supply you with ?

 

Peter G

[the blob]

RMA, I think you are underestimating the number of people, even in 1992, who were buying from their shops and saying "yeah, gimme 10 of those, 5 of those..." and perhaps even "50 of those" and shops saying "I'll order an extra 150 copies because I will always be able to sell them for a buck and maybe they'll be $5 books." ASM being a fairly popular title, it's not like a hot book would be exactly "out of nowhere." And I think you are underestimating the number of people who either got stuck with their hoards of moderns because there was nowhere to sell them locally for more than 3 cents each or who viewed these as long-term investments, or at least something that held their value. In 1992-1993 I viewed comics generally as such because the vintage stuff seemed to be selling for more than it had been selling for when i got out of comics, particularly because I wasn't collecting during the various crashes of the late 80s, the B&W bust, etc., so I had not been as savy to it, and neither had the card collectors who were shifting over to comics around then. Let's face it, around then a lot of people were getting into comics or re-getting into comics who may not have appreciated that ASM 361 might not stay a $25 book. I looked at some of the Valiant stuff as likely crash victims when I got back in, but some of those were so expensive it made no sense to me.

[mysterio]

My friend,

 

You have not shifted the evidentiary burden to me or anybody.

 

1. The testimony of everybody here on the board you dismiss as irrelevant.

 

There seems to be a conclusion missing from that statement.

 

However, point of correction: I don't dismiss anyone's "testimony" (though "testimony" is a bit strong to use on an internet message board) as "irrelevant." Quite the contrary, anecdotal evidence...when it is not directly contradicted by direct evidence...can be very useful.

 

As well, the credibility of the writer is taken into account, too. Is the writer someone who is known to be meticulous and detailed? Or, do they spout off misinformation at the drop of a hat?

 

If, say, comix4fun shares an anecdote, or Ditch Fahrenheit, or Mr. Bedrock, I am far, far, FAR more inclined to take what they say at face value...again, provided it isn't contradicted by the evidence...than Joe Blow who frequently gets details, significant or not, wrong.

 

But anecdote is always subservient to evidence, and must conform or be discarded. If the evidence contradicts the anecdote...the anecdote is wrong, always. If I say "I remember that in 1987, Keanu Reeves won the Academy Award for Best Actor", and the evidence says otherwise, my anecdote has no value and must be discarded.

 

2. The Previews magazine you produced supports MY belief that dealers over ordered this book because they knew with the venom cover it would sell.

 

ASM #361 doesn't have a Venom cover. Details.

 

And again...no one "over ordered" this book, or the Cap City order numbers wouldn't be what they were, and there wouldn't have been an immediate second printing.

 

Sorry, but those are just the facts.

 

3. Statement of Ownership is weak evidence. I know because I used to work in CIrculations Management and the POst office requires an annual mandatory filing. It's basically meaningless.

 

So, we've gone from "no evidence" to "weak evidence"...that's progress, I guess.

 

 

"It's basically meaningless" in what way? Are the numbers falsified? If they aren't falsified, don't they provide at least a working average, which is useful in making broad estimations?

 

So please make your case or don't but please don't shift the burden into me or the boards for your failing to prove YOUR case

 

 

Your claim: "I distinctly remember that there was a lot of promotion on this particular issue. "

 

But the Previews issue for ASM #361 only shows a partial cover, which it does for many other books, and moreso with some (full covers), while the issue is not a spotlight, nor is it a gem of the month, nor is it in any way highlighted as something special, other than that partial B&W cover.

 

Meanwhile, there are other books...like Cage #1 and MCP #100...which have full page ads dedicated to them, indicating that those books were the ones which Marvel believed was worth showcasing.

 

So....where is the promotion you claim there was a lot of on this particular issue?

 

Again...the burden of proof is on the one making the claim, not the one challenging the claim. You made the claim, the burden of proving said claim is on you.

 

That's just the way it works.

 

You also made this claim: "Our store ordered massive massive amounts of asm 361", but you admit that you have no way of proving that claim, and won't even provide an estimation. Again, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

 

As well, you went from "I distinctly remember that there was a lot of promotion on this particular issue" to "The book didn't need to be deemed "special" to know that it would sell."

 

That is a contradiction. Either the book had a lot of promotion (which certainly isn't true at Diamond...maybe it was true at Cap City?) and thus heavily ordered, or it didn't need the promotion, and was heavily ordered anyway.

 

Which is it?

 

My friend,

 

Putting aside for a second your over estimation of your own critical thinking skills, irrelevant opinions on other the credibility of other board members and my place in such a valueless hierarchy,and your rambling and convoluted thought process for a second.

 

What mythical evidence are you exactly looking for me or anybody to exactly supply you with ?

 

Peter G

 

Speaking for myself, I'd like to see you reconcile this:

 

 

Nobody is saying this book was ordered like mc spidey # 1

 

Merely, that asm 361 was ordered above and beyond regular circulation numbers for the publication

 

With this:

 

The print run wasn't that large, comparatively.

 

Numbers for Cap City:

 

#359 - 60,600

#360 - 57,300

#361 - 68,700

#362 - 76,800

#363 - 102,600

#364 - 72,000

#365 - 221,700

 

 

That would be a start for the evidence. If the numbers support the idea that #361 wasn't heavily ordered relative to the adjacent issues, then that might not support your recollection of events. Thus, I find it a bit fascinating that you continue to reiterate your memory while railing at RMA for providing the evidence that points out the flaw in said memory.

[revat]

I think ideally we'd get publication/circulation numbers for that issue from all the major distributors for that era, preferably from employees or published sources. Or we could get the #'s directly from Marvel themselves.

 

Barring that, I think RMA is looking for any promotional ads that would lead people to 'hoard' the copy or 'order more' ahead of time than any other ASM of that era. There were plenty of ads and promos for MANY, MANY comics from that era, leading to waaaayyyy over ordering of many books, and leftovers of 50-100 books in long boxes all over the world. Some people don't think this happened with ASM 361 in the same way that it happened with some other issues.

 

 

[showcase22gr1959]

I knew a dealer who bought 1200 361's. They were selling it for $8 a week after. Once I saw how hot the book was, I went to all the newsstands to find 361's at $1.25. I knew of many collector's who bought at least 5,10+ copies.

[showcase22gr1959]

I at one time bought 100 X-men 266 at $2 each, and 800 Marvel Secret Wars 8 at $2.00 ea. (yes, two cases worth almost). My gamble on Marvel Secret Wars 8 paid off...when Wizard mentioned the Alien Symbiot. Of course this ignited the demand for this book. Too bad I sold most of the 266 at $5-15 and all the secret wars around $5-$15 in the early 1990's.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Because like many have already stated in here, they bought alot of copies and held them. Thus, even if unintentionally, they became hoarders. Everyone in that period was buying multiple issues. It wasn't because they had the motivation to sell right away. No, the mentality at the time was buy 10 copies now and put your kids through college later. This was much of what led to the big crash.

 

I do not disagree with you fundamentally. You are correct; many people bought multiples to "tuck away" with the express purpose of "saving them for when they become valuable." But, for books like ASM #361, that "became valuable" happened quite quickly.

 

What prompted this whole discussion was you taking issue with the idea that a book like ASM #361 rising rapidly in value meant that there was wide distribution.

 

But you're ignoring some fundamental human behavior in doing so.

 

When a new book becomes immediately valuable....like Spiderman #252, Thor #337, Superman #50, #75, and ASM #361...there is pressure created by that value to cash out.

 

This is true of anything. If the book had become $1,000 within two months, 99.999975% of all copies would have been sold and distributed. That's basic human nature and economics at work

 

Did some accidentally remain "in a hoard"? Yes, of course. That's also basic human nature. But, the higher and faster that the value of an item rises, the more and more pressure is applied to the one who owns it to cash out (remember, talking MULTIPLE COPY BUYERS, buying for the EXPRESS PURPOSE of selling/trading them), and the likelihood that they will cash out increases.

 

ASM #361 was such a book.

 

So was Batman #428.

 

Superman #75 was the king of all these books. When the book was $50 the following week, and $100 by the end of December, 1992, those with multiples sold them. They didn't sit there and say "nope...that's not expensive enough. I'll wait for a better price."

 

That would be foolishness. No one knows what the future will bring, and for *most* people, such a return was far, far too irresistible...and they sold. After all...immediate returns is always more attractive than unknown potential long term gains.

 

Again, basic economics and human nature.

 

Thus....books like this are distributed far and wide, in a very short time.

 

To act like there was not hoarding going on with ASM 361 or any book back in that time period is naïve.

 

Unless you understand the market dynamics of books like these, that is.

 

Especially a book with that large of a print run.

 

It wasn't that large, relatively speaking. Remember: X-Men #7, out the same month, had Cap City orders more than double that of ASM #361. And ASM #361 was 13th out of 15 in terms of print run for the title that year according to Diamond. There was nothing special about the book in terms of ordering or promotion or anything of the sort, and as a result...demand outstripped supply very quickly.

 

This fact is indisputable, unless one abandons reality: the book went to an immediate second printing. That does not happen unless there was not enough supply to meet the initial demand. That is inescapable, regardless of how "large" the initial print run was.

 

But maybe being a teenager during that time period would not allow oneself to make the proper judgment.

 

Most teenagers aren't capable of making proper judgment. It comes with the territory.

[showcase22gr1959]

correction, my recollection is that i did buy three copies each of Spiderman 2099 1, Punisher 2099 1, and X-Men 2099 1. Brilliant investments there. That was pretty much the end of my early 90s hoarding/speculating.

 

Has value if graded 9.8.

[Peter G]

My friend,

 

 

 

Speaking for myself, I'd like to see you reconcile this:

 

Nobody is saying this book was ordered like mc spidey # 1

 

Merely, that asm 361 was ordered above and beyond regular circulation numbers for the publication

 

With this:

 

The print run wasn't that large, comparatively.

 

Numbers for Cap City:

 

#359 - 60,600

#360 - 57,300

#361 - 68,700

#362 - 76,800

#363 - 102,600

#364 - 72,000

#365 - 221,700

 

 

That would be a start for the evidence. If the numbers support the idea that #361 wasn't heavily ordered relative to the adjacent issues, then that might not support your recollection of events. Thus, I find it a bit fascinating that you continue to reiterate your memory while railing at RMA for providing the evidence that points out the flaw in said memory.

 

Mysterio,

 

I definitely have my own thoughts on the value of those numbers and their evidentiary value. However, the dialogue gets uninteresting when the antics of certain people levy personal attacks and generally behave in a juvenile manner. I quickly become uninterested in the conversation at that point and make a mental note to avoid such a poster in the future.

 

Best Regards,

 

Peter G