Bill Sienkiewicz's stolen artwork

[crassus]

I just want to chime in and say I think it wrong that Bill's not completing commissions is somehow equated as equal to this thief who committed a crime.

 

I have gotten stuff from Bill in the mail on more than one occasion, although it takes time. I have also been frustrated with a lack of response from Bill and had others intervene on my behalf, successfully so. But never would I have considered Bill a thief in these situations. I understand those who have given $ and gotten nothing in return may be emotional about it but the situations are apples and oranges.

 

I do not have deep pockets but I think I could buy a few of these outstanding commissions from the dissatisfied customers if they have documentation and I talk to Bill about it this summer. PM me if interested...this is not a promise to buy or a solicitation to buy but just to talk.

 

Is he a troubled artist? I'm not so sure its apples and oranges. Whether you are taking money for apples or for oranges if you take the money you deliver the product. Are you talking about delays, meaning someone waiting longer than they expected but finally getting their product, or are you talking about literally someone paying money for a product they never (ever) receive?

 

The latter is theft, just to be clear.

 

Really? Just being provocative, but maybe they decided to donate the money by giving up? It is not cool, but it is not criminal. Like I said, if you work at it you get your art, If you give up you get nothing.

 

I understand commissions are not like selling comics, where the comic just has to be shipped, but why should someone paying for a commission have to then, in addition, work hard at getting it? Isn't it the artist who is supposed to be hard at work completing it?

 

I think because this is a hobby about art which most people join because its fun, there is this preconception that its not real business, that its kind of pretend business. This or any other professional artist is a business and they are bound by the same laws and common sense "best practices" of contracts.

 

If I hire contractors to renovate my home, and after a year not a single nail has been hammered and no workmen have as yet been seen, I'm met with the response that I need to work harder at it, its going to end up in court.

 

I could see this whole thing maybe making sense, if this or any artist formally conditioned all commissions with the caveat that the work may be indefinite, and that it taking so long, the artist may naturally forget about the commission, and have to be reminded, from time to time, why he was paid.

 

I guess he has to be a special artist indeed to get work on this basis.

 

 

[AKA Rick]

 

If I hire contractors to renovate my home, and after a year not a single nail has been hammered and no workmen have as yet been seen, I'm met with the response that I need to work harder at it, its going to end up in court.

 

 

Great analogy, and more the reason to have formal agreements in place, partial deposits and not pay in full cash in advance as well as check references (in this case if there's cyber-stink about an artist's tardiness and there's a long line ahead of you, you'll need to decide if you want to get in the back of the line and face future frustration).

 

 

[AKA Rick]

Really? Just being provocative, but maybe they decided to donate the money by giving up? It is not cool, but it is not criminal. Like I said, if you work at it you get your art, If you give up you get nothing.

"Work at it"? Huh. Anybody want to stand up and agree with Sean here? Sure you're being provocative, but is that statement quoted above actually what you think?

 

In a respectful and professional world you should only have to ask once. I think it's a poor reflection of the person and relationship when one side finds themselves nearly begging to the other side.

 

If an artist takes money, then, to me that's the agreement and commitment from the customer and it's 100% on the artist to deliver on the promise. The customer should not need to remind the artist, check in, and communicate. From there, if the work isn't done by the promised terms, it's acceptable for the customer to inquire with a reminder or for a status update. From there, it's all on the artist to create their relationships, cultivate relationships and develop reputations as being reliably professional or a flake.

 

Giving up and getting nothing shouldn't be an option for a customer, 'tho may collectors faced with the dilemma of their own discomfort with being perceived as a persistent or pesky fan to the "Soup Nazi" scenarios where so many fans kowtow to artists to not them off, fearing the "No Art for You!" blacklist.

 

If I were to lend someone $300 and they ask me about when I'll pay them back, and continue to remind me time and time again, where sometimes I respond, many times I ignore, and when I do communicate I make excuses, and after time goes by, I still owe that $300, is it fair to say that as the person who lent the money, that I need to "work at it" to get my money back and yes, if I give up, I'll probably get nothing, but that's far from considering that $300 a donation and writing it off. It is criminal at minimum in morality, maybe not by the letter of the law if there was no contract signed, but nonetheless is very dishonorable.

 

If an artist doesn't take money, in my opinion, then it's just being on a waiting list, and the whole "work at it" would come into play and checking in on where the artist is at with their schedule to fit a customer in or not.

 

Circling back to Bill Sienkiewicz, I commissioned a piece from him maybe about 5 years ago, paid cash in advance against my better judgement based on his reputation and the fact that my peers were still owed art from him, but I'd seen him at the start of a 3 day convention and it was a basic commission that in theory could be done within 30 focused minutes and he said he could do it by the end of the day on the 1st day. Well, we've all been in this situation, you come back and are told it'll be done the next day, then sure enough on the last day it's not done, and it's promised to be mailed or will be brought to the next convention. Months and a handful of in-person encounters at conventions go by and it's still not done. Emails are sometimes replied to, but often ignored. However, within a little over a year from the commission (and from what I hear, I am fortunate), he did come through and finish my piece, also adding graciously an apology along with telling me he's going to take the piece up a notch by adding more detail and colors since I've waited so long. So, to that degree, I know he's not a criminal or had bad intentions, and is simply not really organized and can't prioritize, possibly taking on more than he can handle. He's a pleasant person. His biggest business error is taking cash in advance. He's such a popular artist, even if he did do a commission and a customer flaked, he'd have no problem selling the piece for the same price if not more in the open market.

[shanester]

Yeah 'wires', lowercase, generic.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

[Claudio]

I think what might rubbed me the wrong way about his post, was the tone. I know it bothered me and I never commissioned him for a piece.

 

Imagine if voodoo posted something like that on his FB page?

 

"To the artist who ripped me off and never completed my commission, F U. I am not casting aspersion on Bill Sienkiewicz but it seems pretty suspicious that many others have the same complaint. Oh, and F U."

 

Bill got ripped off once. Seems like a small price to pay for the amount of people he has ripped off. I understand he might be a nice guy and he might not mean to rip people off, but he has done so repeatedly.

[Bird]

I think what might rubbed me the wrong way about his post, was the tone. I know it bothered me and I never commissioned him for a piece.

 

Imagine if voodoo posted something like that on his FB page?

 

"To the artist who ripped me off and never completed my commission, F U. I am not casting aspersion on Bill Sienkiewicz but it seems pretty suspicious that many others have the same complaint. Oh, and F U."

 

Bill got ripped off once. Seems like a small price to pay for the amount of people he has ripped off. I understand he might be a nice guy and he might not mean to rip people off, but he has done so repeatedly.

 

Yes, he owes many from what I understand. What he has done is wrong. I just took issue with it being equated with the theft of his work. Like many have said, his reputation is well known and I do not know what the terms of commissions were...I only know my own experience that ended okay.

 

to voodoo, yes that was my personal experience. On more than one occasion (no money down second time) I had to hound him but he did indeed get me my art. (I also got one from Kaluta so maybe I am lucky.) To anyone who he owes a commission, stand in front of him and he will likely do it then. It isn't perfect but I believe it usually works.

[Bird]

Really? Just being provocative, but maybe they decided to donate the money by giving up? It is not cool, but it is not criminal. Like I said, if you work at it you get your art, If you give up you get nothing.

"Work at it"? Huh. Anybody want to stand up and agree with Sean here? Sure you're being provocative, but is that statement quoted above actually what you think?

 

In a respectful and professional world you should only have to ask once. I think it's a poor reflection of the person and relationship when one side finds themselves nearly begging to the other side.

 

If an artist takes money, then, to me that's the agreement and commitment from the customer and it's 100% on the artist to deliver on the promise. The customer should not need to remind the artist, check in, and communicate. From there, if the work isn't done by the promised terms, it's acceptable for the customer to inquire with a reminder or for a status update. From there, it's all on the artist to create their relationships, cultivate relationships and develop reputations as being reliably professional or a flake.

 

Giving up and getting nothing shouldn't be an option for a customer, 'tho may collectors faced with the dilemma of their own discomfort with being perceived as a persistent or pesky fan to the "Soup Nazi" scenarios where so many fans kowtow to artists to not them off, fearing the "No Art for You!" blacklist.

 

If I were to lend someone $300 and they ask me about when I'll pay them back, and continue to remind me time and time again, where sometimes I respond, many times I ignore, and when I do communicate I make excuses, and after time goes by, I still owe that $300, is it fair to say that as the person who lent the money, that I need to "work at it" to get my money back and yes, if I give up, I'll probably get nothing, but that's far from considering that $300 a donation and writing it off. It is criminal at minimum in morality, maybe not by the letter of the law if there was no contract signed, but nonetheless is very dishonorable.

 

If an artist doesn't take money, in my opinion, then it's just being on a waiting list, and the whole "work at it" would come into play and checking in on where the artist is at with their schedule to fit a customer in or not.

 

Circling back to Bill Sienkiewicz, I commissioned a piece from him maybe about 5 years ago, paid cash in advance against my better judgement based on his reputation and the fact that my peers were still owed art from him, but I'd seen him at the start of a 3 day convention and it was a basic commission that in theory could be done within 30 focused minutes and he said he could do it by the end of the day on the 1st day. Well, we've all been in this situation, you come back and are told it'll be done the next day, then sure enough on the last day it's not done, and it's promised to be mailed or will be brought to the next convention. Months and a handful of in-person encounters at conventions go by and it's still not done. Emails are sometimes replied to, but often ignored. However, within a little over a year from the commission (and from what I hear, I am fortunate), he did come through and finish my piece, also adding graciously an apology along with telling me he's going to take the piece up a notch by adding more detail and colors since I've waited so long. So, to that degree, I know he's not a criminal or had bad intentions, and is simply not really organized and can't prioritize, possibly taking on more than he can handle. He's a pleasant person. His biggest business error is taking cash in advance. He's such a popular artist, even if he did do a commission and a customer flaked, he'd have no problem selling the piece for the same price if not more in the open market.

 

I am glad that people can express themselves well when I do not do so myself. I agree wholeheartedly (I think, there is a lot there.)

 

Again, I would be happy to hassle Bill for anyone or even buy your outstanding commission if you want some help. Someone helped me with Bill and I have no issue helping you. Now the person who helped me with Bill was a kind BSD who never met me; I can guarantee I won;t have that pull but Bill knows me by sight and we chat at shows often.

[Bird]

Really? Just being provocative, but maybe they decided to donate the money by giving up? It is not cool, but it is not criminal. Like I said, if you work at it you get your art, If you give up you get nothing.

"Work at it"? Huh. Anybody want to stand up and agree with Sean here? Sure you're being provocative, but is that statement quoted above actually what you think?

 

 

Absolutely what I think. I have worked hard to get what I am owed from Bill, Michael Kaluta, Phil Noto, Teddy Kristiansen, Michael Lark (that one killed my enthusiasm for the man's work for years though), and others. It sucks but not one of them was a surprise (except for Kaluta...I was unaware of his reputation when I commissioned my Shadow).

 

Like I said, I am happy to help anyone if any of your deadbeat artists are coming to NY/NJ area.

[Bird]

I just want to chime in and say I think it wrong that Bill's not completing commissions is somehow equated as equal to this thief who committed a crime.

 

I have gotten stuff from Bill in the mail on more than one occasion, although it takes time. I have also been frustrated with a lack of response from Bill and had others intervene on my behalf, successfully so. But never would I have considered Bill a thief in these situations. I understand those who have given $ and gotten nothing in return may be emotional about it but the situations are apples and oranges.

 

I do not have deep pockets but I think I could buy a few of these outstanding commissions from the dissatisfied customers if they have documentation and I talk to Bill about it this summer. PM me if interested...this is not a promise to buy or a solicitation to buy but just to talk.

 

Is he a troubled artist? I'm not so sure its apples and oranges. Whether you are taking money for apples or for oranges if you take the money you deliver the product. Are you talking about delays, meaning someone waiting longer than they expected but finally getting their product, or are you talking about literally someone paying money for a product they never (ever) receive?

 

The latter is theft, just to be clear.

 

Really? Just being provocative, but maybe they decided to donate the money by giving up? It is not cool, but it is not criminal. Like I said, if you work at it you get your art, If you give up you get nothing.

 

I understand commissions are not like selling comics, where the comic just has to be shipped, but why should someone paying for a commission have to then, in addition, work hard at getting it? Isn't it the artist who is supposed to be hard at work completing it?

 

I think because this is a hobby about art which most people join because its fun, there is this preconception that its not real business, that its kind of pretend business. This or any other professional artist is a business and they are bound by the same laws and common sense "best practices" of contracts.

 

If I hire contractors to renovate my home, and after a year not a single nail has been hammered and no workmen have as yet been seen, I'm met with the response that I need to work harder at it, its going to end up in court.

 

I could see this whole thing maybe making sense, if this or any artist formally conditioned all commissions with the caveat that the work may be indefinite, and that it taking so long, the artist may naturally forget about the commission, and have to be reminded, from time to time, why he was paid.

 

I guess he has to be a special artist indeed to get work on this basis.

 

 

I went to Bleeding Cool once instead. It never made it to the page but they helped make Seth Frail deliver the goods!

 

It should be a business, indeed. I got a receipt from Bill for my down payment back in the day, dated and itemized. You are right in that people do not treat it as such, but that is on both ends of the equation not just the artists. You wouldn't give money to a contractor at a trade show with perhaps nothing more than giving your name and the character of the job and then just walk off either.

[Bird]

5th post in a row now

 

I want to apologize if I expressed myself poorly. I do not want to cast aspersions on anyone who gave money to Bill. I have done so as well. Sometimes we think with our hearts and not our heads in these situations, especially when we see awesome commissions that others have managed to acquire. I do it to. But once reason sets in I hope no one just gives up. That rewards and reinforces the behavior unfortunately. Let's punish and extinguish the behavior by finishing the deal.

 

Sorry if I tossed a grenade there.

[vodou]

You wouldn't give money to a contractor at a trade show with perhaps nothing more than giving your name and the character of the job and then just walk off either.

The big difference here being, the contractor wouldn't think twice about giving you a receipt and probably a copy of the estimate/work order. You wouldn't have to ask. With artists...the balance of power is more like 80/20 in their favor. It is what it is. And if any of us tries to paperwork it too much, they'll probably just stop taking commissions (the big names anyway)...after all...we do all understand why they prefer cash over the table...right? That same reason is why few/none would want to give you any paperwork in return for your partial/full payment

[Bird]

You wouldn't give money to a contractor at a trade show with perhaps nothing more than giving your name and the character of the job and then just walk off either.

The big difference here being, the contractor wouldn't think twice about giving you a receipt and probably a copy of the estimate/work order. You wouldn't have to ask. With artists...the balance of power is more like 80/20 in their favor. It is what it is. And if any of us tries to paperwork it too much, they'll probably just stop taking commissions (the big names anyway)...after all...we do all understand why they prefer cash over the table...right? That same reason is why few/none would want to give you any paperwork in return for your partial/full payment

 

Fair enough. But the bogus contractors don't follow through as well, receipt or not.

 

It is only 80/20 when you allow it to be so.

 

And I don't need paperwork to talk to an artist, only to buy a Bill outstanding commission. Just making the offer, trying to help. No partial payments, I am not trying to exploit the situation but assist in rectifying a wrong. I also am not made of money, so I cannot buy them all but no one has asked so it is moot.

[vodou]

Sean your offer has nothing to do with my comments, perhaps it's confusing you (or at least to others) that you put it there in that way? Maybe no big deal.

 

Your offer is pretty generous imo, wonder why you aren't getting any takers?

 

"But the bogus contractors don't follow through as well, receipt or not." But at least you have recourse. No recourse with cash over a table and the con sketch becomes a take home becomes a...never hear from them again.

 

"It is only 80/20 when you allow it to be so." You are correct. That's why I don't do sketches/commissions anymore. Now it's 100% in my favor. And those artists (and all the others too) cost themselves a customer for life, 100% loss.

[Bird]

Sean your offer has nothing to do with my comments, perhaps it's confusing you (or at least to others) that you put it there in that way? Maybe no big deal.

 

Your offer is pretty generous imo, wonder why you aren't getting any takers?

 

"But the bogus contractors don't follow through as well, receipt or not." But at least you have recourse. No recourse with cash over a table and the con sketch becomes a take home becomes a...never hear from them again.

 

"It is only 80/20 when you allow it to be so." You are correct. That's why I don't do sketches/commissions anymore. Now it's 100% in my favor. And those artists (and all the others too) cost themselves a customer for life, 100% loss.

 

I wasn't confused until now, but that's okay.

 

I don't do commissions anymore either, with rare exceptions. Being burned is one of the many reasons, along with my desire to get fewer pieces of better quality. I go to a ton of cons though.

 

I don't know why the offer has no takers but cannot concern myself with other people's decision and perceptions. I only know my intentions. (Which really is just an offer to facilitate a dialogue. I like Bill but that is colored by admiration obviously as I do not know the man. He knows my face but I doubt he knows my name.) My offer was impulsive but made without reservation as I am confident that I can stand in front of Bill and come to an arrangement.

[Bird]

You wouldn't give money to a contractor at a trade show with perhaps nothing more than giving your name and the character of the job and then just walk off either.

The big difference here being, the contractor wouldn't think twice about giving you a receipt and probably a copy of the estimate/work order. You wouldn't have to ask. With artists...the balance of power is more like 80/20 in their favor. It is what it is. And if any of us tries to paperwork it too much, they'll probably just stop taking commissions (the big names anyway)...after all...we do all understand why they prefer cash over the table...right? That same reason is why few/none would want to give you any paperwork in return for your partial/full payment

 

 

 

Sean your offer has nothing to do with my comments, perhaps it's confusing you (or at least to others) that you put it there in that way? Maybe no big deal.

 

Your offer is pretty generous imo, wonder why you aren't getting any takers?

 

"But the bogus contractors don't follow through as well, receipt or not." But at least you have recourse. No recourse with cash over a table and the con sketch becomes a take home becomes a...never hear from them again.

 

"It is only 80/20 when you allow it to be so." You are correct. That's why I don't do sketches/commissions anymore. Now it's 100% in my favor. And those artists (and all the others too) cost themselves a customer for life, 100% loss.

 

Okay, I am no longer confused. Took a minute though. When you replied to me and used the words "you" and "your" I assumed you meant me and my offer. now I get it though.

 

I was driving since posting this morning and thinking about Bill. If I get anything from Bill it would be a landscape watercolor. I have really loving his non-comic work lately when I see him post it.

[buyatari]

Some people are better at shipping on time than others. Slow shippers will always be slow shippers even if they don't mean to be. Once you start pushing multiple people back 5-10 years then it may be time to come up with a better system. Perhaps take only half the payment upfront. This way there is an incentive to finish the work and also less reason for a collector to feel upset when it takes a long time.

 

Of course if an artist were to go so far as not to charge a cent until a work was finished then no one could gripe no matter how long it took. He could offer it to you when it was finished and give you a predetermined set time to pay before he sold it at the next convention.