Amazing Spider-Man 361 Print Run

[mysterio]

My friend,

 

 

 

Speaking for myself, I'd like to see you reconcile this:

 

Nobody is saying this book was ordered like mc spidey # 1

 

Merely, that asm 361 was ordered above and beyond regular circulation numbers for the publication

 

With this:

 

The print run wasn't that large, comparatively.

 

Numbers for Cap City:

 

#359 - 60,600

#360 - 57,300

#361 - 68,700

#362 - 76,800

#363 - 102,600

#364 - 72,000

#365 - 221,700

 

 

That would be a start for the evidence. If the numbers support the idea that #361 wasn't heavily ordered relative to the adjacent issues, then that might not support your recollection of events. Thus, I find it a bit fascinating that you continue to reiterate your memory while railing at RMA for providing the evidence that points out the flaw in said memory.

 

Mysterio,

 

I definitely have my own thoughts on the value of those numbers and their evidentiary value. However, the dialogue gets uninteresting when the antics of certain people levy personal attacks and generally behave in a juvenile manner. I quickly become uninterested in the conversation at that point and make a mental note to avoid such a poster in the future.

 

Best Regards,

 

Peter G

 

In other words, you're taking it personally. The numbers mean what they mean; unless someone can supply better data they make his point. #361 was not unusually ordered. Where are the attacks?

[Broke as a Joke]

Collectors who bought 5 to 10 copies of ASM 361 had really no venues to resell that book in such a small time frame (2-3 months) Dealers were not buying this book from some guy off the street. They didn't have to.

[RockMyAmadeus]

RMA, I think you are underestimating the number of people, even in 1992, who were buying from their shops and saying "yeah, gimme 10 of those, 5 of those..." and perhaps even "50 of those" and shops saying "I'll order an extra 150 copies because I will always be able to sell them for a buck and maybe they'll be $5 books." ASM being a fairly popular title, it's not like a hot book would be exactly "out of nowhere."

 

No. That's not correct.

 

I'll say it again: people were speculating, but no one speculated on ASM #361 in any sort of unusual or exceptional way. The numbers we have bear that out. That doesn't mean people didn't speculate on #361....but to say "OMG, people ordered CASE loads of the book!" isn't accurate. It didn't happen, except in rare instances. Do you know what people DID order case loads of? #363. #365. #375. Those were ordered by the case load. And, as we know, those books turned out to be, and have remained, duds since the moment they were printed, making money only for Marvel, Diamond, and the original retailers.

 

We're not talking about speculation, though. We're talking about hoarding after the fact. And when a book is $25 within a month or two, those who paid $1.25 for them aren't going to be keeping them very long.

 

And I think you are underestimating the number of people who either got stuck with their hoards of moderns because there was nowhere to sell them locally for more than 3 cents each or who viewed these as long-term investments, or at least something that held their value.

 

I disagree, and I think you're underestimating the places where people could sell them, the amount they could sell them for, and the rapidity with which this book escalated in value.

 

In 1992-1993 I viewed comics generally as such because the vintage stuff seemed to be selling for more than it had been selling for when i got out of comics, particularly because I wasn't collecting during the various crashes of the late 80s, the B&W bust, etc., so I had not been as savy to it, and neither had the card collectors who were shifting over to comics around then. Let's face it, around then a lot of people were getting into comics or re-getting into comics who may not have appreciated that ASM 361 might not stay a $25 book.

 

That didn't much matter to the people who paid $1.25 for them (or less.)

 

Yes, there would always be people who kept a few back, perhaps. But the pressure created by being $20-$25 so fast would be much to great for the majority of "flippers", and they did what flippers do: flipped.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Collectors who bought 5 to 10 copies of ASM 361 had really no venues to resell that book in such a small time frame (2-3 months) Dealers were not buying this book from some guy off the street. They didn't have to.

 

This is not true.

[Peter G]

My friend,

 

 

 

Speaking for myself, I'd like to see you reconcile this:

 

Nobody is saying this book was ordered like mc spidey # 1

 

Merely, that asm 361 was ordered above and beyond regular circulation numbers for the publication

 

With this:

 

The print run wasn't that large, comparatively.

 

Numbers for Cap City:

 

#359 - 60,600

#360 - 57,300

#361 - 68,700

#362 - 76,800

#363 - 102,600

#364 - 72,000

#365 - 221,700

 

 

That would be a start for the evidence. If the numbers support the idea that #361 wasn't heavily ordered relative to the adjacent issues, then that might not support your recollection of events. Thus, I find it a bit fascinating that you continue to reiterate your memory while railing at RMA for providing the evidence that points out the flaw in said memory.

 

Mysterio,

 

I definitely have my own thoughts on the value of those numbers and their evidentiary value. However, the dialogue gets uninteresting when the antics of certain people levy personal attacks and generally behave in a juvenile manner. I quickly become uninterested in the conversation at that point and make a mental note to avoid such a poster in the future.

 

Best Regards,

 

Peter G

 

In other words, you're taking it personally. The numbers mean what they mean; unless someone can supply better data they make his point. #361 was not unusually ordered. Where are the attacks?

 

Mysterio,

 

There is a way to communicate with people properly even though we all hide behind computer screens. If a poster is interested in having a serious dialogue on a subject then I am interested in discovering the truth, wherever the truth lies. But that is not what is going on here. There is somebody that is questioning reasoning skills and making assessment of credibility and mocking others that disagree. I will be no part of such behavior. I bow out, not because I don't have thoughts on the subject but merely because I don't condone such behavior. Perhaps the poster is young and does not know better. I do not know the answer. There are some good people on this here board. And there are others that I have learned to avoid.

 

Best,

 

Peter G

[Hamlet]

RMA, I think you are underestimating the number of people, even in 1992, who were buying from their shops and saying "yeah, gimme 10 of those, 5 of those..." and perhaps even "50 of those" and shops saying "I'll order an extra 150 copies because I will always be able to sell them for a buck and maybe they'll be $5 books." ASM being a fairly popular title, it's not like a hot book would be exactly "out of nowhere." And I think you are underestimating the number of people who either got stuck with their hoards of moderns because there was nowhere to sell them locally for more than 3 cents each or who viewed these as long-term investments, or at least something that held their value. In 1992-1993 I viewed comics generally as such because the vintage stuff seemed to be selling for more than it had been selling for when i got out of comics, particularly because I wasn't collecting during the various crashes of the late 80s, the B&W bust, etc., so I had not been as savy to it, and neither had the card collectors who were shifting over to comics around then. Let's face it, around then a lot of people were getting into comics or re-getting into comics who may not have appreciated that ASM 361 might not stay a $25 book. I looked at some of the Valiant stuff as likely crash victims when I got back in, but some of those were so expensive it made no sense to me.

 

I think a lot of people are talking past each other a lot in this thread without really taking the time to understand what is being said. Here is my take from the thread.

 

1. ASM 361 had orders that were mostly in-line with the typical orders for the title at the time. The estimates of 450k or so for the print run seem like the best estimate to me. I might guess a little higher because it seems like the newsstand sell-thru would have been better than an average issue, but it has to be in the ballpark. RMA's Cap City data backs this. Note that any ASM issue had a fair amount of speculation built into it at the time. 450k may not have been unusual for the title at the time, but it is still a massive number of copies that involved a lot of people buying massive numbers of multiple copies.

 

2. When the book came out, it was wildly popular, and many more people bought multiples off the stand as speculators. This led to the book selling out and getting a second printing.

 

3. RMA is saying that most of those multiples probably got sold off as the price rose, rather than hoarded. This is a relative thing given the time period. He's not saying that nobody hoarded them, just that the elevated price would have pulled more of them out of the speculators' hands compared to a book like Wolverine 50, which was wildly speculated on during the ordering process but did not have the demand to elevate the price and get the books distributed away from the speculators. The speculators got stuck with the Wolverine 50s, but mostly sold off the ASM 361 for a nice profit. Which is why I have one copy of ASM 361 and 30 or so of Wolverine 50.

 

Does anyone think any of this is really wildly off-base?

 

 

 

[Broke as a Joke]

I would like proof that a dealer would pay $25 for a copy of 361 to a teenager like yourself at the time. Besides trades and whatever.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Mysterio,

 

I definitely have my own thoughts on the value of those numbers and their evidentiary value. However, the dialogue gets uninteresting when the antics of certain people levy personal attacks and generally behave in a juvenile manner. I quickly become uninterested in the conversation at that point and make a mental note to avoid such a poster in the future.

 

Best Regards,

 

Peter G

 

No one has attacked you. There hasn't been a single personal attack levied against you in this entire thread.

 

Are you so sensitive that you cannot handle being disagreed with, without taking it personally? What is juvenile about disagreeing with someone?

 

Mysterio is absolutely correct. You made claims you couldn't support, you were challenged, you got mad, and now you've made up scenarios that don't exist to justify yourself.

 

That is the very essence of behaving in a juvenile manner.

 

How unfortunate.

 

I don't take your false accusation personally, Peter G. I hope you that you can learn to be challenged without taking things personally, too.

[RockMyAmadeus]

RMA, I think you are underestimating the number of people, even in 1992, who were buying from their shops and saying "yeah, gimme 10 of those, 5 of those..." and perhaps even "50 of those" and shops saying "I'll order an extra 150 copies because I will always be able to sell them for a buck and maybe they'll be $5 books." ASM being a fairly popular title, it's not like a hot book would be exactly "out of nowhere." And I think you are underestimating the number of people who either got stuck with their hoards of moderns because there was nowhere to sell them locally for more than 3 cents each or who viewed these as long-term investments, or at least something that held their value. In 1992-1993 I viewed comics generally as such because the vintage stuff seemed to be selling for more than it had been selling for when i got out of comics, particularly because I wasn't collecting during the various crashes of the late 80s, the B&W bust, etc., so I had not been as savy to it, and neither had the card collectors who were shifting over to comics around then. Let's face it, around then a lot of people were getting into comics or re-getting into comics who may not have appreciated that ASM 361 might not stay a $25 book. I looked at some of the Valiant stuff as likely crash victims when I got back in, but some of those were so expensive it made no sense to me.

 

I think a lot of people are talking past each other a lot in this thread without really taking the time to understand what is being said. Here is my take from the thread.

 

1. ASM 361 had orders that were mostly in-line with the typical orders for the title at the time. The estimates of 450k or so for the print run seem like the best estimate to me. I might guess a little higher because it seems like the newsstand sell-thru would have been better than an average issue, but it has to be in the ballpark. RMA's Cap City data backs this. Note that any ASM issue had a fair amount of speculation built into it at the time. 450k may not have been unusual for the title at the time, but it is still a massive number of copies that involved a lot of people buying massive numbers of multiple copies.

 

2. When the book came out, it was wildly popular, and many more people bought multiples off the stand as speculators. This led to the book selling out and getting a second printing.

 

3. RMA is saying that most of those multiples probably got sold off as the price rose, rather than hoarded. This is a relative thing given the time period. He's not saying that nobody hoarded them, just that the elevated price would have pulled more of them out of the speculators' hands compared to a book like Wolverine 50, which was wildly speculated on during the ordering process but did not have the demand to elevate the price and get the books distributed away from the speculators. The speculators got stuck with the Wolverine 50s, but mostly sold off the ASM 361 for a nice profit. Which is why I have one copy of ASM 361 and 30 or so of Wolverine 50.

 

Does anyone think any of this is really wildly off-base?

 

 

 

Yes, that's an excellent summation.

[Peter G]

 

Mysterio,

 

I definitely have my own thoughts on the value of those numbers and their evidentiary value. However, the dialogue gets uninteresting when the antics of certain people levy personal attacks and generally behave in a juvenile manner. I quickly become uninterested in the conversation at that point and make a mental note to avoid such a poster in the future.

 

Best Regards,

 

Peter G

 

No one has attacked you. There hasn't been a single personal attack levied against you in this entire thread.

 

Are you so sensitive that you cannot handle being disagreed with, without taking it personally? What is juvenile about disagreeing with someone?

 

Mysterio is absolutely correct. You made claims you couldn't support, you were challenged, you got mad, and now you've made up scenarios that don't exist to justify yourself.

 

That is the very essence of behaving in a juvenile manner.

 

How unfortunate.

 

I don't take your false accusation personally, Peter G. I hope you that you can learn to be challenged without taking things personally, too.

 

I simply don't think your interested in discussing this topic in a serious manner. I think you are more interested in taking cheap shots at others to score a point.

 

Perhaps, you simply don't have manners and this is how you talk to people in real life. I honestly don't know why you act the way you do but I don't like it.

[Hamlet]

There have only been a handful of such books: Thor #337, Spiderman #252, Superman #50, Robin #1, Ghost Rider (1990) #1, ASM #361.

 

I remember X-men 268 being a minor version of this. I'm not sure it came out of nowhere, but when I saw that cover on the stands I knew it was going to be hot. My local comic shop ran out the day it came out, so I went to a couple of mall bookstores that carried comics like BDalton and bought up their copies.

 

My memory is fuzzy, but I remember it being a $5-$10 book pretty quickly afterword.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Mysterio,

 

There is a way to communicate with people properly even though we all hide behind computer screens. If a poster is interested in having a serious dialogue on a subject then I am interested in discovering the truth, wherever the truth lies.

 

Your posts to this point have put that statement to a reasonable doubt, because the truth has been discovered to a fair degree, but you reject it because it doesn't line up with your memories. You aren't looking for the truth, but rather to have your memories vindicated. Is that not so?

 

And you are no doubt offended that I say that openly.

 

I do not say that to offend, nor with malice, but you will be offended nonetheless, I suspect, because I speak openly of it.

 

But that is not what is going on here. There is somebody that is questioning reasoning skills and making assessment of credibility and mocking others that disagree. I will be no part of such behavior. I bow out, not because I don't have thoughts on the subject but merely because I don't condone such behavior. Perhaps the poster is young and does not know better. I do not know the answer. There are some good people on this here board. And there are others that I have learned to avoid.

 

Best,

 

Peter G

 

What you are suggesting, Peter G, is that no one challenge what you have to say, except in a manner which you deem acceptable.

 

You find a frank and honest discussion of the situation to be offensive. It is the essence of political correctness.

 

No one has been mocked, and there is nothing wrong with talking about making credibility assessments, because people make those assessments with just about every post they read, whether they acknowledge it or not.

 

"I don't agree with that, and Poster X is a jerk, so he's wrong!"

 

"I don't agree with that, but I really respect Poster Y, so he might be right."

 

That happens all the time, every day, mostly on a sub-conscious level.

 

It is a waste of time to get angry at someone because they say what everyone else is thinking.

 

But I do appreciate being called young. At 43, I'm still younger than Park.

 

[revat]

There have only been a handful of such books: Thor #337, Spiderman #252, Superman #50, Robin #1, Ghost Rider (1990) #1, ASM #361.

 

I remember X-men 268 being a minor version of this. I'm not sure it came out of nowhere, but when I saw that cover on the stands I knew it was going to be hot. My local comic shop ran out the day it came out, so I went to a couple of mall bookstores that carried comics like BDalton and bought up their copies.

 

My memory is fuzzy, but I remember it being a $5-$10 book pretty quickly afterword.

 

but not soooo sold out that they made a second print immediately (not counting the JCPenny reprint)

 

but yes it was popular and selling for more soon thereafter.

[RockMyAmadeus]

There have only been a handful of such books: Thor #337, Spiderman #252, Superman #50, Robin #1, Ghost Rider (1990) #1, ASM #361.

 

I remember X-men 268 being a minor version of this. I'm not sure it came out of nowhere, but when I saw that cover on the stands I knew it was going to be hot. My local comic shop ran out the day it came out, so I went to a couple of mall bookstores that carried comics like BDalton and bought up their copies.

 

My memory is fuzzy, but I remember it being a $5-$10 book pretty quickly afterword.

 

It was....it was an odd book, and behaved a little strangely, sort of in the nebulous zone of just about, but not quite, worth selling/trading.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Mysterio,

 

I definitely have my own thoughts on the value of those numbers and their evidentiary value. However, the dialogue gets uninteresting when the antics of certain people levy personal attacks and generally behave in a juvenile manner. I quickly become uninterested in the conversation at that point and make a mental note to avoid such a poster in the future.

 

Best Regards,

 

Peter G

 

No one has attacked you. There hasn't been a single personal attack levied against you in this entire thread.

 

Are you so sensitive that you cannot handle being disagreed with, without taking it personally? What is juvenile about disagreeing with someone?

 

Mysterio is absolutely correct. You made claims you couldn't support, you were challenged, you got mad, and now you've made up scenarios that don't exist to justify yourself.

 

That is the very essence of behaving in a juvenile manner.

 

How unfortunate.

 

I don't take your false accusation personally, Peter G. I hope you that you can learn to be challenged without taking things personally, too.

 

I simply don't think your interested in discussing this topic in a serious manner.

 

Do you really imagine that I would take the time to go dig up myriad pieces of information, including looking up, photographing, and uploading pictures from an old issue of Previews, if I wasn't interested in discussing this topic in a serious manner...?

 

Do you really believe that...?

 

I think you are more interested in taking cheap shots at others to score a point.

 

What "cheap shots" have been taken? Can you answer that? Will you answer that?

 

No, of course not, because, despite your claim, you're really not interested in the truth, so much as not being offended.

 

Again...I don't say that with malice or anger.

 

Perhaps, you simply don't have manners and this is how you talk to people in real life. I honestly don't know why you act the way you do but I don't like it.

 

You have made this personal, because you have taken it personally.

 

When you take a conversation personally that isn't meant personally, you lose, every time, and so does everyone else.

 

I highly, HIGHLY encourage you to not take these discussions personally.

[Peter G]

 

Mysterio,

 

I definitely have my own thoughts on the value of those numbers and their evidentiary value. However, the dialogue gets uninteresting when the antics of certain people levy personal attacks and generally behave in a juvenile manner. I quickly become uninterested in the conversation at that point and make a mental note to avoid such a poster in the future.

 

Best Regards,

 

Peter G

 

No one has attacked you. There hasn't been a single personal attack levied against you in this entire thread.

 

Are you so sensitive that you cannot handle being disagreed with, without taking it personally? What is juvenile about disagreeing with someone?

 

Mysterio is absolutely correct. You made claims you couldn't support, you were challenged, you got mad, and now you've made up scenarios that don't exist to justify yourself.

 

That is the very essence of behaving in a juvenile manner.

 

How unfortunate.

 

I don't take your false accusation personally, Peter G. I hope you that you can learn to be challenged without taking things personally, too.

 

I simply don't think your interested in discussing this topic in a serious manner.

 

Do you really imagine that I would take the time to go dig up myriad pieces of information, including looking up, photographing, and uploading pictures from an old issue of Previews, if I wasn't interested in discussing this topic in a serious manner...?

 

Do you really believe that...?

 

I think you are more interested in taking cheap shots at others to score a point.

 

What "cheap shots" have been taken? Can you answer that? Will you answer that?

 

No, of course not, because, despite your claim, you're really not interested in the truth, so much as not being offended.

 

Again...I don't say that with malice or anger.

 

Perhaps, you simply don't have manners and this is how you talk to people in real life. I honestly don't know why you act the way you do but I don't like it.

 

You have made this personal, because you have taken it personally.

 

When you take a conversation personally that isn't meant personally, you lose, every time, and so does everyone else.

 

I highly, HIGHLY encourage you to not take these discussions personally.

 

I don't doubt that you are discussing the subject seriously. I sincerely respected that you dug up the Previews. It was also cool to see after all these years.

 

What I don't like is how you talk to people here. And its not because I am thin skinned. I just find that you act rude. When i say your not interested in having a serious conversation, I mean you don't need to score cheap points by taking it to a personal level, which you did several times, and not just with me, but other posters too.

[Peter G]

 

Mysterio,

 

There is a way to communicate with people properly even though we all hide behind computer screens. If a poster is interested in having a serious dialogue on a subject then I am interested in discovering the truth, wherever the truth lies.

 

Your posts to this point have put that statement to a reasonable doubt, because the truth has been discovered to a fair degree, but you reject it because it doesn't line up with your memories. You aren't looking for the truth, but rather to have your memories vindicated. Is that not so?

 

And you are no doubt offended that I say that openly.

 

I do not say that to offend, nor with malice, but you will be offended nonetheless, I suspect, because I speak openly of it.

 

But that is not what is going on here. There is somebody that is questioning reasoning skills and making assessment of credibility and mocking others that disagree. I will be no part of such behavior. I bow out, not because I don't have thoughts on the subject but merely because I don't condone such behavior. Perhaps the poster is young and does not know better. I do not know the answer. There are some good people on this here board. And there are others that I have learned to avoid.

 

Best,

 

Peter G

 

What you are suggesting, Peter G, is that no one challenge what you have to say, except in a manner which you deem acceptable.

 

You find a frank and honest discussion of the situation to be offensive. It is the essence of political correctness.

 

No one has been mocked, and there is nothing wrong with talking about making credibility assessments, because people make those assessments with just about every post they read, whether they acknowledge it or not.

 

"I don't agree with that, and Poster X is a jerk, so he's wrong!"

 

"I don't agree with that, but I really respect Poster Y, so he might be right."

 

That happens all the time, every day, mostly on a sub-conscious level.

 

It is a waste of time to get angry at someone because they say what everyone else is thinking.

 

But I do appreciate being called young. At 43, I'm still younger than Park.

 

 

Who's Park ?

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

What I don't like is how you talk to people here. And its not because I am thin skinned. I just find that you act rude. When i say your not interested in having a serious conversation, I mean you don't need to score cheap points by taking it to a personal level, which you did several times, and not just with me, but other posters too.

 

Example?

[porcupine48]

Oooooh,what did i stumble on here?

 

[Peter G]

 

What I don't like is how you talk to people here. And its not because I am thin skinned. I just find that you act rude. When i say your not interested in having a serious conversation, I mean you don't need to score cheap points by taking it to a personal level, which you did several times, and not just with me, but other posters too.

 

Example?

 

I think this conversation should be discussed in private or not at all.