Is there more market manipulation today than at any other time?

[Gatsby77]

I'd say that market manipulation is harder now than it was 20 years ago (i.e., the pre-eBay age) simply because the internet broke the dealer cartel chokehold on supply.

 

Perfect example for this is to compare the rise and fall of Superman 75 (1992) vs. the rise and fall of Captain America 25 (2007).

 

Both books caught portions of the market by surprise, both were covered extensively by the media, both had multiple covers, and both were instant sell-outs that skyrocketed on the day of release.

 

The difference between the pre- and post-eBay eras showed up entirely in the velocity of the rise and fall.

 

In the Philadelphia era in1992, Superman 75 (black bagged) went to $8 on day of release, to $10-$15 later in the week, to $25 within two weeks and later as high as $40, where it stayed for awhile.

 

eBay compressed this timeline for Captain America 25, where bulk (raw) copies were selling on eBay as high as $50-$60 apiece within 36 hours of its release, but the price was back down to $15 a week later. And in the DC area, plenty of first print reorders came in so the book was available again for cover price as late as 3 weeks after release.

 

The rise and fall all happened so fast that people who ran full 7- or 9-day eBay auctions lost out on a lot of potential money vs. those who ran 24-hour or 3-day auctions.

 

My conclusion: far harder to manipulate the market today vs. 20 years ago -- and with so many more buyers & sellers, things tend to settle at their "true" price more quickly.

[StuporMan]

I'd say that market manipulation is harder now than it was 20 years ago (i.e., the pre-eBay age) simply because the internet broke the dealer cartel chokehold on supply.

 

Perfect example for this is to compare the rise and fall of Superman 75 (1992) vs. the rise and fall of Captain America 25 (2007).

 

Both books caught portions of the market by surprise, both were covered extensively by the media, both had multiple covers, and both were instant sell-outs that skyrocketed on the day of release.

 

The difference between the pre- and post-eBay eras showed up entirely in the velocity of the rise and fall.

 

In the Philadelphia era in1992, Superman 75 (black bagged) went to $8 on day of release, to $10-$15 later in the week, to $25 within two weeks and later as high as $40, where it stayed for awhile.

 

eBay compressed this timeline for Captain America 25, where bulk (raw) copies were selling on eBay as high as $50-$60 apiece within 36 hours of its release, but the price was back down to $15 a week later. And in the DC area, plenty of first print reorders came in so the book was available again for cover price as late as 3 weeks after release.

 

The rise and fall all happened so fast that people who ran full 7- or 9-day eBay auctions lost out on a lot of potential money vs. those who ran 24-hour or 3-day auctions.

 

My conclusion: far harder to manipulate the market today vs. 20 years ago -- and with so many more buyers & sellers, things tend to settle at their "true" price more quickly.

 

Very good points here. The good thing about the short hype cycle is that things that are just flash-in-the-pan popular, the demand is quickly met and if there's any strength to the book/fad/movie/etc, then it will slowly cycle back up. Kinda like a hot tech stock IPO

 

With the long cycle, a lot of people get in at the top ($40 for Supes #75!, a lot back then), and a lot of people can get taken for their cash. I can think of examples where I fell into both - losing money sucks no matter how long the cycle, though ...

[VintageComics]

 

Yeah, at the time, Hobby was probably the biggest/baddest Spidey villain.

 

People loved Venom too, but "we" loved McFarlane more. I remember 315-317 were great and Venom was a cool new villain. When he next appeared (early 330's), Larsen was drawing him and he amped up the tongue/slobber and he wasn't as cool.

 

I always associated Venom with McFarlane and never with Michelinie.

[Gotham Kid]

 

Yeah, at the time, Hobby was probably the biggest/baddest Spidey villain.

 

People loved Venom too, but "we" loved McFarlane more. I remember 315-317 were great and Venom was a cool new villain. When he next appeared (early 330's), Larsen was drawing him and he amped up the tongue/slobber and he wasn't as cool.

 

I always associated Venom with McFarlane and never with Michelinie.

 

+1

[Prince Namor]

I'd say that market manipulation is harder now than it was 20 years ago (i.e., the pre-eBay age) simply because the internet broke the dealer cartel chokehold on supply.

 

Perfect example for this is to compare the rise and fall of Superman 75 (1992) vs. the rise and fall of Captain America 25 (2007).

 

Both books caught portions of the market by surprise, both were covered extensively by the media, both had multiple covers, and both were instant sell-outs that skyrocketed on the day of release.

 

The difference between the pre- and post-eBay eras showed up entirely in the velocity of the rise and fall.

 

In the Philadelphia era in1992, Superman 75 (black bagged) went to $8 on day of release, to $10-$15 later in the week, to $25 within two weeks and later as high as $40, where it stayed for awhile.

 

eBay compressed this timeline for Captain America 25, where bulk (raw) copies were selling on eBay as high as $50-$60 apiece within 36 hours of its release, but the price was back down to $15 a week later. And in the DC area, plenty of first print reorders came in so the book was available again for cover price as late as 3 weeks after release.

 

All of that and Cap sold about 6,790,486 less copies!

 

My conclusion: far harder to manipulate the market today vs. 20 years ago -- and with so many more buyers & sellers, things tend to settle at their "true" price more quickly.

 

Yeah, from the secondary market stand point, most everyone went to one source, back then, Wizard, for what was 'hot', and really had very little to fact check that info - compared to now, where they actually check the data on eBay/other sources vs the BS they read in the Modern CGC forum or from some silly self serving blog. As you point out, the market has a way to settle into the FMV more naturally....

 

But I think Wizard did far more damage from the distribution side of things, by making back room deals with publishers to over hype books coming out to ramp up the numbers, and trick people into buying multiple copies of books that would end up being virtually worthless.

 

If I buy a Superman #75 for $25 and 2 years later it's a $5 book... I'm disappointed.

 

If I pre-order a long box of Turok #1's.....

[Prince Namor]

 

Yeah, at the time, Hobby was probably the biggest/baddest Spidey villain.

 

People loved Venom too, but "we" loved McFarlane more. I remember 315-317 were great and Venom was a cool new villain. When he next appeared (early 330's), Larsen was drawing him and he amped up the tongue/slobber and he wasn't as cool.

 

I always associated Venom with McFarlane and never with Michelinie.

 

+1

 

Because comics are a visual medium and McFarlane's presentation was superb.

 

Michelinie had the concept in one form or another before he was on ASM.

[kav]

Yep McFarlane drew this dude splendidly

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Yeah, at the time, Hobby was probably the biggest/baddest Spidey villain.

 

People loved Venom too, but "we" loved McFarlane more. I remember 315-317 were great and Venom was a cool new villain. When he next appeared (early 330's), Larsen was drawing him and he amped up the tongue/slobber and he wasn't as cool.

 

I always associated Venom with McFarlane and never with Michelinie.

 

Fans wouldn't, no. That's true of most writers. But Marvel did, which is why Michelinie exercised a modicum of control over the character for several years. Venom was, after all, Michelinie's idea long before McFarlane came on the scene. Venom didn't make his first story appearance outside of ASM for nearly two years (Quasar #6.)

 

And this was the last years of the era where villains weren't considered to be of the same status as heroes. It was very, very rare that you could look at a price guide in 1988 and see the first appearance of villains listed. Dr. Doom, Magneto, Green Goblin, other early Spidey villains...but, all in all, you just didn't see it that much.

 

Cable is a good example. Within a year of his first appearance, he started to appear all over the Marvel U. In 1991, the same year Venom made 9 comic book appearances, Cable made 26, despite Venom being nearly 2 years older.

 

Michelinie, of course, had worked at Marvel for over a decade at that point, while Liefeld was...Liefeld.

[StuporMan]

Yep McFarlane drew this dude splendidly

 

[JayT]

To his credit, and just being rational I guess, Michelinie has credited the popularity of Venom to McFarlane's visuals, which is somewhat interesting regarding the whole "when did Venom become popular" discussion, though I guess the basic design, sans the crazy teeth holds true.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Yep McFarlane drew this dude splendidly

 

 

That panel is from ASM #322, (#321? 323? One of the three.) McFarlane was on a bi-weekly schedule, and it clearly showed. He was not putting in the effort that he did earlier in the run. The cherry-sweet spot for his art on the run is #308-316 or so.

 

Those books, other than the occasional smooshed face and pouty lips, were the best he ever did.

 

And yes, Virginia, McFarlane really did draw "smooshed" faces, despite what some of the OA guys think.

 

[kav]

Fair enough.

[kav]

Smooshed face is better than Liefeld's rodent faces and taco shield

 

[StuporMan]

To his credit, and just being rational I guess, Michelinie has credited the popularity of Venom to McFarlane's visuals, which is somewhat interesting regarding the whole "when did Venom become popular" discussion, though I guess the basic design, sans the crazy teeth holds true.

 

Did Jim Shooter create the concept of the symbiote?

[october]

Smooshed face is better than Liefeld's rodent faces and taco shield

 

 

Of the many, many things wrong with that cover, my biggest question has always been why he decided to draw a disembodied bald woman's head over Cap's left thigh.

 

The answer might be in the issue, but no way in hell am I buying that, let alone reading it.

[StuporMan]

Smooshed face is better than Liefeld's rodent faces and taco shield

 

 

Of the many, many things wrong with that cover, my biggest question has always been why he decided to draw a disembodied bald woman's head over Cap's left thigh.

 

The answer might be in the issue, but no way in hell am I buying that, let alone reading it.

 

He did draw some feet in this one tho...

[kav]

He couldn't take 5 seconds to see what a disc looks like edge on? laziest artist ever.

[krighton]

Some type of market manipulation caused me to buy a lot of Plasm

[fastballspecial]

To get back on topic the last 3 years or so have gotten bad.

 

A new breed of speculator as come in. This breed runs websites pumps books they have personally amassed then spews it out on their site. Quite frankly its sickening. I don't mind someone telling others that a book is hot when they can prove it. I really hate when they sell exclusives or you see a book they say is hot and its in their ebay store. Coincidence I think not. Whats more some insufficiently_thoughtful_persons on here worship these as gospel.

 

I had to ban my first two buyers on CGC in the last 2 years. I have never banned one before then. Ive seen market manipulation from board members(Stupid ones), Ive returned more books in the last 2 years then in the last 10 I have been on here.

 

Why? Because people are jumping in the hobby with no clue what they are doing. Just this last week I got a VF book with a Water Stain, a NM+ book with NBCs all up and down the front/back cover and a NM copy with a corner crunch.

 

I used to think it was just card collectors coming in to ruin our hobby, but its worse then that. When I go to shows anymore I go for one day and its usually Friday. The weekend crowds are ridiculous and they aren't there comics they are just there for attention.

 

In a lot of ways we are victim of our own success. As long we keep buying that variant Marvel/DC and everyone else sells us this problem wont go away till the movies start failing.

 

End of

[StuporMan]

Some type of market manipulation caused me to buy a lot of Plasm

 

Jim Shooter + Wizard + Illuminati