Bronze Age CGC 9.2. Is it enough?

[october]

Doesn't it bother anyone that pedigrees, Golden Age books and SA keys get a bump in grading? Is that a part of their "standard"? How is that bump determined? How much of a bump is it? Why is this inconsitency, subjectivity and refusal to publish standards acceptable? Why is no one else asking these questions? How can someone objectively say that the crazy multiples paid for a 9.6 over a 9.4 are justified, especially when that grade might change on resub? In my mind this is classic example of a manufactured collectible bubble market...sell 'em if you got 'em.

 

Dude...where the hell have you been? These issues have all been debated and redebated on these boards since the beginning. It's not like no one's asked these questions. The problem is the answers, if given at all, haven't been that forthcoming...

 

Jim

 

Yeah, I know. My paragraph just sounded better with that in it.

 

[greggy]

Doesn't it bother anyone that pedigrees, Golden Age books and SA keys get a bump in grading? Is that a part of their "standard"? How is that bump determined? How much of a bump is it? Why is this inconsitency, subjectivity and refusal to publish standards acceptable? Why is no one else asking these questions? How can someone objectively say that the crazy multiples paid for a 9.6 over a 9.4 are justified, especially when that grade might change on resub? In my mind this is classic example of a manufactured collectible bubble market...sell 'em if you got 'em.

 

Dude...where the hell have you been? These issues have all been debated and redebated on these boards since the beginning. It's not like no one's asked these questions. The problem is the answers, if given at all, haven't been that forthcoming...

 

Jim

 

Yeah, I know. My paragraph just sounded better with that in it.

 

You're #1 troll target for the next week!

[october]

Doesn't it bother anyone that pedigrees, Golden Age books and SA keys get a bump in grading? Is that a part of their "standard"? How is that bump determined? How much of a bump is it? Why is this inconsitency, subjectivity and refusal to publish standards acceptable? Why is no one else asking these questions? How can someone objectively say that the crazy multiples paid for a 9.6 over a 9.4 are justified, especially when that grade might change on resub? In my mind this is classic example of a manufactured collectible bubble market...sell 'em if you got 'em.

 

Dude...where the hell have you been? These issues have all been debated and redebated on these boards since the beginning. It's not like no one's asked these questions. The problem is the answers, if given at all, haven't been that forthcoming...

 

Jim

 

Yeah, I know. My paragraph just sounded better with that in it.

 

You're #1 troll target for the next week!

 

Bring it on, skirt.

 

I like this thread, no hijacking it.

[greggy]

Doesn't it bother anyone that pedigrees, Golden Age books and SA keys get a bump in grading? Is that a part of their "standard"? How is that bump determined? How much of a bump is it? Why is this inconsitency, subjectivity and refusal to publish standards acceptable? Why is no one else asking these questions? How can someone objectively say that the crazy multiples paid for a 9.6 over a 9.4 are justified, especially when that grade might change on resub? In my mind this is classic example of a manufactured collectible bubble market...sell 'em if you got 'em.

 

Dude...where the hell have you been? These issues have all been debated and redebated on these boards since the beginning. It's not like no one's asked these questions. The problem is the answers, if given at all, haven't been that forthcoming...

 

Jim

 

Yeah, I know. My paragraph just sounded better with that in it.

 

You're #1 troll target for the next week!

 

Bring it on, skirt.

 

I like this thread, no hijacking it.

What hijacking?

[BassGMan]

How can someone objectively say that the crazy multiples paid for a 9.6 over a 9.4 are justified, especially when that grade might change on resub? In my mind this is classic example of a manufactured collectible bubble market...sell 'em if you got 'em.

 

Don't know about how it speaks to a potential bubble market, but I strongly concur with your assertion about the wavy distinctions between high grade units like 9.4 and 9.6. With resubmission, I have had books change TWO grading units, and have had a book receive a different colored label. With these experiences in mind, and understanding the human fallability of the subjective grading of comic books, I urge collectors to buy the book, and not the label.

 

I'd be interested in hearing about what the actual changes in grade were and what CGC missed or found regarding resto on your book that changed label colors. I like CGC and respect their ability, but they are human so I do not expect perfection. But in knowing this, I still have a hard time understanding the multiples being paid on a one grade difference above 9.2. Do what you want, but it is just hard for me to understand.

[awe4one]

I like CGC and respect their ability, but they are human so I do not expect perfection.

 

Sure...if these were isolated incidents. But the boards have shown multiple examples to indicate it happens far more than a customer should be comfortable with in a professional grading company.

 

Jim

[sfilosa]

The CGC market is still bullish and people are still enthusiastic about it, but will it last? I don't think that 100x cover for a modern or 2x a 9.4 for a 9.6 are tenable prices in the long run.

 

Most true NM Silver-Age books, sold for 2X guide (or more) long before CGC.

 

Regarding Buy the Book, Not the Label........

 

If I could actually see every book I bought in person, that would be much easier.

 

One of the main reasons I buy books from Heritage, is that if nothing else, I can see the EYE APPEAL of the book. So in that case, I am absolutely buying the book not the label (and I have not bid on many books that were the right grade but didn't have the Look I wanted).

 

Lastly, I do believe pedigrees get a bump but the real reason why is the FRESHNESS of the book. The colors and gloss are usually better then the same book with the same structural defects, that's a non pedigree.

 

I just saw many of the Pacific Coast TOS's, and eventhough they are in slabs, I could literally see the gloss jumping off the books.

[BassGMan]

I like CGC and respect their ability, but they are human so I do not expect perfection.

 

Sure...if these were isolated incidents. But the boards have shown multiple examples to indicate it happens far more than a customer should be comfortable with in a professional grading company.

 

Jim

 

Yes, I agree, and as such with multiple instances I again state that it is hard for me to understand why somebody would pay double the price on a 9.6 (over a 9.4) that could very easily be resubbed and then receive that 9.4 the second time around. Sure it could be bumped up too but overall the risk is too great. Hey, I'm not against taking risks as I've certainly taken more than my fair share, but after doing so I have learned that there is a limit as to how agressive I want to be. I've been burned too many times on too many speculative bets. Again, we all have unique levels of risk and interests so whatever somebody else does with their own comics and cash is fine by me.

[october]

The CGC market is still bullish and people are still enthusiastic about it, but will it last? I don't think that 100x cover for a modern or 2x a 9.4 for a 9.6 are tenable prices in the long run.

 

Most true NM Silver-Age books, sold for 2X guide (or more) long before CGC.

 

Regarding Buy the Book, Not the Label........

 

If I could actually see every book I bought in person, that would be much easier.

 

One of the main reasons I buy books from Heritage, is that if nothing else, I can see the EYE APPEAL of the book. So in that case, I am absolutely buying the book not the label (and I have not bid on many books that were the right grade but didn't have the Look I wanted).

 

Lastly, I do believe pedigrees get a bump but the real reason why is the FRESHNESS of the book. The colors and gloss are usually better then the same book with the same structural defects, that's a non pedigree.

 

I just saw many of the Pacific Coast TOS's, and eventhough they are in slabs, I could literally see the gloss jumping off the books.

 

Nitpick at the specifics if you want, but the fact remains that grading companies do not offer enough reliability in grading or provide enough information on their standards to justify the price gap between similar grades. They just don't. It has been shown time and time again how variable close grades are. How are the multiples justified if these companies are not even close to consistent? The condition gap between a F/VF and a VF- or between a NM- and a NM is not only totally subjective but often illusory.

[Rob]

I think CGC has built a reputation which allows their word to be pretty much gospel when it comes to grading. Everyone agrees it's not perfect, but it's the closest thing to a standard we have in this hobby. So you're not paying for a comic that is an absolute 9.6, but rather a comic that is so nice, it got past 3 graders at CGC with a 9.6 label.

 

If that particular issue has 10 copies in the census at 9.4, but only 1 in 9.6. A fanatic might like saying he has the best graded copy available, and will pay multiples of the 9.4 price. Not my style, but if he's willing to pay it (and in an auction, someone else is willing to pay $5 less, and so on), then that is its real actual value.

 

Collectors have to decide where that cut-off is for them. I own an 8.5 JLA #29, which is the 9th best graded copy in the world. I'll take that all day long! Not worth $500 more to me to have the #1 copy.

[sfilosa]

Nitpick at the specifics if you want, but the fact remains that grading companies do not offer enough reliability in grading or provide enough information on their standards to justify the price gap between similar grades. They just don't. It has been shown time and time again how variable close grades are. How are the multiples justified if these companies are not even close to consistent? The condition gap between a F/VF and a VF- or between a NM- and a NM is not only totally subjective but often illusory.

 

TO YOU, they don't offer enough reliability in grading.

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but you don't seem to be an expensive book collector (from most of the books you post). That's FINE.

 

But for those of us who do (and have in the past) spent hundreds to thousands of dollars on books, CGC provides a VERY VAULABLE service.

 

Do I really believe there is enough difference between 9.2 and 9.4 to justify paying twice as much. NO. But apparently enough other collectors do, and therefore I can either play along, or not play at all.

 

My house has more then doubled in 7 years, yet it's in worse shape then when I bought it. I DIDN'T make it double in price, the NEW BUYERS who didn't have a house where they wanted it, made it increase in value. Just like in comics, it's the collectors who DON'T have what they want, that push the price up, not the ones that already have the books.

 

The bottom line is to most collectors it DOESN'T really matter how much a premium a 9.4 / 9.6, ect. book gets because they ain't buying the book no matter what. They are just arm chair quarterbacking, and tell all of us who do buy high grade, expensive books how much a fool we are.

[october]

Don't take this the wrong way, but you don't seem to be an expensive book collector (from most of the books you post).

 

No offense taken, nothing wrong with calling me what I am. That doesn't mean I won't be a HG collector someday...who knows what new obsessions and manias the future will bring.

 

 

Do I really believe there is enough difference between 9.2 and 9.4 to justify paying twice as much. NO. But apparently enough other collectors do, and therefore I can either play along, or not play at all.

 

Sounds like we agree then.

 

The bottom line is to most collectors it DOESN'T really matter how much a premium a 9.4 / 9.6, ect. book gets because they ain't buying the book no matter what. They are just arm chair quarterbacking, and tell all of us who do buy high grade, expensive books how much a fool we are.

 

Once again, I don't want the issue to be confused. I don't think there is anything wrong or stupid about buying HG. I do disagree that the prices CGC HG books are realizing does not have an effect on the rest of the market. From depressing prices on VF and lower books, to drving people away from the hobby if the HG slabbed BA and MA prices ever crash; HG CGC sales do effect the entire hobby. There is no doubt in my mind that if grading companies were not around, 7.5-9.0 books would be selling for far more than they are now.

 

Personally, I am primarilly a collector. I LIKE the fact that HG slabs divert so much cash away from "lesser" grades. I can buy what I want and get, what I feel, are great deals.

[sfilosa]

Re: Bronze Age CGC 9.2. Is it enough? [Re: sfilosa]

#792378 - Fri Apr 22 2005 07:08 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply

 

 

 

 

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Don't take this the wrong way, but you don't seem to be an expensive book collector (from most of the books you post).

 

 

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No offense taken, nothing wrong with calling me what I am. That doesn't mean I won't be a HG collector someday...who knows what new obsessions and manias the future will bring.

 

 

Quote:

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Do I really believe there is enough difference between 9.2 and 9.4 to justify paying twice as much. NO. But apparently enough other collectors do, and therefore I can either play along, or not play at all.

 

 

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Sounds like we agree then.

 

 

Quote:

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The bottom line is to most collectors it DOESN'T really matter how much a premium a 9.4 / 9.6, ect. book gets because they ain't buying the book no matter what. They are just arm chair quarterbacking, and tell all of us who do buy high grade, expensive books how much a fool we are.

 

 

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Once again, I don't want the issue to be confused. I don't think there is anything wrong or stupid about buying HG. I do disagree that the prices CGC HG books are realizing does not have an effect on the rest of the market. From depressing prices on VF and lower books, to drving people away from the hobby if the HG slabbed BA and MA prices ever crash; HG CGC sales do effect the entire hobby. There is no doubt in my mind that if grading companies were not around, 7.5-9.0 books would be selling for far more than they are now.

 

Personally, I am primarilly a collector. I LIKE the fact that HG slabs divert so much cash away from "lesser" grades. I can buy what I want and get, what I feel, are great deals