Amazing Spider-Man 361 Print Run

[scooter99]

Keg party at Scooter's house. Beer and steak sandwiches are served. Medium rare ribeyes. YUM!

 

You're welcome

[porcupine48]

Oooooh,what did i stumble on here?

 

 

You keep out of it, trouble maker

Puts hands in pocket,kicks dirt with toe of shoe as walks away....sigh...

[porcupine48]

Me and my brother had over 20 copies of ASM 361 at release point, and we were teenagers. I can only imagine what those with true disposable income amassed back then. To try to sit here and claim that people didn't hoard books in the 90's is highly subjective. My cousin and many others use to pick off Byrne X-Men, Miller Daredevil by the dozens in the late 70's, early 80's.

 

The spawn of Venom was a big deal from day one. Once that book hit the stands and people saw the cover it was a snapped up by everyone in bulk. There is no way to know if they were going to resell them in a week or in 20+ years.

 

My brother, BrianR, posted in this thread that he hoarded them (and he did) and I did as well. And I didn't even collect ASM and I have 5 copies in my collection. Hoarding was definitely underway in the early 90s. My recollection is ASM 361 was a hoarded book.

I think I still have ten..maybe more.

[Gatsby77]

Me and my brother had over 20 copies of ASM 361 at release point, and we were teenagers. I can only imagine what those with true disposable income amassed back then. To try to sit here and claim that people didn't hoard books in the 90's is highly subjective. My cousin and many others use to pick off Byrne X-Men, Miller Daredevil by the dozens in the late 70's, early 80's.

 

The spawn of Venom was a big deal from day one. Once that book hit the stands and people saw the cover it was a snapped up by everyone in bulk. There is no way to know if they were going to resell them in a week or in 20+ years.

 

My brother, BrianR, posted in this thread that he hoarded them (and he did) and I did as well. And I didn't even collect ASM and I have 5 copies in my collection. Hoarding was definitely underway in the early 90s. My recollection is ASM 361 was a hoarded book.

I think I still have ten..maybe more.

 

STOP LYING!!

 

RMA's exhaustive analysis of the available comparative print run data clearly shows that

 

1) your memory (and mine, and everyone else's) is "notoriously faulty" and,

2) that even if we WERE telling the truth about recognizing & buying this book on speculation we would have sold it when it skyrocketed to $10.

 

[bababooey]

 

[Petey's Wheatcake]

 

 

We need a bigger thread.

[porcupine48]

Me and my brother had over 20 copies of ASM 361 at release point, and we were teenagers. I can only imagine what those with true disposable income amassed back then. To try to sit here and claim that people didn't hoard books in the 90's is highly subjective. My cousin and many others use to pick off Byrne X-Men, Miller Daredevil by the dozens in the late 70's, early 80's.

 

The spawn of Venom was a big deal from day one. Once that book hit the stands and people saw the cover it was a snapped up by everyone in bulk. There is no way to know if they were going to resell them in a week or in 20+ years.

 

My brother, BrianR, posted in this thread that he hoarded them (and he did) and I did as well. And I didn't even collect ASM and I have 5 copies in my collection. Hoarding was definitely underway in the early 90s. My recollection is ASM 361 was a hoarded book.

I think I still have ten..maybe more.

 

STOP LYING!!

 

RMA's exhaustive analysis of the available comparative print run data clearly shows that

 

1) your memory (and mine, and everyone else's) is "notoriously faulty" and,

2) that even if we WERE telling the truth about recognizing & buying this book on speculation we would have sold it when it skyrocketed to $10.

RMA knows im the exception to the rule...I rarely lie and never sell comics..well i did trade one of my 361s to a friend...

[porcupine48]

..and I worked in a comic shop back then,so ive multiples of tonnes of books from that era..PWJ 6,glow in the dark ghost rider,covers I liked.

I also packed everything up and forgot about it from like 92 to 08...

[RockMyAmadeus]

I think this conversation should be discussed in private or not at all.

 

I extended an invitation to try to resolve this privately. You declined.

 

That was in invitation...? I wasn't aware that I declined. My PM box has no new PMs in it. You're perfectly welcome to PM me. I have no issue with you to resolve, so I believe the onus is on you, no...?

 

Leave it alone now. There is nothing more to say.

 

Let's hope you will honor your statement.

 

 

passive aggressive much? .

 

 

Not at all. If you read "P/A", you're reading it wrong. That's about as straightforward as it gets.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Are you really trying to argue Venom wasn't a popular character by the time ASM 361 came out?

 

No.

 

Glad I could answer that for you.

 

Or are we about to see an argument about the difference between popular and ultra-popular?

 

Obviously....without the need to go into hand wringing....what constitutes "popular" and "ultra-popular" is nearly impossible to nail down.

 

However...

 

That doesn't mean we can't make reasonable estimations, based on what we know about the time period.

 

Was Venom a "popular" character when ASM #361 was solicited? Again...that's hard to say. What does "popular" mean? Obviously, the character connected on some level. But it is IMPERATIVE to remember that it isn't always what we see, but what we do NOT see, that tells the whole story.

 

And what we saw in 1991, just prior to ASM #361, was that the Punisher was the king of popularity, in terms of single characters, with Wolvie not far behind.

 

As I said before: the Punisher appeared in 67 different comic books in 1991.

 

Venom appeared in NINE.

 

So.

 

Was Venom popular?

 

Sure.

 

Was Venom a superstar?

 

Clearly NO.

 

Would he BECOME a superstar?

 

Absolutely!

 

But his time was not yet, by the time of ASM #361. As I said before, ASM #361-363 was a great part in propelling Venom to superstardom.

 

And you don't need to take my word for it: the numbers at Cap City bear it out.

 

The last time Venom appeared, in 346-347, the numbers were just about average, before and after. And, Larsen's deliberate game playing with the character did not help matters at all.

 

The time before that, #332-333 were also average. In fact, to highlight my point, the numbers for #330-331, featuring the Punisher, were SUBSTANTIALLY higher than #332-333.

 

When I have time, I'll post those numbers.

 

Marvel purposely tapped into the popularity of Venom with Carnage. To think otherwise is just

 

No one "thinks otherwise", and there's no need to be dismissive.

 

The situation, as I have just explained, wasn't nearly as black and white as you're trying to make it.

 

[porcupine48]

And last month I gave away a second print of Silver Surfer #50 second print...i still miss it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Because like many have already stated in here, they bought alot of copies and held them. Thus, even if unintentionally, they became hoarders. Everyone in that period was buying multiple issues. It wasn't because they had the motivation to sell right away. No, the mentality at the time was buy 10 copies now and put your kids through college later. This was much of what led to the big crash.

 

To act like there was not hoarding going on with ASM 361 or any book back in that time period is naïve. Especially a book with that large of a print run. But maybe being a teenager during that time period would not allow oneself to make the proper judgment.

 

 

This.

 

I still have my original owner copies of ASM 361, Man of Steel 18, X-Men 266, New Mutants 98, etc. Unslabbed, no desire to cash in & sell, even 20+ years later.

 

If a book skyrocketed in the first 60 days, we thought "cool -- I'll be rich in 20 years" not "let me sell out now at its peak."

 

As someone who is just now starting to sell his collection (and apparently being one of RMA's "stupid" people)

 

That is incorrect.

 

I 100% agree with this. I was buying comics for my collection. I love owning the "hot" books just like today people like owning the "hot" books. I never imagined I would sell them, but here I am, 35 years later doing just that.

 

Then you did not understand the point I am making. That's not an insult...you just don't understand it.

 

If you want to be offended at something that doesn't even apply to you, and internalize a comment that I specifically said did not include those doing what you say you did, that's your choice.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

We may have to agree to disagree on the whole first appearance thing, because I never would have invested hundreds of dollars in a pre-order of a third appearance, and I think the gap between first and second appearances was usually much wider than what you are suggesting.

 

Yes, back in the day books like Power Man and Iron Fist #66, or even Spectacular Spidey #116 sold well, but at nowhere near the levels of an Iron Fist #14. Firsts were still the most important thing in comics at the time. Heck, the first Silver Age Penguin and Catwoman were about to catch fire in the summer of 1992.

 

Those weren't first appearances. They were just the earliest available books that could easily be collected. "First Silver Age" was, of course, a marketing ploy more than anything else.

 

Even movie speculation was alive and well. Maybe collecting habits weren't as different 23 years ago as we sometimes think?

 

No. They were radically different. The behavior of the market bears this out.

 

"Hot artists" are a thing of the past (quick...name the last new "hot artist", whose work became as renowned as McFarlane, Byrne, Miller, Adams, Jim Lee, and even Rob Liefeld.) Yes, sure, that's not an absolute statement...but name the last artist whose work went up in value just because it was their work. Whilce Portacio?

 

"First appearances" are all the rage, while "later appearances" are nearly worthless. The gap between first and second appearances has grown to a chasm, in many cases.

 

And movie speculation wasn't at ALL like it is now. Batman didn't enjoy a huge uptick in popularity when the film was "announced." That happened when the film came out, in June of 1989. Yes, the "first SA appearance of such and such" DID have an impact...AFTER those films came out. And the only superhero films of the time period was Batman (not counting the terrible straight to video, or never released, botches.)

 

Anyway, I think the reason #363 sold more copies is because stores upped their orders to meet the demand generated by #361, but not because individual investors saw a future for the book.

 

Of course. It was purely reactionary, as I said before. But again....back in the early 90's, there was a huge demand for popular characters appearing anywhere, not just their first appearances.

 

Spectacular Spiderman #69-70, #81-83, #85, #116, #119, ASM #134-135, #161-162, #174-175, #201-202, #239, #244-245, #249-251, #259-261, #275, Captain America #241, Hulk #340, PWJ #6-7, Wolverine #10, What If (vol 1) #31...the list goes on and on. NONE of those books were first appearances, but they were all sought after, because they contained appearances by "the latest hot characters."

 

Nobody, but NOBODY, characterized ASM #363 as the "third appearance" of Carnage...it was simply the last issue in his introduction story, and it was a Carnage and Venom appearance. That was what mattered.

 

Now, ASM #129, #238, Spectacular Spiderman #64, Hulk #181 (not even #180 or #182!)...THESE are the books that everyone wants, and second appearances...? Forget it. Junk. ASM #238 is a $500-$600 book in 9.8....#239? The last 9.8 sold for $65!

 

And forget about #244-245 and the other appearances. Nobody cares. But in 1991, when ASM #238 was a $35 in the OPG...#239 was $18, or about half, which was pretty reasonable. And....#285, with that classic Zeck Punisher cover, was $15...while #252, a first appearance, was $10!

 

No, the market is radically, wildly different now than it was in the early 90's. Not complaining...just pointing it out. Frankly, it's hard to understand it at times.

 

Intelligent investors were not purchasing cases of #363, or #375. There was not enough upside. These issues were going to sell in stores, but not as wall books.

 

"Intelligent investors"? In the COMICS market...? In 1992??

 

 

The fact is, however, that many "investors" DID buy cases of #363 and #375, because they didn't want to miss out. And that urgency, that sense of "I can't miss the next hot thing!" was what fueled the madness of those days.

 

I cannot tell you how many times the phrase "this is GUARANTEED to go up in price!" was said. I, in my 18 year old brashness, corrected the clerk at Halley's Comics (Pleasanton location) when they were touting....in the summer/fall of 1990, mind you, when Batman was seriously starting to cool...that "Death in the Family" would "never go down in price"...despite doing just that in the latest Update, a fact I pointed out, and the clerk got pissy with me.

 

I knew it was wildly_fanciful_statement then, too.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Me and my brother had over 20 copies of ASM 361 at release point, and we were teenagers. I can only imagine what those with true disposable income amassed back then. To try to sit here and claim that people didn't hoard books in the 90's is highly subjective. My cousin and many others use to pick off Byrne X-Men, Miller Daredevil by the dozens in the late 70's, early 80's.

 

The spawn of Venom was a big deal from day one. Once that book hit the stands and people saw the cover it was a snapped up by everyone in bulk. There is no way to know if they were going to resell them in a week or in 20+ years.

 

My brother, BrianR, posted in this thread that he hoarded them (and he did) and I did as well. And I didn't even collect ASM and I have 5 copies in my collection. Hoarding was definitely underway in the early 90s. My recollection is ASM 361 was a hoarded book.

I think I still have ten..maybe more.

 

STOP LYING!!

 

RMA's exhaustive analysis of the available comparative print run data clearly shows that

 

1) your memory (and mine, and everyone else's) is "notoriously faulty" and,

 

When memories conflict with data, which has to go?

 

Don't be pissy, Gatsby, use your brain. You're not stupid, so why resort to silly nonsense?

 

2) that even if we WERE telling the truth about recognizing & buying this book on speculation we would have sold it when it skyrocketed to $10.

 

Not what I said. And still not correct.

 

One more time: IF...and that's a big IF...you (the generic you, not YOU, Gatsby77) somehow knew that ASM #361 was going to be a "big hit" (and the order numbers show this wasn't the case), and you bought multiple copies as an INVESTMENT (that is, to FLIP)...then holding on to them AFTER they went up so rapidly in price DEFEATED the purpose of buying those multiples in the first place.

 

No one said people weren't speculating. They were. But there wasn't any special speculation about this book in particular, which is precisely WHY it went up in value so quickly: there wasn't enough supply to meet the demand.

 

This is Econ 101, here.

 

Again....will you acknowledge your mistake about the price of #359 and #360, or just ignore it and pretend it didn't happen? Why am I the one who gets silly, pissy sarcasm thrown my way, and told I "never admit I'm wrong", when it's usually the ones making that accusation that are most guilty of it...?

 

Interesting, no...?

 

[rjrjr]

Because like many have already stated in here, they bought alot of copies and held them. Thus, even if unintentionally, they became hoarders. Everyone in that period was buying multiple issues. It wasn't because they had the motivation to sell right away. No, the mentality at the time was buy 10 copies now and put your kids through college later. This was much of what led to the big crash.

 

To act like there was not hoarding going on with ASM 361 or any book back in that time period is naïve. Especially a book with that large of a print run. But maybe being a teenager during that time period would not allow oneself to make the proper judgment.

 

 

This.

 

I still have my original owner copies of ASM 361, Man of Steel 18, X-Men 266, New Mutants 98, etc. Unslabbed, no desire to cash in & sell, even 20+ years later.

 

If a book skyrocketed in the first 60 days, we thought "cool -- I'll be rich in 20 years" not "let me sell out now at its peak."

 

As someone who is just now starting to sell his collection (and apparently being one of RMA's "stupid" people)

 

That is incorrect.

 

I 100% agree with this. I was buying comics for my collection. I love owning the "hot" books just like today people like owning the "hot" books. I never imagined I would sell them, but here I am, 35 years later doing just that.

 

Then you did not understand the point I am making. That's not an insult...you just don't understand it.

 

If you want to be offended at something that doesn't even apply to you, and internalize a comment that I specifically said did not include those doing what you say you did, that's your choice.

 

I am not offended at all. Just amused at your arguing skills.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

..and I worked in a comic shop back then,so ive multiples of tonnes of books from that era..PWJ 6,glow in the dark ghost rider,covers I liked.

I also packed everything up and forgot about it from like 92 to 08...

 

Ghost Rider #15...

[RockMyAmadeus]

Because like many have already stated in here, they bought alot of copies and held them. Thus, even if unintentionally, they became hoarders. Everyone in that period was buying multiple issues. It wasn't because they had the motivation to sell right away. No, the mentality at the time was buy 10 copies now and put your kids through college later. This was much of what led to the big crash.

 

To act like there was not hoarding going on with ASM 361 or any book back in that time period is naïve. Especially a book with that large of a print run. But maybe being a teenager during that time period would not allow oneself to make the proper judgment.

 

 

This.

 

I still have my original owner copies of ASM 361, Man of Steel 18, X-Men 266, New Mutants 98, etc. Unslabbed, no desire to cash in & sell, even 20+ years later.

 

If a book skyrocketed in the first 60 days, we thought "cool -- I'll be rich in 20 years" not "let me sell out now at its peak."

 

As someone who is just now starting to sell his collection (and apparently being one of RMA's "stupid" people)

 

That is incorrect.

 

I 100% agree with this. I was buying comics for my collection. I love owning the "hot" books just like today people like owning the "hot" books. I never imagined I would sell them, but here I am, 35 years later doing just that.

 

Then you did not understand the point I am making. That's not an insult...you just don't understand it.

 

If you want to be offended at something that doesn't even apply to you, and internalize a comment that I specifically said did not include those doing what you say you did, that's your choice.

 

I am not offended at all. Just amused at your arguing skills.

 

 

Let me quote you again: "And apparently being one of RMA's "stupid" people."

 

....but you're not offended.

 

Uh huh.

[rjrjr]

Because like many have already stated in here, they bought alot of copies and held them. Thus, even if unintentionally, they became hoarders. Everyone in that period was buying multiple issues. It wasn't because they had the motivation to sell right away. No, the mentality at the time was buy 10 copies now and put your kids through college later. This was much of what led to the big crash.

 

To act like there was not hoarding going on with ASM 361 or any book back in that time period is naïve. Especially a book with that large of a print run. But maybe being a teenager during that time period would not allow oneself to make the proper judgment.

 

 

This.

 

I still have my original owner copies of ASM 361, Man of Steel 18, X-Men 266, New Mutants 98, etc. Unslabbed, no desire to cash in & sell, even 20+ years later.

 

If a book skyrocketed in the first 60 days, we thought "cool -- I'll be rich in 20 years" not "let me sell out now at its peak."

 

As someone who is just now starting to sell his collection (and apparently being one of RMA's "stupid" people)

 

That is incorrect.

 

I 100% agree with this. I was buying comics for my collection. I love owning the "hot" books just like today people like owning the "hot" books. I never imagined I would sell them, but here I am, 35 years later doing just that.

 

Then you did not understand the point I am making. That's not an insult...you just don't understand it.

 

If you want to be offended at something that doesn't even apply to you, and internalize a comment that I specifically said did not include those doing what you say you did, that's your choice.

 

I am not offended at all. Just amused at your arguing skills.

 

 

Let me quote you again: "And apparently being one of RMA's "stupid" people."

 

....but you're not offended.

 

Uh huh.

 

Again, amused, not offended. But let's not take my word for how I feel about it. We should argue about how I feel now.

[porcupine48]

..and I worked in a comic shop back then,so ive multiples of tonnes of books from that era..PWJ 6,glow in the dark ghost rider,covers I liked.

I also packed everything up and forgot about it from like 92 to 08...

 

Ghost Rider #15...

I really loved/love the gold second print.wish i had gotten more,but THEY,for myself,were not that easy to get.

I love all the gold seconds,but,by far.... GR 15.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Because like many have already stated in here, they bought alot of copies and held them. Thus, even if unintentionally, they became hoarders. Everyone in that period was buying multiple issues. It wasn't because they had the motivation to sell right away. No, the mentality at the time was buy 10 copies now and put your kids through college later. This was much of what led to the big crash.

 

To act like there was not hoarding going on with ASM 361 or any book back in that time period is naïve. Especially a book with that large of a print run. But maybe being a teenager during that time period would not allow oneself to make the proper judgment.

 

 

This.

 

I still have my original owner copies of ASM 361, Man of Steel 18, X-Men 266, New Mutants 98, etc. Unslabbed, no desire to cash in & sell, even 20+ years later.

 

If a book skyrocketed in the first 60 days, we thought "cool -- I'll be rich in 20 years" not "let me sell out now at its peak."

 

As someone who is just now starting to sell his collection (and apparently being one of RMA's "stupid" people)

 

That is incorrect.

 

I 100% agree with this. I was buying comics for my collection. I love owning the "hot" books just like today people like owning the "hot" books. I never imagined I would sell them, but here I am, 35 years later doing just that.

 

Then you did not understand the point I am making. That's not an insult...you just don't understand it.

 

If you want to be offended at something that doesn't even apply to you, and internalize a comment that I specifically said did not include those doing what you say you did, that's your choice.

 

I am not offended at all. Just amused at your arguing skills.

 

 

Let me quote you again: "And apparently being one of RMA's "stupid" people."

 

....but you're not offended.

 

Uh huh.

 

Again, amusing, not offending. But let's not take my word for how I feel about it. We should argue about how I feel now.

 

Don't need to know how you feel. I only know what's on the screen. And your comment was a classic "I find this offensive" response. It's really not a big deal, and there was no need to be "amused" by it, because it didn't have anything to do with you.

 

Were you buying multiple copies to flip? And did you then fail to flip them when the market got hot for these books? If not, then you're not one of the people I was referring to.

 

The point was, and remains, this: ASM #361 was distributed far and wide, much moreso than other books of the era, because it rapidly advanced in price. Those who bought multiple copies for "investment purposes" tended to sell them, rather than hoard them, because that, after all, was the whole point: to make money (or "money", in terms of trading.)

 

There is nothing revolutionary about this, and while some people may have held onto them (multiple copies, here) during the entire rise and fall of the book's original popularity, they missed out, and were the exception, rather than the rule.