There's a Restored 9.4 Tec 33 Blowing up on Ebay

[*matterus023*]

This thread had pointed out to me a conflict of interests across the major grading companies when it comes to high grade restored keys. Im just askin how we can have at the same time both grading impartiality as well as conflict of interests ?

Which of the grading companies both restores (in all its manifestations) books and subsequently grades the quality of their own work? Impartial? Conflict of interest? And remember, the customer is always right!

 

You've got a point :-)

[bluechip]

So where does this thread leave us?

 

- The Meyers game changer looks like it has destroyed the Ext (P) books. Not many will be eager to sink big money into this plod category. It has become way to uncertain and the ext category is now way too broad.

 

- this new reality will force CGC once again to reevaluate their plod grafing system. This must come as a response to how the Ext category has been manipulated into new territory.

 

- it is now painfully obvious that the CGC and CBCS are grading books on the basis of different and competing criteria. Thus it becomes evident that the service they both wish to provide (impartiality) is no longer impartial. If their grading was impartial and unbiased they wouldnt be differing?

 

Just my 2 c

 

You're confusing the meaning of impartiality with uniformity

 

''If their grading was impartial and unbiased they wouldnt be differingll?''

 

That makes no sense at all. So you are saying that if two different people have a difference of opinion on a grade of a comic then there is clearly something fishy going on.

 

CGC, CBCS, PGX etc are all allowed to grade how they see fit. You can't argue really that one is right or wrong as it is their own opinion. What you could argue is that say one of them graded consistently within their own system but all of a sudden their 5.0's looked like 8.0's or their 8.0's looked like 5.0's. Then that would be a matter of concern

 

People will make their own decisions when it comes to which company they think grades the most accurately/consistently. Plus the Meyers also showed that when CGC and CBCS had the same comic handed to them it came back as a 9.4 from both companies. So this ''it is now painfully obvious that the CGC and CBCS are grading books on the basis of different and competing criteria''

 

Is it?? I feel not

 

If CGC is grading my restored TOS key according to CGC standards

And CBCS is grading it according to CBCS standards and PGX according to how they see it; then where does that leave the impartiality?

Isnt impartiality the meat'n potatoes of what 'third party' grading is all about?

Just sayin ...

 

You're using "impartiality" as if it means something more akin to "unanimity."

 

 

[rodan57]

If CGC is grading my restored TOS key according to CGC standards

And CBCS is grading it according to CBCS standards and PGX according to how they see it; then where does that leave the impartiality?

Isnt impartiality the meat'n potatoes of what 'third party' grading is all about?

Just sayin ...

 

 

Impartial just means that the grading company does not have any stake in the book as buyer/seller in the particular or as a trader in the market in general.

 

[*matterus023*]

If CGC is grading my restored TOS key according to CGC standards

And CBCS is grading it according to CBCS standards and PGX according to how they see it; then where does that leave the impartiality?

Isnt impartiality the meat'n potatoes of what 'third party' grading is all about?

Just sayin ...

 

 

Impartial just means that the grading company does not have any stake in the book as buyer/seller in the particular or as a trader in the market in general.

 

Inigo Montoya rocks

[Hibou]

I think the suggestion was made that CGC had declined to grade some (many? all?) of these books. An interesting development if true.

 

This is the most interesting piece of information/speculation in this thread.

 

If confirmed it speaks volumes about what is being done and the risks of lending credibility by assigning these books not just a grade, but a very high grade.

 

If you go to logical extremes as some noted, one could chemically wash out a TEC 26 and meticulously recreate a TEC 27, aside for labor costs you've got a 50-100X return.

 

You've destroyed a TEC26 and diluted the value of other restored TEC27's.

 

This is an extreme example, but if so much work is done you can't tell what if anything is original that is a huge problem and opens up the possibility for all manners of terrible things.

 

There are armies of skilled artists in China painting copies of complex masterworks. There was a very good 60 minutes on this.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/art-of-the-forger-60-minutes-profiles-master-of-fake-paintings/

 

The paintings are made for hundreds and sold for low 4 figures because the labor is so cheap.

 

Slippery slope...

 

With the contacts here it could be confirmed whether CGC refused to grade these books and in the interests of the industry and people bidding on these books it should be.

 

 

Thank you for posting that link.

 

This thread has been fun to read and very, very educational. Thank you all and Happy New Year!

 

 

[*matterus023*]

I think the suggestion was made that CGC had declined to grade some (many? all?) of these books. An interesting development if true.

 

This is the most interesting piece of information/speculation in this thread.

 

If confirmed it speaks volumes about what is being done and the risks of lending credibility by assigning these books not just a grade, but a very high grade.

 

If you go to logical extremes as some noted, one could chemically wash out a TEC 26 and meticulously recreate a TEC 27, aside for labor costs you've got a 50-100X return.

 

You've destroyed a TEC26 and diluted the value of other restored TEC27's.

 

This is an extreme example, but if so much work is done you can't tell what if anything is original that is a huge problem and opens up the possibility for all manners of terrible things.

 

There are armies of skilled artists in China painting copies of complex masterworks. There was a very good 60 minutes on this.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/art-of-the-forger-60-minutes-profiles-master-of-fake-paintings/

 

The paintings are made for hundreds and sold for low 4 figures because the labor is so cheap.

 

Slippery slope...

 

With the contacts here it could be confirmed whether CGC refused to grade these books and in the interests of the industry and people bidding on these books it should be.

 

 

Thank you for posting that link.

 

This thread has been fun to read and very, very educational. Thank you all and Happy New Year!

 

 

 

I also think that.......''the suggestion was made that CGC had declined to grade some (many? all?) of these books. An interesting development if true''.........is interesting

 

However it doesn't imo mean.....''If confirmed it speaks volumes about what is being done and the risks of lending credibility by assigning these books not just a grade, but a very high grade.''

 

This would be true if we all agree that whatever cgc says is gospel and their opinions on grading etc is the only voice that should be heard or have any weight. If cgc actually clarify on the boards that infact they won't grade them for certain reasons then that is all well and good but also CBCS could also say well they are wrong, the work is incredible which is why we grade the way we do.

 

I feel it is a real tough one as one could easily say CGC have it in their interest to put the Meyers work down but on the flip you could also say they are right. So even if it does come out it wil still leave the individual left with the answer who do they believe or how it effects their mind set.

 

Plus yes in theory I suppose you could change a 26 to a 27 but every inch of every page........... I feel any company wouldn't give it a grade or even entertain allowing it to stay anywhee except for the bin

 

Ship of Theseus comes to mind

_________________________

[AnkurJ]

Are many of us forgetting the Detective comics 27 that was in a CGC 9.2 Extensive holder, and now resides in a CGC 9.4 Moderate holder? No resto was removed from the book, but it was re-evaluated and maxed out. Restoration techniques have changed substantially from the years of grafting individual pieces of paper. With leafcasting, every defect is easily filled in, and if you so desire, you can color touch over everything to make the book look better than when it hit the newsstand.

 

But calling all restored books frankenbooks when you don't know what has been done to them is not correct if you ask me. Many books are restored in a way to improve their structural integrity and their overall appearance. When I restored my Action 7, I chose not to color touch the leafcasted areas as I didn't feel it was necessary, and the work could be reversed if need be. Adding color touch and blending it into the actual cover makes the work a little harder to undo.

 

Most people who restore do so with the best interest of the book and to preserve it. If people are doing resto for their own financial gain, then yes, they will do everything possible to max out the book, which appears to be the case with these books. However, I do not feel this should define the entire restored book market.

 

 

[rodan57]

But calling all restored books frankenbooks when you don't know what has been done to them is not correct if you ask me. Many books are restored in a way to improve their structural integrity and their overall appearance.

 

 

I think of books that have been badly restored when I read the word, frankenbook.

 

My concern is with the creation of books that so extensively restored that they might merit the term, counterfeit.

[lou_fine]

 

If CGC is grading my restored TOS key according to CGC standards

And CBCS is grading it according to CBCS standards and PGX according to how they see it; then where does that leave the impartiality?

Isnt impartiality the meat'n potatoes of what 'third party' grading is all about?

Just sayin ...

 

You do realize that none of the grading companies have published what their grading standards are.

 

It seems that they feel this information is proprietary knowledge, and as a result, it is not technically possible to compare the actual grading standards between the various grading companies.

[woowoo]

Are many of us forgetting the Detective comics 27 that was in a CGC 9.2 Extensive holder, and now resides in a CGC 9.4 Moderate holder? No resto was removed from the book, but it was re-evaluated and maxed out. Restoration techniques have changed substantially from the years of grafting individual pieces of paper. With leafcasting, every defect is easily filled in, and if you so desire, you can color touch over everything to make the book look better than when it hit the newsstand.

 

But calling all restored books frankenbooks when you don't know what has been done to them is not correct if you ask me. Many books are restored in a way to improve their structural integrity and their overall appearance. When I restored my Action 7, I chose not to color touch the leafcasted areas as I didn't feel it was necessary, and the work could be reversed if need be. Adding color touch and blending it into the actual cover makes the work a little harder to undo.

 

Most people who restore do so with the best interest of the book and to preserve it. If people are doing resto for their own financial gain, then yes, they will do everything possible to max out the book, which appears to be the case with these books. However, I do not feel this should define the entire restored book market.

 

 

 

CGC 9.2 Extensive holder to 9.4 Moderate holder still has me thinking but you are 100% right with the rest of your post ( IMO ) Matt did my Action 10 and did little color that did not match up good but it could be undone easy. I would love unrestored Action 1 to 10 in poor grade but the 1 alone would cost more than the set Restored.

 

 

[lou_fine]

But calling all restored books frankenbooks when you don't know what has been done to them is not correct if you ask me. Many books are restored in a way to improve their structural integrity and their overall appearance.

 

 

I think of books that have been badly restored when I read the word, frankenbook.

 

My concern is with the creation of books that so extensively restored that they might merit the term, counterfeit.

 

Well, from the before and actual pictures which we have been provided with so far, this does not appear to be the case here.

 

They appear to be previously SP or MP restored books in the 8.0 range or so which have now been given that extra bit of juice in order to maximize out their potential to something like a 9.4 or a 9.6, but now as an fully disclosed EP restored book.

 

It seems that some of the posters here are making its sound as though they are taking 0.5 or 1.0 graded books and recreating them into 9.4 or 9.6 books. This does not appear to be what I am seeing here, as far as I can tell so far.

 

 

[woowoo]

But calling all restored books frankenbooks when you don't know what has been done to them is not correct if you ask me. Many books are restored in a way to improve their structural integrity and their overall appearance.

 

 

I think of books that have been badly restored when I read the word, frankenbook.

 

My concern is with the creation of books that so extensively restored that they might merit the term, counterfeit.

 

Well, from the before and actual pictures which we have been provided with so far, this does not appear to be the case here.

 

They appear to be previously SP or MP restored books in the 8.0 range or so which have now been given that extra bit of juice in order to maximize out their potential to something like a 9.4 or a 9.6, but now as an fully disclosed EP restored book.

 

It seems that some of the posters here are making its sound as though they are taking 0.5 or 1.0 graded books and recreating them into 9.4 or 9.6 books. This does not appear to be what I am seeing here, as far as I can tell so far.

 

 

[Gotham Kid]

But calling all restored books frankenbooks when you don't know what has been done to them is not correct if you ask me. Many books are restored in a way to improve their structural integrity and their overall appearance.

 

 

I think of books that have been badly restored when I read the word, frankenbook.

 

My concern is with the creation of books that so extensively restored that they might merit the term, counterfeit.

 

Well, from the before and actual pictures which we have been provided with so far, this does not appear to be the case here.

 

They appear to be previously SP or MP restored books in the 8.0 range or so which have now been given that extra bit of juice in order to maximize out their potential to something like a 9.4 or a 9.6, but now as an fully disclosed EP restored book.

 

It seems that some of the posters here are making its sound as though they are taking 0.5 or 1.0 graded books and recreating them into 9.4 or 9.6 books. This does not appear to be what I am seeing here, as far as I can tell so far.

 

 

[*matterus023*]

Are many of us forgetting the Detective comics 27 that was in a CGC 9.2 Extensive holder, and now resides in a CGC 9.4 Moderate holder? No resto was removed from the book, but it was re-evaluated and maxed out. Restoration techniques have changed substantially from the years of grafting individual pieces of paper. With leafcasting, every defect is easily filled in, and if you so desire, you can color touch over everything to make the book look better than when it hit the newsstand.

 

But calling all restored books frankenbooks when you don't know what has been done to them is not correct if you ask me. Many books are restored in a way to improve their structural integrity and their overall appearance. When I restored my Action 7, I chose not to color touch the leafcasted areas as I didn't feel it was necessary, and the work could be reversed if need be. Adding color touch and blending it into the actual cover makes the work a little harder to undo.

 

Most people who restore do so with the best interest of the book and to preserve it. If people are doing resto for their own financial gain, then yes, they will do everything possible to max out the book, which appears to be the case with these books. However, I do not feel this should define the entire restored book market.

 

 

 

CGC 9.2 Extensive holder to 9.4 Moderate holder still has me thinking but you are 100% right with the rest of your post ( IMO ) Matt did my Action 10 and did little color that did not match up good but it could be undone easy. I would love unrestored Action 1 to 10 in poor grade but the 1 alone would cost more than the set Restored.

 

 

''Matt did my Action 10 and did little color that did not match up good''

 

Now this is in the opinion of the person who posted but....

 

It does make me think that maybe we are all used to a level of restoration that was never truly that amazing and now someone has come along and 'may' be doing incredible work we just can't compute it.

 

I know this will be quoted and many things could be said. Just saying it is possible

 

I vote for a restoration off. Same comic same level done

[woowoo]

Are many of us forgetting the Detective comics 27 that was in a CGC 9.2 Extensive holder, and now resides in a CGC 9.4 Moderate holder? No resto was removed from the book, but it was re-evaluated and maxed out. Restoration techniques have changed substantially from the years of grafting individual pieces of paper. With leafcasting, every defect is easily filled in, and if you so desire, you can color touch over everything to make the book look better than when it hit the newsstand.

 

But calling all restored books frankenbooks when you don't know what has been done to them is not correct if you ask me. Many books are restored in a way to improve their structural integrity and their overall appearance. When I restored my Action 7, I chose not to color touch the leafcasted areas as I didn't feel it was necessary, and the work could be reversed if need be. Adding color touch and blending it into the actual cover makes the work a little harder to undo.

 

Most people who restore do so with the best interest of the book and to preserve it. If people are doing resto for their own financial gain, then yes, they will do everything possible to max out the book, which appears to be the case with these books. However, I do not feel this should define the entire restored book market.

 

 

 

CGC 9.2 Extensive holder to 9.4 Moderate holder still has me thinking but you are 100% right with the rest of your post ( IMO ) Matt did my Action 10 and did little color that did not match up good but it could be undone easy. I would love unrestored Action 1 to 10 in poor grade but the 1 alone would cost more than the set Restored.

 

 

''Matt did my Action 10 and did little color that did not match up good''

Now this is in the opinion of the person who posted but....

 

It does make me think that maybe we are all used to a level of restoration that was never truly that amazing and now someone has come along and 'may' be doing incredible work we just can't compute it.

 

I know this will be quoted and many things could be said. Just saying it is possible

 

I vote for a restoration off. Same comic same level done

 

He did some pages no cover work so it did not have to match that good.

[*matterus023*]

Are many of us forgetting the Detective comics 27 that was in a CGC 9.2 Extensive holder, and now resides in a CGC 9.4 Moderate holder? No resto was removed from the book, but it was re-evaluated and maxed out. Restoration techniques have changed substantially from the years of grafting individual pieces of paper. With leafcasting, every defect is easily filled in, and if you so desire, you can color touch over everything to make the book look better than when it hit the newsstand.

 

But calling all restored books frankenbooks when you don't know what has been done to them is not correct if you ask me. Many books are restored in a way to improve their structural integrity and their overall appearance. When I restored my Action 7, I chose not to color touch the leafcasted areas as I didn't feel it was necessary, and the work could be reversed if need be. Adding color touch and blending it into the actual cover makes the work a little harder to undo.

 

Most people who restore do so with the best interest of the book and to preserve it. If people are doing resto for their own financial gain, then yes, they will do everything possible to max out the book, which appears to be the case with these books. However, I do not feel this should define the entire restored book market.

 

 

 

CGC 9.2 Extensive holder to 9.4 Moderate holder still has me thinking but you are 100% right with the rest of your post ( IMO ) Matt did my Action 10 and did little color that did not match up good but it could be undone easy. I would love unrestored Action 1 to 10 in poor grade but the 1 alone would cost more than the set Restored.

 

 

''Matt did my Action 10 and did little color that did not match up good''

Now this is in the opinion of the person who posted but....

 

It does make me think that maybe we are all used to a level of restoration that was never truly that amazing and now someone has come along and 'may' be doing incredible work we just can't compute it.

 

I know this will be quoted and many things could be said. Just saying it is possible

 

I vote for a restoration off. Same comic same level done

 

He did some pages no cover work so it did not have to match that good.

 

Touche :-)

[woowoo]

Maybe its so incredible you cant compute it.

[Red84]

Are many of us forgetting the Detective comics 27 that was in a CGC 9.2 Extensive holder, and now resides in a CGC 9.4 Moderate holder? No resto was removed from the book, but it was re-evaluated and maxed out. Restoration techniques have changed substantially from the years of grafting individual pieces of paper. With leafcasting, every defect is easily filled in, and if you so desire, you can color touch over everything to make the book look better than when it hit the newsstand.

 

But calling all restored books frankenbooks when you don't know what has been done to them is not correct if you ask me. Many books are restored in a way to improve their structural integrity and their overall appearance. When I restored my Action 7, I chose not to color touch the leafcasted areas as I didn't feel it was necessary, and the work could be reversed if need be. Adding color touch and blending it into the actual cover makes the work a little harder to undo.

 

Most people who restore do so with the best interest of the book and to preserve it. If people are doing resto for their own financial gain, then yes, they will do everything possible to max out the book, which appears to be the case with these books. However, I do not feel this should define the entire restored book market.

 

 

 

CGC 9.2 Extensive holder to 9.4 Moderate holder still has me thinking but you are 100% right with the rest of your post ( IMO ) Matt did my Action 10 and did little color that did not match up good but it could be undone easy. I would love unrestored Action 1 to 10 in poor grade but the 1 alone would cost more than the set Restored.

 

 

''Matt did my Action 10 and did little color that did not match up good''

 

Now this is in the opinion of the person who posted but....

 

It does make me think that maybe we are all used to a level of restoration that was never truly that amazing and now someone has come along and 'may' be doing incredible work we just can't compute it.

 

I know this will be quoted and many things could be said. Just saying it is possible

 

I vote for a restoration off. Same comic same level done

 

What is your deal here? It's like you are running PR for the Meyers. I understood it when they were not posting and you were defending people who were not present. But they are on the boards and can defend themselves. Every post of yours claims to be the objective observer, but you clearly are biased on the subject. Just don't get it

[AnkurJ]

But calling all restored books frankenbooks when you don't know what has been done to them is not correct if you ask me. Many books are restored in a way to improve their structural integrity and their overall appearance.

 

 

I think of books that have been badly restored when I read the word, frankenbook.

 

My concern is with the creation of books that so extensively restored that they might merit the term, counterfeit.

 

Well, from the before and actual pictures which we have been provided with so far, this does not appear to be the case here.

 

They appear to be previously SP or MP restored books in the 8.0 range or so which have now been given that extra bit of juice in order to maximize out their potential to something like a 9.4 or a 9.6, but now as an fully disclosed EP restored book.

 

It seems that some of the posters here are making its sound as though they are taking 0.5 or 1.0 graded books and recreating them into 9.4 or 9.6 books. This does not appear to be what I am seeing here, as far as I can tell so far.

 

 

The book was obviously restored twice. How do you know what it looked like initially? Also with today's work, a 1.5 can be made much higher. A book that is sharp aside from a spine split could easily make it to 9.0 or higher.

[Columbia Comics]

Are many of us forgetting the Detective comics 27 that was in a CGC 9.2 Extensive holder, and now resides in a CGC 9.4 Moderate holder? No resto was removed from the book, but it was re-evaluated and maxed out. Restoration techniques have changed substantially from the years of grafting individual pieces of paper. With leafcasting, every defect is easily filled in, and if you so desire, you can color touch over everything to make the book look better than when it hit the newsstand.

 

But calling all restored books frankenbooks when you don't know what has been done to them is not correct if you ask me. Many books are restored in a way to improve their structural integrity and their overall appearance. When I restored my Action 7, I chose not to color touch the leafcasted areas as I didn't feel it was necessary, and the work could be reversed if need be. Adding color touch and blending it into the actual cover makes the work a little harder to undo.

 

Most people who restore do so with the best interest of the book and to preserve it. If people are doing resto for their own financial gain, then yes, they will do everything possible to max out the book, which appears to be the case with these books. However, I do not feel this should define the entire restored book market.

 

 

 

CGC 9.2 Extensive holder to 9.4 Moderate holder still has me thinking but you are 100% right with the rest of your post ( IMO ) Matt did my Action 10 and did little color that did not match up good but it could be undone easy. I would love unrestored Action 1 to 10 in poor grade but the 1 alone would cost more than the set Restored.

 

 

''Matt did my Action 10 and did little color that did not match up good''

 

Now this is in the opinion of the person who posted but....

 

It does make me think that maybe we are all used to a level of restoration that was never truly that amazing and now someone has come along and 'may' be doing incredible work we just can't compute it.

 

I know this will be quoted and many things could be said. Just saying it is possible

 

I vote for a restoration off. Same comic same level done

 

What is your deal here? It's like you are running PR for the Meyers. I understood it when they were not posting and you were defending people who were not present. But they are on the boards and can defend themselves. Every post of yours claims to be the objective observer, but you clearly are biased on the subject. Just don't get it

 

He's running PR for them Bc he sends them books for them to restore and then sells them.

 

If their work is cast in a negative light, then that could potentially translate into a lower price.

 

Sound about right Gekko?