Overstreet vs real world 0

[poundofbull]

Does anyone at Overstreet Price Guide even collect comics? I know this a rhetorical question, but how do they actually set book values? I am often amazed at how much more Golden age books go for in the "real world" (online auctions,ebay,cons,these boards,etc) than the guides state their values to be. I know the old "it's worth what someone will pay" adage, but shouldn't real selling prices be closer reflected in the guides? There are enough avenues online to research what "true" book value is that it seems the guide could reflect them better. I know this is circle logic. If the research is there than use it yourself. I just hate when book A list for $300 and FMV is closer to $1500+. All this being said I have loved the Overstreet as a reference for many years and am only hoping it gets better. Steps off soapbox and waits for mudslinging.

[woowoo]

Back in the 80s Bob was a huge Timely collector.

[Robot Man]

I use the Overstreet guide for buying but do my homework when selling.

 

That being said, there is no more informative guide to comics out there (other than the pricing)

[Moondog]

I use the Overstreet guide for buying but do my homework when selling.

 

That being said, there is no more informative guide to comics out there (other than the pricing)

 

[goldust40]

Regardless of how it's used or misused, it's still Overstreet.

[Sqeggs]

Does anyone at Overstreet Price Guide even collect comics? I know this a rhetorical question, but how do they actually set book values? I am often amazed at how much more Golden age books go for in the "real world" (online auctions,ebay,cons,these boards,etc) than the guides state their values to be. I know the old "it's worth what someone will pay" adage, but shouldn't real selling prices be closer reflected in the guides? There are enough avenues online to research what "true" book value is that it seems the guide could reflect them better. I know this is circle logic. If the research is there than use it yourself. I just hate when book A list for $300 and FMV is closer to $1500+. All this being said I have loved the Overstreet as a reference for many years and am only hoping it gets better. Steps off soapbox and waits for mudslinging.

 

It's kind of tough for him to price books that are as thinly traded as most GA books. And his position was always that the guide wasn't meant to reflect a (possibly temporary) run up in a book that suddenly gets hot.

 

That said, I think if you look at a typical HA auction, the guide is often pretty accurate in forecasting the hammer price for GA books plus or minus, say, 10%. Of course, again, a couple of determined bidders can cause a book to soar way above guide and some books have died and current prices have dropped below guide prices.

 

 

[jimjum12]

Does anyone at Overstreet Price Guide even collect comics? I know this a rhetorical question, but how do they actually set book values? I am often amazed at how much more Golden age books go for in the "real world" (online auctions,ebay,cons,these boards,etc) than the guides state their values to be. I know the old "it's worth what someone will pay" adage, but shouldn't real selling prices be closer reflected in the guides? There are enough avenues online to research what "true" book value is that it seems the guide could reflect them better. I know this is circle logic. If the research is there than use it yourself. I just hate when book A list for $300 and FMV is closer to $1500+. All this being said I have loved the Overstreet as a reference for many years and am only hoping it gets better. Steps off soapbox and waits for mudslinging.

 

It's kind of tough for him to price books that are as thinly traded as most GA books. And his position was always that the guide wasn't meant to reflect a (possibly temporary) run up in a book that suddenly gets hot.

 

That said, I think if you look at a typical HA auction, the guide is often pretty accurate in forecasting the hammer price for GA books plus or minus, say, 10%. Of course, again, a couple of determined bidders can cause a book to soar way above guide and some books have died and current prices have dropped below guide prices.

 

 

Yah........ and people tend to focus on the outliers...... GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[kimik]

I use the Overstreet guide for buying but do my homework when selling.

 

That being said, there is no more informative guide to comics out there (other than the pricing)

 

Exactly. Buy at a discount to OSPG and sell at true market value.

[dannyboy]

I love Overstreet as a guide and as a reference for all of the updates written by dealers/collectors. There is so much great information in those books. However, I really don't get why there are some books SO far off in value. If a book goes up by 10x in a year...then reflect that in your price guide. If it drops just as rapidly the next year...then reflect that too. Sometimes it seems they're trying to predict the market vs. just reporting the news. Now if Overstreet isn't worried about market value, rather something else (not sure what that would be), then so be it.

 

I'm halfway thinking a "farthest apart OPG vs. market" thread would be a lot of fun. There are just so many books that are ridiculous in the guide vs. even consistent market that when someone uses OPG as a reference when trying to sell me something I scoff. Even knowing that most of the guide values are pretty decent indications of market, there are enough that are off by a mile that anyone not firmly in touch with book values via shows, etc, should steer clear. GPA, even with it's limited number of transactions, is a much better indicator of market value. Overstreet has it right on 90% of the books...just wondering why they don't adjust their numbers on the others. The others being, of course, the classic books that everyone is interested in.

 

[ThothAmon]

I stopped buying/using the Overstreet guide long ago as GPA, Heritage sales and ebay sales provide a much more accurate reflection of current liquid pricing. Also, I don't believe Overstreet is the pre-eminent reference guide any longer. In addition to the above, there is the CGC Census data, Gerber guides and good old Google. I do miss the market perceptions of the dealers but as they were often talking their own book my own perceptions are probably as accurate!

Edited January 20, 2016 by ThothAmon

[Robot Man]

As far as they are off on many books on the low side, they are way off on many more to the high side. How many people pay guide for average SA books or westerns or funny animals?

 

The title says it all " GUIDE". Nobody (even Overstreet says it is "the gospel") it's a place to start. Most people that know better use it as such.

 

GPA is only good for slabbed books. They don't list prices for raw books which are the most widely bought and sold books in the hobby.

[MusterMark]

The great majority of books (and especially GA) are too thinly traded for there to be enough info on them outside of OSPG, whether it is Overstreet himself trying to do that research or us. So, one CAN SAY that Oh, there is GPA, there is eBay, Heritage, etc, but in reality, most books do NOT have that kind of info just lying around. And thus, often some guess work HAS to be done on the part of the buyer and seller, and on the part of Overstreet also.

 

Further, the great majority of comic book stores I have ever been to (including recently) use OSPG religiously on most if not all their books. (Their grading itself may or may not be questionable, but once they have allocated a grade, they go right to OSPG). And so do many dealers at cons, especially for non-key GA, etc.

 

 

 

[dannyboy]

As far as they are off on many books on the low side, they are way off on many more to the high side. How many people pay guide for average SA books or westerns or funny animals?

 

The title says it all " GUIDE". Nobody (even Overstreet says it is "the gospel") it's a place to start. Most people that know better use it as such.

 

GPA is only good for slabbed books. They don't list prices for raw books which are the most widely bought and sold books in the hobby.

 

They are absolutely off on the high side and low side. No question. All to my point that they need to be adjusted. I think it's a pretty dirty trick to put yourself out as a "guide" and then have some books going for 10 cents on the dollar...or 10 dollars on the cent. Either way - I don't get it. As far as most people knowing that it's not gospel, that may be most comic book collectors but it absolutely isn't most people (like those who just got handed their grandpa's collection.)

 

This may look like a rant against Overstreet but it's not. I love the guide and read it for a number of reasons. I just can't get past, and haven't heard a legitimate reason yet, why they refuse to adjust their "guide" prices on books that they are so far off on.

 

 

[Bomber-Bob]

I just can't get past, and haven't heard a legitimate reason yet, why they refuse to adjust their "guide" prices on books that they are so far off on.

 

 

So those in the know can use the guide to buy keys on the low end and sell common on the high end. The moment someone opens up Overstreet to price a book, you are in trouble. For a guide that comes out once a year, it's really difficult to be accurate. Back in the 90's they published an Overstreet monthly and were able to capture hot books. The emergence of CGC ended all that.

[fifties]

"Back in the day", all we had was Overstreet.

 

Now we have eBay, Heritage closed sales, online dealer pricing, and other sources, so the OSPG is simply one of several tools to be used for determining value. As a general guide, it seems to work fine for most books. For a hot item, however, you would want to use a source closer to current live action, rather than a once a year publication.

[Bookery]

As far as they are off on many books on the low side, they are way off on many more to the high side. How many people pay guide for average SA books or westerns or funny animals?

 

Exactly right. I'm in more of a position to know than most... I spent 2 years putting my own 600-page guide together (for my own buying and selling purposes -- not for re-sale) and update it regularly. OPG may be too low on a number of "key" books, but is way inflated on the vast majority of GA. In fact, the dirty little secret that is seldom talked about is that most GA issues have been gradually falling in value over the years as newer generations have no connection to it.

 

Except for certain highlight issues, the majority of Dell, Fawcett, Quality, Lev Gleason, western, romance, movie tie-in, and other lesser known issues sell for well below OPG, and generally then only if they are marketed as a bargain in comparison to OPG prices (30% off guide, 50% off guide, etc.). I'm talking mainstream grades here... 2.0 to 8.0... as pedigrees and ultra high-grades are a world unto themselves. Even most non-key DC books sell for under guide at present.

 

The dilemma for OPG however, is that many of these comics sell at all only when seen as a "bargain". If OPG lowers a $100 western, say, to a more realistic value of $50... does the new market value immediately fall to $25? Lower it to $25, and is it now $12? It would be difficult for the guide to keep up with the ever-changing prices brought on by the guide's very attempt to come into line with the market.

 

Yet that said, I believe there is more need for published price guides now then ever. EBay is not trustworthy on scarcer books... too much manipulation and also fears that the seller isn't describing the book properly (page count, etc.). Analyzing GPA is a science... one few folks take the time to learn. The "free" online guides are worth what you pay for them. There is still a need for a learned well-thought out guide/guides in the marketplace to properly assess values and trends for those who can't or don't want to take the time. (When I put the pulp guides together years ago, it was a challenge to make sure I didn't over value books because of a few sales that turned out to be the same two guys battling each other for books... once they obtained them, prices again settled back to previous levels).

 

OPG is a wealth of data. No price guide can keep up with certain volatile items in a given short period, but I think if OPG dropped all of the "cover price or less" material out of the guide and concentrated on actual collectible issues (with a larger font that could actually be read), and dropped its fear of showing downward movements, it could rise back to being the primary go-to source it once was.

[rjpb]

The dilemma for OPG however, is that many of these comics sell at all only when seen as a "bargain". If OPG lowers a $100 western, say, to a more realistic value of $50... does the new market value immediately fall to $25? Lower it to $25, and is it now $12? It would be difficult for the guide to keep up with the ever-changing prices brought on by the guide's very attempt to come into line with the market.

 

I recall a similar argument twenty years ago when most mid grade non-key Silver Age was a tough sell at more than 60% of OSPG. That dropping the guide value would just result in everyone still expecting the same discount.

 

The Price Guide has run it's course as a tool for valuing comics. I know for a lot of dealers it's still the baseline for where they price their comics, even if they price them under, but I'm willing to bet just keeping an eye on trends and going with one's gut, along with checking other real world sources when in doubt would result in better pricing, especially with books under $200. For the rest of us, who sell just a few books, take the time to check previous sales and asking prices on the web before using the guide.

 

When I'm bidding on or searching for a book for my collection, I tend to think in terms of what it's worth to me based on similar books I've bought. I haven't checked a price guide in years.

 

 

 

[Bomber-Bob]

I know for a lot of dealers it's still the baseline for where they price their comics.

 

When dealing with slabs, while GPA is still king, Overstreet will be referenced when it is convenient or opportunistic for the seller to quote Overstreet. While this may be fine for books without much sales data, it's a sign of desperation to use Overstreet on books with plenty of data. The 'If I can't justify my price using GPA, I will justify it using Overstreet' is really comical and sad at the same time.

[kazoo]

As far as they are off on many books on the low side, they are way off on many more to the high side. How many people pay guide for average SA books or westerns or funny animals?

 

Exactly right. I'm in more of a position to know than most... I spent 2 years putting my own 600-page guide together (for my own buying and selling purposes -- not for re-sale) and update it regularly. OPG may be too low on a number of "key" books, but is way inflated on the vast majority of GA. In fact, the dirty little secret that is seldom talked about is that most GA issues have been gradually falling in value over the years as newer generations have no connection to it.

 

.... I believe there is more need for published price guides now then ever. ...

 

OPG is a wealth of data. No price guide can keep up with certain volatile items in a given short period, but I think if OPG dropped all of the "cover price or less" material out of the guide and concentrated on actual collectible issues (with a larger font that could actually be read), and dropped its fear of showing downward movements, it could rise back to being the primary go-to source it once was.

 

All great points, Tim. I for one would be interested in buying a copy of your own comics price guide. I've put together a few lists of particular titles of interest, and know how much work it can be. I wish there was a Guide which truly attempted to list the prices older books will sell for. OPG, I believe, gave up on that long ago. I still buy Overstreet almost every year, but it is an eyesore and a disappointment.

 

The OPG really seems to be a relic of the 70s, when Overstreet was actually still active in the hobby, and still reflects his tastes and biases. He apparently hated Crumb and his gang and refused to list them, while attempting to be a sort of complete checklist of the mainstream publishers. As a result, the Guide is unwieldy and has tiny eyestraining print, bloated with redundant listings of worthless drek, while simultaneously ignoring valuable "Underground" comics based on some Puritanical objection to naughty pictures. Remove the drek, and you'd have room for larger print and a truly complete listing of collectible books from all genres. More attention to the Golden Age is a must too, as some titles/issues are selling at multiples of guide and others are tough sells at a fraction of Guide price.

 

The pricing on most older books seems to be an attempt to control and "stabilize" the market rather than an honest reporting of what things sell for. I remember reading an article by Chuck of Mile High where he reported on an Overstreet Advisers meeting where this was actually discussed, there was concern that prices fluctuating would scare off people and kill the market so small and steady increases were decided on as the wisest course. I think the folks involved cared a lot about the comics market and so meant well, but this means the Guide was not really an honest unbiased report. Letting prices drop as well as rise would actually make the book more useful and a trustworthy source of pricing.

 

Another beef is that it seems no attempt has been made to make the book more useful by updating and completing the art credits. Look at pre-code Atlas titles, just as one example, and you will find incomplete and inaccurate info on the artists in the tiny print at the bottom of the listings. In the old days, this type of info was apparently hard to assemble and was volunteered by the Advisers piecemeal. It is really easier today to just go to the Internet for most such info, so why list it in such a half-azzed way? List all the Robert Q. Sale stories in the title or don't list them at all, but saying he has art in #9 and 12 while he actually also has art in 6, 8, and 15-22 also is a disservice disguised as "help".

[Cat-Man_America]

As far as they are off on many books on the low side, they are way off on many more to the high side. How many people pay guide for average SA books or westerns or funny animals?

 

Exactly right. I'm in more of a position to know than most... I spent 2 years putting my own 600-page guide together (for my own buying and selling purposes -- not for re-sale) and update it regularly. OPG may be too low on a number of "key" books, but is way inflated on the vast majority of GA. In fact, the dirty little secret that is seldom talked about is that most GA issues have been gradually falling in value over the years as newer generations have no connection to it.

 

Except for certain highlight issues, the majority of Dell, Fawcett, Quality, Lev Gleason, western, romance, movie tie-in, and other lesser known issues sell for well below OPG, and generally then only if they are marketed as a bargain in comparison to OPG prices (30% off guide, 50% off guide, etc.). I'm talking mainstream grades here... 2.0 to 8.0... as pedigrees and ultra high-grades are a world unto themselves. Even most non-key DC books sell for under guide at present.

 

The dilemma for OPG however, is that many of these comics sell at all only when seen as a "bargain". If OPG lowers a $100 western, say, to a more realistic value of $50... does the new market value immediately fall to $25? Lower it to $25, and is it now $12? It would be difficult for the guide to keep up with the ever-changing prices brought on by the guide's very attempt to come into line with the market.

 

Yet that said, I believe there is more need for published price guides now then ever. EBay is not trustworthy on scarcer books... too much manipulation and also fears that the seller isn't describing the book properly (page count, etc.). Analyzing GPA is a science... one few folks take the time to learn. The "free" online guides are worth what you pay for them. There is still a need for a learned well-thought out guide/guides in the marketplace to properly assess values and trends for those who can't or don't want to take the time. (When I put the pulp guides together years ago, it was a challenge to make sure I didn't over value books because of a few sales that turned out to be the same two guys battling each other for books... once they obtained them, prices again settled back to previous levels).

 

OPG is a wealth of data. No price guide can keep up with certain volatile items in a given short period, but I think if OPG dropped all of the "cover price or less" material out of the guide and concentrated on actual collectible issues (with a larger font that could actually be read), and dropped its fear of showing downward movements, it could rise back to being the primary go-to source it once was.

 

 

This is pretty much how I see the status of the hobby as well. Current market data is sketchy for a lot of GA titles, especially for HG, and annual guides just can't provide useful information that's current and accurate across the board. Still, the OSG is an indispensable tool for marketplace stability due to it's conservative values (pun intended) and the broad spectrum coverage it's annual snapshot of the hobby provides, complete with dealer submitted market reports.

 

It would be nice if there were a one stop solution for market information retrieval, a data mining source for dealers and collectors that could be trusted. GPA sales data attempts to satisfy this need, but falls sadly short because individual sales data is voluntary (to be included it must be submitted to GPA services by buyer or seller and verified). Even the GPA public auction data is incomplete as not all auction houses voluntarily submit the information (viewing their sales information as proprietary).

 

IMO, data availability, or the lack thereof, may ultimately be the biggest risk factor to collector market stability. It foments wild market speculations that extend to conspiratorial concerns. Without a dependable reference source that includes a broad spectrum of public auction and private sales data, dealers are encouraged to cherry-pick the data that is available.

 

Market volatility doesn't stem from unscrupulous dealing practices or clueless collectors, it's a by-product of uncertainty over real world value in a system that's too easy to game. Uncertain pricing and inconsistent sales data exacerbates distrust in a marketplace that falls short of full confidence.

My (snake oil now under $20 a barrel)