Amazing Spider-Man 361 Print Run

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

with that said if every collector was the wheeler and dealer you were my guess is that would have crashed the prices the dealers were willing to pay as they'd be getting offered so much of this stuff what helped keep ASM 361 at $15-$25 or whatever it was for a while was he fact that many copies were sitting in collections and not getting pumped back into collectordom, thus creating some sense of perceived scarcity.

 

No, that's not true of ASM #361 (unless you're referring to single copies sitting in reader/collector hands, rather than multiple copies in speculator hands.)

 

It was certainly true of books like X-Force #1, Spiderman #1, X-Men #1, etc.

 

What you're talking about is contrary to human nature. People, in general, aren't going to sit on something if they stand to make a profit, unless there is some guarantee that they can make more if they hold longer. As you know, there's no such guarantee in the back issue comics market.

 

Yes, there will be holdouts...but not many, and not at such a fast price rise. There is a point at which most people (all...?) will sell, and it didn't take all that much for those with multiple copies to start getting them back into circulation, which is exactly what happened.

 

Think about Harbinger #1...though it followed a different trajectory than ASM #361, and certainly had a much, much smaller print run (though fairly solid for an independent publisher at the time, October of 1991), there was so much demand for the book within a year of its publication, it rose to $100+.

 

Did people speculate on Harbinger #1? Yes, of course they did. Greg Buls did, famously. But so did others. Did it pay off? For this book, and most of Valiant, yes...IF you bought at cover or thereabouts and IF you sold before it all crashed down. By the fall of 1993, it was over, not to be repeated again for over a decade.

 

By the fall of 1993, though, the vast, vast majority of Harbinger #1s had been disseminated far and wide...because $100+ for a $1.95 comic book was far, far too much to resist for anyone who bought multiple copies to "speculate" on. Those with multiple copies would have sold them, and those paying $100+ (and they were the losers in that scenario, generally) weren't going to be buying multiples (that is, "hoarding"), at those prices.

 

I only had two (maybe 3) copies until eBay. I sold one in the fall of 1993, as part of a complete pre-Unity set to a local shop. I didn't get much, like $350 for the whole thing, but I replaced it for a fraction of that, many times over, in the ensuing years.

 

No, the reason ASM #361 went to $15-$25 was NOT because a small handful of people "bought all the copies and sat on them." The reason this book went to $15-$25 is because of simple supply and demand: there wasn't enough supply to meet the existing demand.

 

It's easy to look back and say "well, the issue didn't stay hot forever, and demand (and thus price) didn't stay up forever."

 

That's true...but in those heady days right after the release of this book, one never knew what would ultimately happen. That's why there were people willing to PAY $15-$25 for a copy: they missed out, and now wanted one, and wanted it BEFORE it went up even further in price (remembering that this was during the absolute heyday of books like New Mutants #87, which was the king of the roost...and a $65+ book at that time.)

 

Demand is a funny, funny thing.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Keep in mind: we have access to information and understanding that was completely hidden from our 1990, 1991, 1992 selves. Nobody knew anything about print runs, because the publishers kept this information secret, as did the distributors. If I had known then what I know now, I would never, ever have bought dozens of copies of X-Force #1, X-Men #1, Spiderman #1....all of which I still have. I don't think I've ever sold a single copy of those books (with the exception of signed or bagged copies of Spiderman #1.)

 

And retailers, if they knew, didn't say "hey, I wouldn't buy multiple copies of that book...they printed over a million of them. It's not going to have any value."

 

....even if they were right...and they were, for every comic except Superman #75...they certainly weren't going to discourage sales (though that's precisely what they should have done, and the best retailers actually did.)

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Amazing Spiderman #361, wasn't that book heavily speculated on?

 

No.

 

I'm just messing with you. I give you credit you are very thorough if anything.

 

I know. I just thought a one word response would be cute after the post right above it.

 

 

Gotta be thorough. Devil's in the details.

[the blob]

What you're talking about is contrary to human nature. People, in general, aren't going to sit on something if they stand to make a profit, unless there is some guarantee that they can make more if they hold longer. As you know, there's no such guarantee in the back issue comics market.

--------

 

please stop rma. you might have had the wherewithal to unload your copies, maybe woogie did, but a lot of people bought, saw the price go up, said "cool" and there the books sat in their closets. and that's why you hit these books when you buy an OA collection from this era. were people buying 10 copies more likely to be the wheelers and dealers who figured out a way to unload some while they were hot, sure, but a lot of folks did not view this stuff as hot potatoes that needed to be dumped before they crashed. indeed, at this time prices were going up and up. asm 300 would be a $100 book in not too long, so maybe 361 could be $50+? i saw these collections being bought at my local shop in the late 90s for pennies...tons of these once hot 1991-1993 books that never got unloaded.

 

criminey, i have the frigging internet and it is the 2000s and there are moderns i have bought that went up that are sitting in my boxes and then went down. i have copies of stuff of legends 1 around here somewhere gosh darnit and where are my copies of IZombie 1!!!

[the blob]

Keep in mind: we have access to information and understanding that was completely hidden from our 1990, 1991, 1992 selves. Nobody knew anything about print runs, because the publishers kept this information secret, as did the distributors. If I had known then what I know now, I would never, ever have bought dozens of copies of X-Force #1, X-Men #1, Spiderman #1....all of which I still have. I don't think I've ever sold a single copy of those books (with the exception of signed or bagged copies of Spiderman #1.)

 

And retailers, if they knew, didn't say "hey, I wouldn't buy multiple copies of that book...they printed over a million of them. It's not going to have any value."

 

....even if they were right...and they were, for every comic except Superman #75...they certainly weren't going to discourage sales (though that's precisely what they should have done, and the best retailers actually did.)

 

 

i think savy people understood print-runs to a certain extent (not microanalyzing them like we do here, of course) as excess quantity had just killed the sportscard market and dealers/collectors could see past books that were overprinted that took forever to go up in value or never did (PPSM 1, Nova 1, Moon Knight 1, Star Wars 1, Alpha Flight 1...). at least my local shop owner talked about this stuff, how many millions of x-men 1 got pumped out...particularly when he was trying to unload the gatefolds for $1 each

[RockMyAmadeus]

What you're talking about is contrary to human nature. People, in general, aren't going to sit on something if they stand to make a profit, unless there is some guarantee that they can make more if they hold longer. As you know, there's no such guarantee in the back issue comics market.

--------

 

please stop rma.

 

Too much common sense to handle...?

 

 

you might have had the wherewithal to unload your copies, maybe woogie did, but a lot of people bought, saw the price go up, said "cool" and there the books sat in their closets.

 

That's contrary to human nature. I'm sorry you don't believe that, but one doesn't need a PhD in psychology and/or economics to see that.

 

One more time: IF you were buying multiple copies "for investment purpose" (that is, speculating), then you did not TEND to see the price go up, say "cool", and leave them sitting in the closet. That would defeat the point of buying those multiples on spec in the first place.

 

Did it happen? Of course it did. Was it the exception? Yes, obviously.

 

and that's why you hit these books when you buy an OA collection from this era.

 

Most "OA" (I think you mean "OO"?) collections I see from this era are notably missing the keys, or they have the single copy that they kept. This conversation isn't about single copy buyers.

 

And when you run into "speculation hoards", #361 is almost always under-represented in comparison to #362 and #363.

 

were people buying 10 copies more likely to be the wheelers and dealers who figured out a way to unload some while they were hot, sure, but a lot of folks did not view this stuff as hot potatoes that needed to be dumped before they crashed. indeed, at this time prices were going up and up. asm 300 would be a $100 book in not too long, so maybe 361 could be $50+?

 

No. ASM #300 was a $30 book at this time. And there were plenty of RECENT examples on the market of books that were smoking hot, that were now dead.

 

Green Arrow Long Bow Hunters

Nick Fury vs. Shield

Batman #426-429

Almost every B&W comic published.

Justice League #1

 

i saw these collections being bought at my local shop in the late 90s for pennies...tons of these once hot 1991-1993 books that never got unloaded.

 

I don't doubt that you believe this, and I don't really doubt that it was true, to an extent...but they are anecdotes, and the plural of anecdote is not evidence. How could you possibly know, unless you surveyed the people who sold these collections? You can't possibly know how and when those people acquired those books.

 

If you buy what I have right now, you'll find 30 or so copies of #361 in various places. I didn't buy those 30 copies brand new.

 

You weren't finding hoards and hoards of ASM #361s in these collections that people "failed to unload" during its initial popularity.

 

For a book like Wolverine #50? Sure, you bet. 20, 30, 50, 100 copies...all bought brand new, all tucked away because it was going to be "hot."

 

ASM #361? No, for the reason I've stated ad nauseum.

 

"You can't tell someone what they were and weren't doing, RMA! You don't know! You weren't there!!!"

 

No, but I know what the data says, and I know what experience says, and I know what common sense says.

 

"But MY experience refutes you, RMA!"

 

Yes, but YOUR experience, whoever YOU are, is not typical, just like mine isn't, just like any single person's, or even small group of people's, isn't.

 

If you're talking about original (that is, not gathered after the fact) speculation hoards of this book, you're going to find very, very few of them, if any. And when such "hoards" surface...you're going to find that ASM #361 is going to be under-represented, if not entirely absent, from these collections.

 

criminey, i have the frigging internet and it is the 2000s and there are moderns i have bought that went up that are sitting in my boxes and then went down. i have copies of stuff of legends 1 around here somewhere gosh darnit and where are my copies of IZombie 1!!!

 

You are a self-admitted slacker, in dozens of posts, over many years. Your experience isn't exemplary of the greater population.

[RockMyAmadeus]

at least my local shop owner talked about this stuff, how many millions of x-men 1 got pumped out...particularly when he was trying to unload the gatefolds for $1 each

 

If your local shop owner was trying to "unload the gatefolds at $1 each", when he paid $2.00-$2.50 each for them as a retailer, he probably didn't know as much as he thought about print runs and demand and whatnot. He may not have been the savviest guy about it, after all...

 

[Hamlet]

What you're talking about is contrary to human nature. People, in general, aren't going to sit on something if they stand to make a profit, unless there is some guarantee that they can make more if they hold longer. As you know, there's no such guarantee in the back issue comics market.

 

Yes, there will be holdouts...but not many, and not at such a fast price rise. There is a point at which most people (all...?) will sell, and it didn't take all that much for those with multiple copies to start getting them back into circulation, which is exactly what happened.

 

I'm not arguing against your general premise (ie ASM 361 was ordered in amounts normal for ASM issues of the time, and that the price rise would have disseminated a large portion of the books that were pre-ordered by speculators).

 

However, I think you are simplifying human nature. There is a strong desire to hoard what other people find valuable, even if it isn't rational. The price rise itself generates some after-market hoarding, contrary to rational behavior. People like to buy things that are going up, even though rationally they should be selling them.

 

You see this in the stock market and collectables all the time. Ben Graham (Warren Buffett's teacher) had a joke about it--

 

A story that was passed down from Ben Graham illustrates the lemminglike behavior of the crowd: "Let me tell you the story of the oil prospector who met St. Peter at the Pearly Gates. When told his occupation, St. Peter said, “Oh, I’m really sorry. You seem to meet all the tests to get into heaven. But we’ve got a terrible problem. See that pen over there? That’s where we keep the oil prospectors waiting to get into heaven. And it’s filled—we haven’t got room for even one more.” The oil prospector thought for a minute and said, “Would you mind if I just said four words to those folks?” “I can’t see any harm in that,” said St. Pete. So the old-timer cupped his hands and yelled out, “Oil discovered in hell!” Immediately, the oil prospectors wrenched the lock off the door of the pen and out they flew, flapping their wings as hard as they could for the lower regions. “You know, that’s a pretty good trick,” St. Pete said. “Move in. The place is yours. You’ve got plenty of room.” The old fellow scratched his head and said, “No. If you don’t mind, I think I’ll go along with the rest of ’em. There may be some truth to that rumor after all."

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

What you're talking about is contrary to human nature. People, in general, aren't going to sit on something if they stand to make a profit, unless there is some guarantee that they can make more if they hold longer. As you know, there's no such guarantee in the back issue comics market.

 

Yes, there will be holdouts...but not many, and not at such a fast price rise. There is a point at which most people (all...?) will sell, and it didn't take all that much for those with multiple copies to start getting them back into circulation, which is exactly what happened.

 

I'm not arguing against your general premise (ie ASM 361 was ordered in amounts normal for ASM issues of the time, and that the price rise would have disseminated a large portion of the books that were pre-ordered by speculators).

 

However, I think you are simplifying human nature. There is a strong desire to hoard what other people find valuable, even if it isn't rational. The price rise itself generates some after-market hoarding, contrary to rational behavior. People like to buy things that are going up, even though rationally they should be selling them.

 

But we're talking about people who bought before the book was even released, or as the book was being released, for cover price or standard discounts off of that.

 

You're absolutely correct, there's a lot of irrational exuberance out there, and I'm sure there were people paying $3, $4, $5, even $10 or so for copies, plural....but that was after the fact, as you, yourself, note.

 

And there certainly wouldn't be after-market hoarding to anywhere near the extent as there was speculating.

 

So, I'm not seeing any disagreement.

[Hamlet]

What you're talking about is contrary to human nature. People, in general, aren't going to sit on something if they stand to make a profit, unless there is some guarantee that they can make more if they hold longer. As you know, there's no such guarantee in the back issue comics market.

 

Yes, there will be holdouts...but not many, and not at such a fast price rise. There is a point at which most people (all...?) will sell, and it didn't take all that much for those with multiple copies to start getting them back into circulation, which is exactly what happened.

 

I'm not arguing against your general premise (ie ASM 361 was ordered in amounts normal for ASM issues of the time, and that the price rise would have disseminated a large portion of the books that were pre-ordered by speculators).

 

However, I think you are simplifying human nature. There is a strong desire to hoard what other people find valuable, even if it isn't rational. The price rise itself generates some after-market hoarding, contrary to rational behavior. People like to buy things that are going up, even though rationally they should be selling them.

 

But we're talking about people who bought before the book was even released, or as the book was being released, for cover price or standard discounts off of that.

 

You're absolutely correct, there's a lot of irrational exuberance out there, and I'm sure there were people paying $3, $4, $5, even $10 or so for copies....but that was after the fact, as you, yourself, note.

 

So, I'm not seeing any disagreement.

 

You're talking about people who bought before the release, but to me it looks like many of the people arguing with you are not.

[RockMyAmadeus]

What you're talking about is contrary to human nature. People, in general, aren't going to sit on something if they stand to make a profit, unless there is some guarantee that they can make more if they hold longer. As you know, there's no such guarantee in the back issue comics market.

 

Yes, there will be holdouts...but not many, and not at such a fast price rise. There is a point at which most people (all...?) will sell, and it didn't take all that much for those with multiple copies to start getting them back into circulation, which is exactly what happened.

 

I'm not arguing against your general premise (ie ASM 361 was ordered in amounts normal for ASM issues of the time, and that the price rise would have disseminated a large portion of the books that were pre-ordered by speculators).

 

However, I think you are simplifying human nature. There is a strong desire to hoard what other people find valuable, even if it isn't rational. The price rise itself generates some after-market hoarding, contrary to rational behavior. People like to buy things that are going up, even though rationally they should be selling them.

 

But we're talking about people who bought before the book was even released, or as the book was being released, for cover price or standard discounts off of that.

 

You're absolutely correct, there's a lot of irrational exuberance out there, and I'm sure there were people paying $3, $4, $5, even $10 or so for copies....but that was after the fact, as you, yourself, note.

 

So, I'm not seeing any disagreement.

 

You're talking about people who bought before the release, but to me it looks like many of the people arguing with you are not.

 

Of course. Well, before, or during, right before it officially "sold out" and started commanding higher than cover price.

 

But that's not because of a lack of explanation on my part.

 

[revat]

I think in general, some of the perceived (or real) disagreements in this thread have been based on potentially differing views on the words 'speculation' and 'hoarding'.

 

People pre-ordering something by the boatfuls to hold on to them to sell for profit later is CLEARLY something different then people seeing an otherwise regularly ordered comic, noticing how awesome it is and driving to every outhouse, boathouse, greenhouse, and truckstop in the tri-state area to pull them off the rack.

 

BUT as someone suggested, due to the sudden 'post-release' popularity of this comic, LESS of the newsstand copies might have been returned to the distributor than was common at the time, so its stands to reason that there might be MORE actual comics out there than other ASM's in that same range. HOWEVER, there's no real accurate way to guess that number. ADDITIONALLY, that's not the same thing as PRINT RUN. The number printed is the number printed, regardless of how many were returned, or sold, or hoarded.

 

At this point I personally (and I might have missed some stuff) have yet to see evidence in this thread or elsewhere that leads me to believe that that this issue was ORDERED or PROMOTED heavily ahead of time, which are generally indicators of print run. Many people on these boards owned or worked at or frequented comics book stores at the time, and not many have come forward to say "Oh yah, I remember ordering double my normal # of ASM's" or "Oh, I remember there being waaaay more copies of that on the shelf than normal at my LCS or newsstand". I personally remember some of my friends with multiple copies a few months later, which was abnormal, but I'm not sure that really is an indicator either way of print run.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I think in general, some of the perceived (or real) disagreements in this thread have been based on potentially differing views on the words 'speculation' and 'hoarding'.

 

Yes.

 

Speculation - purchasing an item or items in the hope that it will rise in value and result in benefit to the speculator.

 

Hoarding - gathering multiple examples of an item or items.

 

Speculation is not hoarding, and vice versa, though there may be elements of both present.

 

People pre-ordering something by the boatfuls to hold on to them to sell for profit later is CLEARLY something different then people seeing an otherwise regularly ordered comic, noticing how awesome it is and driving to every outhouse, boathouse, greenhouse, and truckstop in the tri-state area to pull them off the rack.

 

Yes, which goes to the heart of the original question: what was the print run of this book?

 

And the impetus for the direction the thread went in was questioning the subsequent distribution of this issue. Because of the nature of this book, and both its supply and demand, it resulted in wider distribution overall than an average issue of the time period.

 

BUT as someone suggested, due to the sudden 'post-release' popularity of this comic, LESS of the newsstand copies might have been returned to the distributor than was common at the time, so its stands to reason that there might be MORE actual comics out there than other ASM's in that same range. HOWEVER, there's no real accurate way to guess that number. ADDITIONALLY, that's not the same thing as PRINT RUN. The number printed is the number printed, regardless of how many were returned, or sold, or hoarded.

 

Absolutely. Many of these books...Superman #50, Robin #1, ASM #361, and Superman #75....were scooped up at newsstands, so the resulting extant copies tended to be higher than usual. This was true going all the way back to Thor #337, the very first "out of left field hot new book" in the Direct market era (of course, that assumes that all returns were properly disposed of in the first place, which we know wasn't true...which is a whole other ball of wax.)

 

At this point I personally (and I might have missed some stuff) have yet to see evidence in this thread or elsewhere that leads me to believe that that this issue was ORDERED or PROMOTED heavily ahead of time, which are generally indicators of print run. Many people on these boards owned or worked at or frequented comics book stores at the time, and not many have come forward to say "Oh yah, I remember ordering double my normal # of ASM's" or "Oh, I remember there being waaaay more copies of that on the shelf than normal at my LCS or newsstand". I personally remember some of my friends with multiple copies a few months later, which was abnormal, but I'm not sure that really is an indicator either way of print run.

 

Agreed. I'm not seeing anything that indicates there was anything unusual about this book in any respect, until it actually landed on the shelves, and then it was chaos...at which point, it was already far too late to do anything about the initial print run.

[the blob]

RMA, I have not disagreed with you re: pre-orders on this particular book, just your general notion that there weren't a bunch of collectors out there buying 5 or 10 copies of various books out there who weren't looking to sell right away once they were worth something.

 

That the print-run was perhaps only 5-10% larger than the prior issue may be indicative of not many extra copies being ordered on speculation, that does not mean some people weren't rushing out and getting 5 or 10 off the rack before others could get their hands on them and then hoarding them because it was decided early on this was a hot issue. ASM was pretty popular anyway. people were salting away extra copies in general. 5X or more bigger print-run than, let's say, a 2d/3rd tier title like New Mutants was befofe Liefield jumped on, and many of DCs 2d tier titles as well.

 

As for "human nature"...huge generalities going on here. Human nature has one thinking "yeah, i should really go out and try to sell these" whereas actually going out and DOING that is another thing. Life gets in the way. i worked at a shop p-t and when i wasn't working i often hung out there another couple of hours a day before going home, eating dinner, and then working a graveyard shift as a security guard and then going to law school during the day (slacker my arse...). yes, i had no life in law school.

 

At the time I was not the flipper I am now. I am not sure I was thinking it all out, but i did have some idea in my head that once I got a decent enough inventory together I would sell at local shows, so I wasn't running around selling what I had right away. x-men 201 got hot and i had several copies bought years earlier. did i run out and sell them? of course not, i thought those would be long-term keepers!

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

RMA, I have not disagreed with you re: pre-orders on this particular book, just your general notion that there weren't a bunch of collectors out there buying 5 or 10 copies of various books out there who weren't looking to sell right away once they were worth something.

 

How much is "a bunch"...?

 

That the print-run was perhaps only 5-10% larger than the prior issue may be indicative of not many extra copies being ordered on speculation, that does not mean some people weren't rushing out and getting 5 or 10 off the rack before others could get their hands on them and then hoarding them because it was decided early on this was a hot issue.

 

No, and I've never said anything contrary to that.

 

But the tendency, as value rose, would be to sell/trade them, not "stick them in a closet and forget them."

 

You're still arguing the exception as if it was the rule.

 

ASM was pretty popular anyway. people were salting away extra copies in general.

 

NOW you've got it! There was nothing particular special about this issue, until it hit the shelves.

 

5X or more bigger print-run than, let's say, a 2d/3rd tier title like New Mutants was befofe Liefield jumped on, and many of DCs 2d tier titles as well.

 

No, not at that point. ASM's average for the 80's and early 90's was a net press run of about 450,000 copies per issue. New Mutants for the time (1987-1990) was about 300,000, with around 190-210k sold.

 

That was about 1.5x New Mutants, prior to Liefeld, not 5x. Big difference.

 

Spidey's numbers wouldn't get stupid until 1992.

 

As for "human nature"...huge generalities going on here. Human nature has one thinking "yeah, i should really go out and try to sell these" whereas actually going out and DOING that is another thing. Life gets in the way. i worked at a shop p-t and when i wasn't working i often hung out there another couple of hours a day before going home, eating dinner, and then working a graveyard shift as a security guard and then going to law school during the day (slacker my arse...). yes, i had no life in law school.

 

Again, anecdotes. Human nature doesn't say "this person will do this thing in this situation." It says what people will tend to do, and tendencies are how we arrive at things like "averages" and "statistics."

 

Like I said...you were the one who defined yourself as a slacker. Don't get mad at me for repeating it.

 

 

At the time I was not the flipper I am now. I am not sure I was thinking it all out, but i did have some idea in my head that once I got a decent enough inventory together I would sell at local shows, so I wasn't running around selling what I had right away. x-men 201 got hot and i had several copies bought years earlier. did i run out and sell them? of course not, i thought those would be long-term keepers!

 

X-Men #201 is an entirely different beast than ASM #361. X-Men #201 didn't gain any sort of momentum until 5+ years after it was published.

[porcupine48]

When memories conflict with data, which has to go?

 

Sure. I got the cover prices of ASM 359+360 wrong. Didn't feel the need to note that because it's obvious. Duh.

 

Noting it is a matter of courtesy and acknowledgement, more than anything.

 

Why does it matter? Couple of reasons. The specific detail isn't important...what is important is that you made a key point about the print run (that it was "depressed" because of the higher new cost, which would be a fair point to make, if true) that was based on something that wasn't accurate, but those who didn't take the time to research it (i.e., most of the people reading this) might have easily accepted at face value, and carried that bad information forward.

 

Facts always matter. Anyone having a serious discussion about these things has to as accurate as possible, and certainly shouldn't be giving other people a hard time because they insist on accuracy, especially when such information is literally fact-checkable with a few Google clicks.

 

It's lazy, and tells anyone who is paying attention that the details of the conversation don't really matter, it's just arguing to argue.

 

But also it's because, when I have these types of discussions, I don't sit back and shoot from the hip, just spouting off my memories and impressions (not saying that anyone else is, either; if they are, that's for others to decide for themselves.) I physically went to find that issue of Previews, looking through several boxes, to confirm, not just for everyone else, but also for myself, the claim that Peter G made that "I distinctly remember that there was a lot of promotion on this particular issue."

 

There wasn't. Previews showed half the cover, in B&W (to be fair, it was ALL B&W in those days), and that was it. They didn't even have the name "Carnage" yet. No spotlight, no "gem of the month", no full page ad like Cage #1 and MCP #100, among others.

 

(I have several boxes of Previews for research purposes, for whatever level of dedication to comics research that demonstrates.)

 

So, Peter G's recollections don't look like they stand up to scrutiny, but for that, he says I provided "no evidence", with pages of it still right here all over this thread, and then made it personal. And, for the umpteen millionth time, I am told "you always think you're right" in this conversation...which is always true of everyone...when I went out and did the actual legwork and research, which no one else did, with the exception of Valiantman.

 

So, yes, if I have an expectation that the person who does the research to support his/her case should be the one whose conclusions carry the most weight, I don't think that's a very unreasonable expectation to have.

 

Am I tooting my own horn? Not at all. Doing the legwork and research to get at the truth of a matter is what drives me, because then everyone involved is enriched, and comes away from the discussion knowing more than when they started.

 

But, it does get a bit frustrating when people who aren't willing to do the research challenge those who do it, who don't read what others say (is anyone reading this right now...?), then respond according to how they see still others reacting to what is said, rather than seeing for themselves what is actually said, and then it takes some serious drawing out to just get someone to acknowledge they made a mistake that has direct bearing on the point they're making.

 

I admit I'm wrong, when I make a mistake. I say "oops. Sorry about that, my mistake, thanks for the correction" (most of the time...I'm still human), and then move on, which is why it never registers. But pride is a person_without_enough_empathy, and no one likes to be corrected, so there it goes. What the "you never admit you're wrong" crowd really means is "you don't agree with ME. How dare you."

 

Does any of this matter? In the grand scheme of things, not really. Is it going to change anyone, including me? Probably not. But, it's important to keep the record straight, if, for no other reason, so that people don't walk around carrying bad information, and making bad decisions based on that bad information, without having been given the chance to have correct information.

 

But that mistake doesn't invalidate my opinions on or experience of the time period (i.e., credibility, as one who's been in this game for 25+ years) any more than your one-time repeated insistence that Superman 75 was released on Nov. 20 -- even after presented with incontrovertible proof to the contrary -- damages your credibility on all things Death/Return of Superman.

 

I'm sorry, but that's not only not accurate, those couldn't possibly be more different circumstances that you're trying to compare.

 

1. It's not my "one-time" repeated insistence. I stand by it to this very day, because I know when comic books were released on the West Coast in November of 1992: on Friday. That book appeared on the shelves of comic book stores across California on Nov 20th, 1992. Whether it appeared on Wednesday, Nov 18th in New York doesn't alter that fact. Not only that, I personally delivered 400 of them to various stores that had ordered them, that day, Friday, across the SF East Bay area.

 

2. As others have reported, the "new comics day" varied across the country, with some reporting Wednesday, and others reporting Friday (which it was on the West Coast), so no, it's not "incontrovertible proof", and never has been.

 

The result of that conversation was that everyone came to the correct conclusion that books were released at that time on different days of the week, depending on region/location/distribution. Which means that, ANY day between Nov 17 (which was DC's official street date) and Nov 20 was accurate.

 

This needs to be said: there's a substantial and significant different between a genuine disagreement based on conflicting data (Nov 18th vs Nov 20th) and laziness about double checking the cover price to ASM #359 and #360.

 

They're simply not comparable, as a means of discussing credibility. One is easily fact-checked, the other was a disagreement based on conflicting information.

 

By the way....that didn't even take into account the newsstand distribution which was usually 2-3 weeks LATER.

 

So...if you're going to make an issue out of it, you ought to pick an issue where there was actual incontrovertible proof of error, rather than a situation that depended on mitigating circumstances.

 

It doesn't.

 

I didn't pre-order 361. But my teacher did, and gave me a week's heads-up. And independently, my LCS had vastly upped their orders, yet still instituted "1 per customer" the day of release.

 

I'll ask again, because I believe I asked before, and didn't get an answer: how did your teacher order, when, and why? And, what does "vastly upped" mean? Double? Triple? We know Cap City had orders of about 20% more on #361 than #360.

 

Without those details, the anecdotes don't help.

 

And I bought my (4) copies off the shelf week 1 as an INVESTMENT, but not to FLIP. These were the first ASM dupes I bought, having started buying (unfortunately) with # 326. The goal was to keep the books for 20+ years (which, incidentally, I did). Not everyone, apparently, had the same mindset as you.

 

Again: you're arguing the exception, as if it were the rule.

 

I don't doubt you, and I don't disbelieve you, nor am I referring to MY "mindset." My point, as I have stated multiple times, is that the majority of people who bought multiple copies of new books, then as now, did so to flip. Because ASM #361 took everyone by surprise...which it did...the demand was such that the book, unlike most books of that era, went up quite substantially in price in a very short time.

 

Are there people who bought them for long term investment? Of course! It would be foolish to think otherwise. But, the majority of people buying multiple copies of brand new books were going to tend to sell them, as the demand (and price) got higher, which would result in greater distribution than otherwise...which is why, as Hamlet said, people had 30 copies of Wolverine #50, but only 3 copies of ASM #361, when the smoke cleared.

 

I bought multiple copies of X-Force #1. 80 of them, to be exact. I bought them because I thought it would be a "good investment." I didn't know any better. That's part of the reason I'm so vociferous about these things NOW...because I had to learn hard lessons.

 

But, if X-Force #1 had, for some bizarre reason, actually been underordered (it was not, despite the second printing), and it had gone to $10-$15-$20 within a couple of months of release, I would have sold/traded at least a good chunk of them, as would everyone else who was doing the same thing.

 

Also, while the relative print run data is interesting, I don't buy the argument that "instant 2nd printing" equates to not heavily speculated upon.

 

That's not what I said. What I said was this: "Books that go into immediate reprintings didn't have enough copies printed in the first place to satisfy demand." and "Books that sell out quickly enough to have an immediate second printing aren't hoarded....they are distributed far and wide."

 

And, there IS a difference between a book that has a second printing because it has been heavily speculated (Spiderman #1) and one that simply sells out (like ASM #361.)

 

Again: you can't use "hoarded" and "speculated" interchangeably.

 

The former means that people gather them up and held them.

 

The latter simply means they thought they would be worth something higher than acquisition cost at some point.

 

And, according to the data we have, ASM #361 wasn't speculated in much greater numbers (say, more than a 20% bump) than other issues of the day.

 

#358 was speculated on in far higher numbers, for example, because of the gatefold cover (which turned out to be quite passé, but was rather novel at the time.) So, by the way, was #363.

 

Also...there is a difference between speculating on a book by placing an order for it (which affects the print run) and speculating on a book by buying it on the shelf (which doesn't affect the print run.)

 

ASM #361 wasn't speculated the first way much more than most other issues of ASM, and certainly wasn't speculated the second way, because, as you note, it was "1 per customer"...in other words, there wasn't really a CHANCE to speculate on this book after it was placed on sale; it was already a hit. Sure, there was certainly some degree of "on the shelf speculation" happening, but it wasn't really all THAT speculative, when everyone's grabbing a copy in front of you.

 

Plenty of books from 1990-92 were heavily printed (& speculated upon), went to near-instant second printings, and _still_ saw their first prints go up in value quickly. Some examples:

 

Spider-Man 1

 

Not true. Spiderman #1 did not go up in value quickly, or at all. The only books that had value were the bagged copies. If someone paid more than $5 for a regular copy, he would have paid more than he could have, from just about anyone.

 

Having an immediate second printing does NOT *necessarily* mean that a book is going to be valuable...what it means is that it was underordered, and sold out at the distribution level.

 

Man of Steel 1

 

Man of Steel #1 didn't have a second printing, and because it was the highest ordered book of the year, neither needed one, nor did it ever "go up in value very quickly" (or at all.)

 

FF 347

 

Partially true. Though CC order numbers for FF #347 were up significantly over the immediately preceding issues (avg about 31-32k copies), at 47,400, it was still less than New Mutants #96 (55,500) X-Factor #61 (59,600) and a little more than half of X-Men #271 (at 87,000.)

 

And...it featured art by then still very popular Art Adams, and teamed the hottest characters in comics at the time: Ghost Rider, Wolverine, and Spidey.

 

Even with all of that, it never managed to break the $10 barrier on a national scale (if at all), or for any length of time.

 

In the case of several of the books you list here, many of them weren't "heavily printed", relative to the time period. This was one of them. About average numbers. Good for FF...not all that special, though.

 

Hulk 377

 

Hulk #377 was advertised as having a "neon cover." It did not. It had an INTERESTING cover, but it was advertised as having a special gimmick. Still, CC orders for the book, while double the usual Hulk numbers, were still only 58,600 copies...which was less than New Mutants #97 (64,400), and X-Men #272 (93,100), and Hulk was getting to be quite the hot book (Keown) at that time.

 

Not "heavily printed."

 

Ghost Rider 5

 

This was, again, a book that took everyone by surprise...a bit. Orders for the title weren't all that hot early on, and #4 was a famously "under distributed" issue (tough Cap City numbers for #2 and #3 are a bit lower.)

 

But #5 featured...you guessed it...the Punisher, who was enjoying his reign as the hottest character in comics. Still...Cap City orders for #5 were only 52,800, just about 20% more than for #4 at 44,000.

 

As well, Ghost Rider #1 wasn't second printed until issue #5 came out, both on sale in July of 1990. I remember seeing a huge stack of #5s at Comics and Comix on Telegraph in Berkley. Those were the days.

 

Anyhoo...not heavily printed, especially coming out the same month as Spiderman #2, which had Cap City orders of 168,600...or more than three times that of GR #5.

 

Robin 1

 

I've already addressed Robin #1. It turned out to be the #1 selling DC of the year (1990), and also took everyone by surprise. It belongs in the same category as ASM #361. Even still, the print run was a bit more than X-Men #272, and a little more than [/b]half the best selling issue of the month, Spiderman #6.

 

Batman #457 (also second printed), was the lead-up to this issue, and people were ready to feel frisky about Batman again...plus, Neal Adams poster (and Neal wasn't doing any DC work in those days.)

 

Gimmicks galore.

 

But it is about as close to the ASM #361 situation as your list gets. It was a legit $20 book by the end of December (came out in November.)

 

Something to keep in mind: DC books weren't speculated to anywhere near the degree that Marvel books were, with the possible exception of Batman books.

 

Spectacular 189

 

The first of the four hologram covers that month (and it was SUPPOSED to be a FULL hologram cover, a la Ultraverse the next year), and the lowest ordered (85,100.) It was the only one of the four that had ANY back issue value, and again...$10 is probably where it maxed out.

 

Gimmicks all the way. They sold well, but they weren't necessarily printed in great amounts, or, if they were, had no subsequent value.

 

Silver Surfer 50

 

As I recall (and this might be true of a couple of the books on this list), the second printing of this book did not come out until sometime during Infinity Gauntlet. Regardless, it's another gimmick, and gimmicks ruled the day. There are no Cap City numbers for this book, so we don't have a clear idea of print run, but Silver Surfer orders were in the toilet until issue #49...29k, 30k, 33k...so #50's numbers wouldn't be in the "heavily printed" category.

 

Gimmicks that looked great....like this one...did very well when they went on sale.

 

Man of Steel 18

 

Again, not true. This book never held any substantial value as a back issue, even at the height of the Superman #75 craze. It *might* have been as high as $10? And, none of these books were "instantly second printed." The first "second printing" of this story was Superman #75. As well, the order numbers for MOS #18 vs. Superman #75 look like this:

 

MOS #18 - 26,350

 

Superman #75 - 281,400 (and those are just the Cap City orders for the $2.50 Collector's Bagged edition. The numbers for the regular edition aren't there, but the book sold 4 million or so first printings.)

 

As strange as it may sound to some, people weren't after "Doomsday"...they wanted the "issue where Superman dies." As such, yes, there was collateral demand for the entire storyline, and yes, they were all reprinted fairly quickly...but the focus was entirely on Superman #75.

 

Superman 75

 

This is the only legitimate inclusion in this list, the grand-daddy of all the "instant sellout, massive demand, went up in value very quickly" issues that have come out.

 

_None_ of these books was a surprise for those watching the market.

 

That's because _Half_ of them don't belong on this list. Hard to be surprised by that which isn't surprising.

 

 

Again, the surprises (at least in Philly at the time) were books like Barbie 1, Ren & Stimpy 1, Vampirella 1, Alpha Flight 106 -- I don't know _anyone_ who called those ahead of time. Show me someone who did & I'll be impressed.

 

You won't believe me, because it's an anecdote, but people in the Bay Area were talking about Alpha Flight #106 before it came out as a potentially hot book.

 

I don't recall Barbie #1 being all that hot a book. Vengeance of Vampirella #1, yes, definitely took people by surprise, as did Lady Death #1.

 

But ASM 361? Yeah -- it had potential.

 

Again....not according to the order numbers, or the rankings at Diamond, or the advertising material, or....

 

(Congrats to anyone who made it this far!)

I read it all!

[mr_highgrade]

When this issue came out it quickly sold out. I was only able to grab one copy from my comic shop.

Three weeks later I went to every newsstand that I could find and snapped up around 125 copies.

This is what I have left today.

 

 

 

But, why would anyone speculate on it or hoard it to this day?

 

I thought it was a no brainer when I saw the cover.

The first thing that popped inside my head was Spidey #300.

I also pre-ordered at 40% of cover the following books.

 

100 copies of X-men #281

150 copies of X-men #282

100 copies of X-men #283

50 copies of Silver Surfer #50 2nd Print

20 copies of Infinity Gauntlet #1

100 copies of Spidey #362

100 copies of Spidey #363

 

There's probably a few more books that I don't recalled.

[the blob]

No, not at that point. ASM's average for the 80's and early 90's was a net press run of about 450,000 copies per issue. New Mutants for the time (1987-1990) was about 300,000, with around 190-210k sold.

 

That was about 1.5x New Mutants, prior to Liefeld, not 5x. Big difference.

-------

 

I still have liefield bragging in some article in my head that before he came on new mutants was dipping below 100K and about to become a direct only book, but that would be sales anyway, not print-run, and he was probably full of it anyway.

[Silverdream]

When this issue came out it quickly sold out. I was only able to grab one copy from my comic shop.

Three weeks later I went to every newsstand that I could find and snapped up around 125 copies.

This is what I have left today.

 

 

 

I love this picture.

 

While hitting up the newsstands for THIS many copies was not normal, it exemplifies what happened with this book.

 

The newsstand returns for this book, while completely unknown, by ANYONE here, an assumption, educated guess, logical conclusion, whatever you want to call it must be made that the returns on ASM 361 was drastically lower than any book prior to it.

 

 

If a book was so popular that it sells out right off, goes up in price at the local comic shops and commands a near immediate second printing, wouldn't it be logical to assume that most collectors would have checked their local bookstores / corner stores for a copy if they couldn't get one? Wouldn't it be logical that some store owners, who were getting $3-10 a copy within a week or two of release, would check some stores as well?

 

It is logical, and it happened all across the U.S. It's not anecdotal, its just too obvious to ignore.

 

Not many newsstand copies of this book got pulped. It adds an element that isn't normally considered, though it has been brought up before.

[revat]

When this issue came out it quickly sold out. I was only able to grab one copy from my comic shop.

Three weeks later I went to every newsstand that I could find and snapped up around 125 copies.

This is what I have left today.

 

 

 

I love this picture.

 

While hitting up the newsstands for THIS many copies was not normal, it exemplifies what happened with this book.

 

The newsstand returns for this book, while completely unknown, by ANYONE here, an assumption, educated guess, logical conclusion, whatever you want to call it must be made that the returns on ASM 361 was drastically lower than any book prior to it.

 

 

If a book was so popular that it sells out right off, goes up in price at the local comic shops and commands a near immediate second printing, wouldn't it be logical to assume that most collectors would have checked their local bookstores / corner stores for a copy if they couldn't get one? Wouldn't it be logical that some store owners, who were getting $3-10 a copy within a week or two of release, would check some stores as well?

 

It is logical, and it happened all across the U.S. It's not anecdotal, its just too obvious to ignore.

 

Not many newsstand copies of this book got pulped. It adds an element that isn't normally considered, though it has been brought up before.

 

yes, but this is a comment on how many book are in circulation (relative to other comparable books), not a comment on how many books were ACUTALLY PRINTED (relative to comparable books)