Is there more market manipulation today than at any other time?

[jsilverjanet]

It appears to me that there are dozens of sites hyping books to speculate on, or even threads on these boards where people try to promote their agenda to increase awareness, and in some cases mislead the general public (ex perceived rarity) to increase prices on a book or books.

 

Has it ever been as bad as it is today?

 

I know we all make jokes about Wizard and their top ten and its harmful impact but do those articles/lists pale in comparison to the hype machine by certain indivuals/sites?

 

I was too dumb to understand the hype machine growing up so I can't recall its impact then, and I know in today's age, information moves quickly and to many more people than before

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

No.

 

Back in the days before the internet, market supply was much, much more tightly controlled, and far more easy to manipulate.

 

The manipulation attempts are certainly broader than they have ever been, but because of the ease of access the internet granted, people have far, far more choices than ever before.

 

The internet changed everything.

[Bills Comics]

I think sometimes it happens because of this website . Not always on purpose , but this website does and can have an impact on the market .

Brings to mind that old TV commercial about the influential stock brokerage company . EF Hutton .

When The CGC forums talk, people listen.

It doesnt always last but I am sure it happens .

[shadroch]

There is more money in the hobby than ever before, so it follows you will get more manipulation. Much of it is our own fault. Back when the difference between a F/VF and a NM was perhaps 50%, it barely made sense to spend a lot of effort raising a grade. Now that a VF book that sells for $75 can sometimes become a $500 book, it pays to do so. Twenty years ago, we had to contend with color touch. Now there is pressing, micro-trimming and spine manipulation.

[jsilverjanet]

I think sometimes it happens because of this website . Not always on purpose , but this website does and can have an impact on the market .

Brings to mind that old TV commercial about the influential stock brokerage company . EF Hutton .

When The CGC forums talk, people listen.

It doesnt always last but I am sure it happens .

 

I think there are new sites that have a greater impact because there is less oversight. This site has a lot of board members who challenge a lot of these falsehoods.

[jsilverjanet]

There is more money in the hobby than ever before, so it follows you will get more manipulation. Much of it is our own fault. Back when the difference between a F/VF and a NM was perhaps 50%, it barely made sense to spend a lot of effort raising a grade. Now that a VF book that sells for $75 can sometimes become a $500 book, it pays to do so. Twenty years ago, we had to contend with color touch. Now there is pressing, micro-trimming and spine manipulation.

 

I think you hit the nail in the head. There's more money and that leads to much of this behaviour. I wasn't talking necessarily about book manipulation but more hot books, rare books, sold out books, or hot artists that people need to buy based on very little facts

[darkstar]

Yes there is.

[jsilverjanet]

Here's an example

 

http://comicbookinvest.com

[RockMyAmadeus]

There is more money in the hobby than ever before, so it follows you will get more manipulation. Much of it is our own fault. Back when the difference between a F/VF and a NM was perhaps 50%, it barely made sense to spend a lot of effort raising a grade. Now that a VF book that sells for $75 can sometimes become a $500 book, it pays to do so. Twenty years ago, we had to contend with color touch. Now there is pressing, micro-trimming and spine manipulation.

 

I think you hit the nail in the head. There's more money and that leads to much of this behaviour. I wasn't talking necessarily about book manipulation but more hot books, rare books, sold out books, or hot artists that people need to buy based on very little facts

 

No.

 

As I said, "more money" doesn't mean "more manipulation." Before the internet, market supply was very tightly controlled, and greatly manipulated, by a small handful of people, mostly dealers, but also publications like :"WIzard", "Comics Values Monthly", and, yes, Overstreet.

 

The internet changed all of that. It's quite difficult to manipulate the perceptions of the market in the way it was possible before, with both access to the market and information about the market terrifically expanded.

 

Did you actually mean to ask if there are more people TRYING to manipulate the market...? Because that's certainly true. The good thing is, those voices don't have anywhere near the impact that they might have in the past.

[jsilverjanet]

There is more money in the hobby than ever before, so it follows you will get more manipulation. Much of it is our own fault. Back when the difference between a F/VF and a NM was perhaps 50%, it barely made sense to spend a lot of effort raising a grade. Now that a VF book that sells for $75 can sometimes become a $500 book, it pays to do so. Twenty years ago, we had to contend with color touch. Now there is pressing, micro-trimming and spine manipulation.

 

I think you hit the nail in the head. There's more money and that leads to much of this behaviour. I wasn't talking necessarily about book manipulation but more hot books, rare books, sold out books, or hot artists that people need to buy based on very little facts

 

No.

 

As I said, "more money" doesn't mean "more manipulation." Before the internet, market supply was very tightly controlled, and greatly manipulated, by a small handful of people, mostly dealers, but also publications like :"WIzard", "Comics Values Monthly", and, yes, Overstreet.

 

The internet changed all of that. It's quite difficult to manipulate the perceptions of the market in the way it was possible before, with both access to the market and information about the market terrifically expanded.

 

Did you actually mean to ask if there are more people TRYING to manipulate the market...? Because that's certainly true. The good thing is, those voices don't have anywhere near the impact that they might have in the past.

 

yes, that's more of what I was getting at.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Here's an example

 

http://comicbookinvest.com

 

These people are idjits.

 

They don't know what they're doing, evidenced by the fact that they come up with numbers that they do not cite, and they insist on reporting the erroneous idea that "1:X" ratios are PRINT numbers, rather than DISTRIBUTION numbers.

 

Look! Misinformation on the internet! How novel!

[jsilverjanet]

I get the perception (and this may not be the reality) but that they do have a big impact on what people are buying

[Plantman]

Yes, there absolutely is, at least when it comes to "visible" attempts at manipulation. I could cite dozens and dozens of questionable website articles or message board posts.

 

As for the "invisible" stuff, you would probably have to be a dealer or an Overstreet/Shamus type to know the extent of such manipulation in the pre-Internet age.

[Heronext]

What I have a distaste for is the hyping of comics just hitting the shelves. I assume this is what the OP refers to. Sometimes as much as a half-dozen books a week are touted which can't all possibly hold value long-term, if any. I don't believe it's the place of retailers / comic shop owners to give such advice because of the obvious conflict of interest. The opportunity to take advantage of young and/or experienced collectors is high. Any such blogging should be limited to the quality of content.

[RockMyAmadeus]

What I have a distaste for is the hyping of comics just hitting the shelves. I assume this is what the OP refers to. Sometimes as much as a half-dozen books a week are touted which can't all possibly hold value long-term, if any. I don't believe it's the place of retailers / comic shop owners to give such advice because of the obvious conflict of interest. The opportunity to take advantage of young and/or experienced collectors is high. Any such blogging should be limited to the quality of content.

 

What is illegal in the securities industry...that is, stating that any particular asset is a "can't lose prospect"...is practiced on an hourly basis in the comics industry.

 

It's foolishness to a great degree.

[Plantman]

Variants, hoarded books, Google Plus, Facebook groups

Joker's Daughter in 3-D, Harley Quinn will meet Scooby

 

Marvel Age, 2nd prints, movie spec, rumour mill

More expensive newsstand versions, print runs tied to distribution!

 

They didn't start the fire

Remember colour touch

It was always bleeding

[rjrjr]

It appears to me that there are dozens of sites hyping books to speculate on, or even threads on these boards where people try to promote their agenda to increase awareness, and in some cases mislead the general public (ex perceived rarity) to increase prices on a book or books.

 

Has it ever been as bad as it is today?

 

I know we all make jokes about Wizard and their top ten and its harmful impact but do those articles/lists pale in comparison to the hype machine by certain indivuals/sites?

 

I was too dumb to understand the hype machine growing up so I can't recall its impact then, and I know in today's age, information moves quickly and to many more people than before

 

 

I think there are more speculators now than there have been since the early 90s. I also believe much of the new comic market is propped up by this speculation. The publishers are catering to this market as well. Basically, in many ways, we are repeating the mistakes of the early 90s. I think you are correct about the scale; there are definitely more "Wizards" now than there have ever been. I suspect a large number of comic buyers today do not care or read the comics they own, but enjoy the status of owning those comics.

 

Much of the frenzy today is interesting. I see some collectors (speculators) jumping in, even those who should know better. Why buy a book now, at a higher price, if you had no interest in that book at a lower price yesterday? I will never understand that mindset. I don't go out of my way to buy books I have no interest in just because a website says it is "hot", "rare", or whatever buzz word they use. Comic collecting is expensive enough as it is buying the books I want, let alone buying books I do not really care about. In 5 or 10 years, who is going to care if I amassed a collection of once hot books or a comic book that was made into a mediocre movie? And make no mistakes, 99% of these books are going to be inconsequential.

[ComicConnoisseur]

What I have a distaste for is the hyping of comics just hitting the shelves. I assume this is what the OP refers to. Sometimes as much as a half-dozen books a week are touted which can't all possibly hold value long-term, if any. I don't believe it's the place of retailers / comic shop owners to give such advice because of the obvious conflict of interest. The opportunity to take advantage of young and/or experienced collectors is high. Any such blogging should be limited to the quality of content.

It`s been happening for a long time, and not just in the comics hobby.

Other hobbies such as video games,sports cards and Lego do it at even a higher rate!

Best thing to do is just educate yourself as to what goes on.

 

[october]

There may be more people attempting to manipulate the market than ever before, but the tools to combat this have never been so readily available. Just look at how quickly this board sniffs out scammers, shill bidders, PLOD crackers, trimmers, spine movers, and other scoundrels. The market is a minefield, but there are safe conduct maps for the ones who bother to look.

 

eBay has been an amazing equalizer as well. Things that were once touted as rare were revealed to be common and, though it took a few years, it has served as an amazing normalizer. The internet basically destroyed regional and local shop/dealer/convention back issue monopolies. It was a quantum leap forward in value transparency.

[KPR Comics]

But see, e.g.,

Moderns that are heating up on ebay!

 

I felt the need to shower each time after entering that thread. I now avoid it.