Question for Heritage and comiclink reps wrt Burkey admission 2 2

[Funnyslover]

 

G'nite xx

[Terry Doyle]

 

G'nite xxx

 

[drdroom]

Dear Heritage, a valid question has arisen which you might have missed amidst much japery:

 

Stewart Huckaby came on the boards and said unequivocally:

"Heritage absolutely does not allow consignors to bid on their own lots."

 

And yet your Terms and Conditions, Article 15, seems to say that consignor bids are perfectly fine:

"Regardless of the disclosure of his identity, any bid by a consignor or his agent on a lot consigned by him is deemed to be made in “Good Faith.”

 

I imagine all parties would like to have this clarified!

 

 

[drdroom]

...anyone? ...hello?

[Funnyslover]

You might also want to refer them to Condition 9 (3rd sentence) below which provides an alternative wording :

 

http://www.comiclink.com/TermsConditionsBuying.asp

 

G'nite

[drdroom]

Well, as it stands, and despite the public declaration of a Heritage representative, Heritage allows shilling, Comiclink doesn't. For me, that's a big plus for Comiclink.

[suspense39]

Well, as it stands, and despite the public declaration of a Heritage representative, Heritage allows shilling, Comiclink doesn't. For me, that's a big plus for Comiclink.

 

For sure. I also remember a year or so ago one of the employees of comiclink came on this board and made a public declaration that he would be bidding on a grail piece of his that was in one of thier auctions, it was out in the open. Not everyone was happy about it, but it was transparent.

[pinupcartoonguy]

While Heritage may allow consignors to bid on their own auctions, my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that it's only allowed if the consignor intends to WIN the auction. If the intent is to merely drive up the price, then it would still be shilling. A subtle but important distinction.

[Pete Marino]

While Heritage may allow consignors to bid on their own auctions, my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that it's only allowed if the consignor intends to WIN the auction. If the intent is to merely drive up the price, then it would still be shilling. A subtle but important distinction.

 

I think you are reading too literally. If the consignor would legitimately pay for the art with his bid of $y then in their opinion it's not a shill.

 

So it's not that they're in it to win it, more that they can say they'd willingly pay $z to get it back in their collection (including the juice and fees)

[drdroom]

If the consignor wants to win the auction then why'd he put it in the auction in the first place? That doesn't pass the smell test. OBVIOUSLY a consignor bid functions as a secret reserve.

[Changer]

I was curious if any of my prior won lots was consigned by MB, the reply:

 

Thank you for your email. Because all of our consignor information is confidential I would not be able to divulge that information. If there is anything else I can assist you with please let me know and I am happy to help.

Kind regards,

Lauren Campbell | Client Services Representative

HERITAGE AUCTIONS

 

Ok, so bidder beware it is.

 

 

[pinupcartoonguy]

While Heritage may allow consignors to bid on their own auctions, my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that it's only allowed if the consignor intends to WIN the auction. If the intent is to merely drive up the price, then it would still be shilling. A subtle but important distinction.

 

I think you are reading too literally. If the consignor would legitimately pay for the art with his bid of $y then in their opinion it's not a shill.

 

So it's not that they're in it to win it, more that they can say they'd willingly pay $z to get it back in their collection (including the juice and fees)

 

Just because a bidder would be willing to pay for the art, doesn't mean they intended to win.

 

If I place a bid at what I deem fmv, doesn't mean I intend to win the piece--my intent is that the piece achieve at least that amount. After all, don't most consignors hope that the piece goes beyond fmv?

[theflashunc]

So....why not just, yanno, set a reserve?

 

The more that comes out on this, the less this makes sense, at least to my mind.

[drdroom]

So....why not just, yanno, set a reserve?

 

The more that comes out on this, the less this makes sense, at least to my mind.

 

Because a posted reserve is thought to dampen buyer enthusiasm.

[pinupcartoonguy]

I think the seller's premium is higher if you have a reserve.

 

Edited February 5, 2016 by pinupcartoonguy

[Ironmandrd]

While Heritage may allow consignors to bid on their own auctions, my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that it's only allowed if the consignor intends to WIN the auction. If the intent is to merely drive up the price, then it would still be shilling. A subtle but important distinction.

 

I think you are reading too literally. If the consignor would legitimately pay for the art with his bid of $y then in their opinion it's not a shill.

 

So it's not that they're in it to win it, more that they can say they'd willingly pay $z to get it back in their collection (including the juice and fees)

 

Just because a bidder would be willing to pay for the art, doesn't mean they intended to win.

 

If I place a bid at what I deem fmv, doesn't mean I intend to win the piece--my intent is that the piece achieve at least that amount. After all, don't most consignors hope that the piece goes beyond fmv?

 

I think you guys may be more in agreement than it appears you may think. Not cancelling any of their bids and going forward with paying for the auction if the person won would show their bona fide intent that the bid was intended to win the auction (as any bid could be the winning bidder - unless the bidder then cancelled his interim bid or winning bid which would then show he was shilling).

[crassus]

I was curious if any of my prior won lots was consigned by MB, the reply:

 

Thank you for your email. Because all of our consignor information is confidential I would not be able to divulge that information. If there is anything else I can assist you with please let me know and I am happy to help.

Kind regards,

Lauren Campbell | Client Services Representative

HERITAGE AUCTIONS

 

Ok, so bidder beware it is.

 

 

The reply from HA is reasonable enough, most if not all consignors would likely prefer confidentiality. I think that would be less of a problem if HA gave any indication that they took this matter seriously.

 

Realistically, assuming it ever gets on their radar, it would likely be dealt with after the current auction is safely over. They certainly will not revisit policy in the middle of an auction.

[crassus]

So....why not just, yanno, set a reserve?

 

The more that comes out on this, the less this makes sense, at least to my mind.

 

Because a posted reserve is thought to dampen buyer enthusiasm.

 

Absolutely. One other thing to consider is that all auction houses cater first to consignors, as they are the honey that brings the ants. Attracting the best consignors with the best pieces is a higher priority than catering to bidders.

 

My suspicion, is that the contradictory info (no shill/yes shill) is the result of one message to bidders, to give them confidence, and the other message to consigners, to assure them there is no risk in consigning their pieces.

[jbud73]

While Heritage may allow consignors to bid on their own auctions, my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that it's only allowed if the consignor intends to WIN the auction. If the intent is to merely drive up the price, then it would still be shilling. A subtle but important distinction.

 

How do you adjudicate intent. I've read and tried to interpret the clauses as well, and it night be that they allow secret maximum bids by consignors, but not active in the live bidding. You would still be bidding against "the book" and this would still be a defacto soft reserve.

[jbud73]

So....why not just, yanno, set a reserve?

 

The more that comes out on this, the less this makes sense, at least to my mind.

 

Because a posted reserve is thought to dampen buyer enthusiasm.

 

Absolutely. One other thing to consider is that all auction houses cater first to consignors, as they are the honey that brings the ants. Attracting the best consignors with the best pieces is a higher priority than catering to bidders.

 

My suspicion, is that the contradictory info (no shill/yes shill) is the result of one message to bidders, to give them confidence, and the other message to consigners, to assure them there is no risk in consigning their pieces.

 

Yep, from the first post of Mike's where he referenced 'not being allowed to place a reserve by Heritage,' I believed that to mean he could not place reserves on his consignments and receive the most attractive % Heritage was offering - probably a negative, for his total consignment.

Edited February 6, 2016 by jbud73