What percentage of the CGC census is ghosts?

[jimjum12]

Been thinking about this over the last couple of weeks and curious to see what people's thoughts are. How many census entries are ghosts? For the uninitiated, ghosts are entries in the census that are books that have been cracked out and either resubbed or are sitting raw in someone's collection and the label was never turned into CGC to get the entry removed. I know there is no way to know. No way to even make an "educated guess". But I'm just curious to see some discussion around this.

 

I would think it would skew heavier to the higher grades as that is where most of the CPR action takes place (I think). As the years go by I think the number gets bigger and bigger and makes the census less and less useful. But just how big is that number?

 

I'd think very few of the 9.8s and higher has been cracked out so that leaves pretty much everything else. I'd guess 20% of all the books are graded 9.8 considering how many modern/copper books get graded compared to older books. I'd guess 25% of sub 9.8 books get cracked for various reasons so that gives me 20% of all books are "ghost".

 

I think it depends on your definition of "ghost" books. I probably have a couple hundred cracked-out CGC books in my personal collection, all of which have the CGC label in the back - these books still exist in the CGC census, but aren't technically slabbed anymore.

 

If you're talking specifically about books that have been cracked where the label has been discarded, wasn't included in the resub, etc, 20% of the census is waaay too high of a number.

 

A cracked out book sitting in someone's collection that still has the label with it is still a ghost. It is no longer slabbed. IF it were to be slabbed again, it would be slabbed as a new submission and a new entry created for that same book with whatever the new grade is (even if it's the same grade as the previous time). 1 book - 2 census entries = a ghost.

 

...so true. Regardless of motivation, the census is in place to document the number of slabbed books. Personally, however, even though a book is no longer slabbed, I place a higher value on a raw book with the label included, if it's coming from someone I trust. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

Oh absolutely. If it's a book I want, I would pay close to GPA for a book like that.

 

... in some cases I might even pay more..... but it would have to be a scarce one. A good example for me is edgerx...... he sometimes sells books with the label in the Mylar and even goes so far as to give the book his OWN grade anyway. Sometimes he will say that he felt CGC overgraded the book and give it a lower grade. I got an ASM 26(9.0) from him once with the label.... he agreed with their grade and it was a very nice book. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[drotto]

I would think that the higher up the grade scale, and the older the book the more accurate the census. I am submitting GA stuff, not just for the grade, but also for the preservation aspect. Many of the GA books look good, and still do feel good in hand, but I am afraid of handling them too much and causing more damage.

 

I would bet the highest number of ghost books are modern and bronze age stuff with a grades between 8.5 and 9.4. Grades where pressing and getting the bump can really mean a large value difference. In addition with modern books, the only grades that are really collectable are 9.6 and higher. Too many of the GA and SA stuff would require restoration in addition to the other services to get a significant grade bump, and then would risk the dreaded purple label.

[mschmidt]

Been thinking about this over the last couple of weeks and curious to see what people's thoughts are. How many census entries are ghosts? For the uninitiated, ghosts are entries in the census that are books that have been cracked out and either resubbed or are sitting raw in someone's collection and the label was never turned into CGC to get the entry removed. I know there is no way to know. No way to even make an "educated guess". But I'm just curious to see some discussion around this.

 

I would think it would skew heavier to the higher grades as that is where most of the CPR action takes place (I think). As the years go by I think the number gets bigger and bigger and makes the census less and less useful. But just how big is that number?

 

I'd think very few of the 9.8s and higher has been cracked out so that leaves pretty much everything else. I'd guess 20% of all the books are graded 9.8 considering how many modern/copper books get graded compared to older books. I'd guess 25% of sub 9.8 books get cracked for various reasons so that gives me 20% of all books are "ghost".

 

I think it depends on your definition of "ghost" books. I probably have a couple hundred cracked-out CGC books in my personal collection, all of which have the CGC label in the back - these books still exist in the CGC census, but aren't technically slabbed anymore.

 

If you're talking specifically about books that have been cracked where the label has been discarded, wasn't included in the resub, etc, 20% of the census is waaay too high of a number.

 

A cracked out book sitting in someone's collection that still has the label with it is still a ghost. It is no longer slabbed. IF it were to be slabbed again, it would be slabbed as a new submission and a new entry created for that same book with whatever the new grade is (even if it's the same grade as the previous time). 1 book - 2 census entries = a ghost.

 

But if it was slabbed again (by me) I would include the old label with the resub - so 1 book = 1 census entry.

[LordRahl]

I would think that the higher up the grade scale, and the older the book the more accurate the census. I am submitting GA stuff, not just for the grade, but also for the preservation aspect. Many of the GA books look good, and still do feel good in hand, but I am afraid of handling them too much and causing more damage.

 

I would bet the highest number of ghost books are modern and bronze age stuff with a grades between 8.5 and 9.4. Grades where pressing and getting the bump can really mean a large value difference. In addition with modern books, the only grades that are really collectable are 9.6 and higher. Too many of the GA and SA stuff would require restoration in addition to the other services to get a significant grade bump, and then would risk the dreaded purple label.

 

I'm pretty sure it's the exact opposite of this. I doubt many people are resubbing moderns for a .2 or even .4 bump. Just not financially viable except for maybe a handful of books. On the other hand a silver age book in 9.2 getting bumped to 9.4 or 9.6 could be a significant amount of money. Consider a random book like ASM 24 sells for under a grand in 9.2 and almost $3K in 9.6, lots of incentive for a CPR. No resto needed, just pressing and sometimes not even that. If it is a borderline book it could be resubbed just to see if it will get the higher grade on a different day. I know for a fact this happens a lot, what I don't know is how many people are turning in the old label to CGC to have it removed from the census.

[Iceman399]

I would bet the highest number of ghost books are modern and bronze age stuff with a grades between 8.5 and 9.4. Grades where pressing and getting the bump can really mean a large value difference. In addition with modern books, the only grades that are really collectable are 9.6 and higher. Too many of the GA and SA stuff would require restoration in addition to the other services to get a significant grade bump, and then would risk the dreaded purple label.

 

Unless its a modern modern such as a TWD 1 anyone cracking, pressing and resubbing a modern 8.5 isn't playing the game right.

[LordRahl]

Been thinking about this over the last couple of weeks and curious to see what people's thoughts are. How many census entries are ghosts? For the uninitiated, ghosts are entries in the census that are books that have been cracked out and either resubbed or are sitting raw in someone's collection and the label was never turned into CGC to get the entry removed. I know there is no way to know. No way to even make an "educated guess". But I'm just curious to see some discussion around this.

 

I would think it would skew heavier to the higher grades as that is where most of the CPR action takes place (I think). As the years go by I think the number gets bigger and bigger and makes the census less and less useful. But just how big is that number?

 

I'd think very few of the 9.8s and higher has been cracked out so that leaves pretty much everything else. I'd guess 20% of all the books are graded 9.8 considering how many modern/copper books get graded compared to older books. I'd guess 25% of sub 9.8 books get cracked for various reasons so that gives me 20% of all books are "ghost".

 

I think it depends on your definition of "ghost" books. I probably have a couple hundred cracked-out CGC books in my personal collection, all of which have the CGC label in the back - these books still exist in the CGC census, but aren't technically slabbed anymore.

 

If you're talking specifically about books that have been cracked where the label has been discarded, wasn't included in the resub, etc, 20% of the census is waaay too high of a number.

 

A cracked out book sitting in someone's collection that still has the label with it is still a ghost. It is no longer slabbed. IF it were to be slabbed again, it would be slabbed as a new submission and a new entry created for that same book with whatever the new grade is (even if it's the same grade as the previous time). 1 book - 2 census entries = a ghost.

 

But if it was slabbed again (by me) I would include the old label with the resub - so 1 book = 1 census entry.

 

Yes of course but I'm specifically talking about books where the labels aren't being turned in. You would turn it in but what I don't know is how many people are turning them in

[THE_BEYONDER]

Great question and I've wondered this as well. Wish CGC would reinstitute some incentive to have folks return the original label so the census is a tad more accurate. A little OT but census related, recently bought a CGC Marvel Spotlight 28 (30 cent variant) 8.5 SS by stan lee. After receiving the book I wanted to see how many were on the census. There were none. I'm planning on calling at some point to request a correction but had me wondering how many data entry errors there are compounding the problem. In the IT world we call this garbage in garbage out.

 

It's possible the census just hasn't been updated yet.

[jimjum12]

I would think that the higher up the grade scale, and the older the book the more accurate the census. I am submitting GA stuff, not just for the grade, but also for the preservation aspect. Many of the GA books look good, and still do feel good in hand, but I am afraid of handling them too much and causing more damage.

 

I would bet the highest number of ghost books are modern and bronze age stuff with a grades between 8.5 and 9.4. Grades where pressing and getting the bump can really mean a large value difference. In addition with modern books, the only grades that are really collectable are 9.6 and higher. Too many of the GA and SA stuff would require restoration in addition to the other services to get a significant grade bump, and then would risk the dreaded purple label.

 

I'm pretty sure it's the exact opposite of this. I doubt many people are resubbing moderns for a .2 or even .4 bump. Just not financially viable except for maybe a handful of books. On the other hand a silver age book in 9.2 getting bumped to 9.4 or 9.6 could be a significant amount of money. Consider a random book like ASM 24 sells for under a grand in 9.2 and almost $3K in 9.6, lots of incentive for a CPR. No resto needed, just pressing and sometimes not even that. If it is a borderline book it could be resubbed just to see if it will get the higher grade on a different day. I know for a fact this happens a lot, what I don't know is how many people are turning in the old label to CGC to have it removed from the census.

 

.... and, ironically, it would be to that person's benefit to return the label. The less examples in a given grade on the census increases the perceived value of the others by increasing their "scarcity". Now if you're a person who is on a buying spree, then leaving the census overinflated may help your bottom line. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[drotto]

I would think that the higher up the grade scale, and the older the book the more accurate the census. I am submitting GA stuff, not just for the grade, but also for the preservation aspect. Many of the GA books look good, and still do feel good in hand, but I am afraid of handling them too much and causing more damage.

 

I would bet the highest number of ghost books are modern and bronze age stuff with a grades between 8.5 and 9.4. Grades where pressing and getting the bump can really mean a large value difference. In addition with modern books, the only grades that are really collectable are 9.6 and higher. Too many of the GA and SA stuff would require restoration in addition to the other services to get a significant grade bump, and then would risk the dreaded purple label.

 

I'm pretty sure it's the exact opposite of this. I doubt many people are resubbing moderns for a .2 or even .4 bump. Just not financially viable except for maybe a handful of books. On the other hand a silver age book in 9.2 getting bumped to 9.4 or 9.6 could be a significant amount of money. Consider a random book like ASM 24 sells for under a grand in 9.2 and almost $3K in 9.6, lots of incentive for a CPR. No resto needed, just pressing and sometimes not even that. If it is a borderline book it could be resubbed just to see if it will get the higher grade on a different day. I know for a fact this happens a lot, what I don't know is how many people are turning in the old label to CGC to have it removed from the census.

 

.... and, ironically, it would be to that person's benefit to return the label. The less examples in a given grade on the census increases the perceived value of the others by increasing their "scarcity". Now if you're a person who is on a buying spree, then leaving the census overinflated may help your bottom line. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

jimbo is on a buying spree watch out!!!!

[MustEatBrains]

Great question and I've wondered this as well. Wish CGC would reinstitute some incentive to have folks return the original label so the census is a tad more accurate. A little OT but census related, recently bought a CGC Marvel Spotlight 28 (30 cent variant) 8.5 SS by stan lee. After receiving the book I wanted to see how many were on the census. There were none. I'm planning on calling at some point to request a correction but had me wondering how many data entry errors there are compounding the problem. In the IT world we call this garbage in garbage out.

 

It's possible the census just hasn't been updated yet.

 

I don't think so. I checked when I received it a couple of months back and did a look-up and think it was graded a few years ago last year.(correction looks like it was signed in 3/28/15) Interestingly now when I do a look-up the book comes up as not found.

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

It's a ghost!!!!

[porcupine48]

BOO!

[Buzzetta]

I believe that the numbers of ghosts on the census are higher on keys like AF15 and Hulk 181. There is a greater incentive to CPR a book or do a straight resubmit.

[Firespitter]

I had a couple of Dave Stevens covers that I deslabbed. I momentarily thought of asking on here "what do I do with the labels?" but immediately had a precognitive vision of everyone telling me where I should stick the labels.

 

So I just threw them in the trash when cleaning up one day. They weren't anything valuable or 9.8's. So...

I only have about 40 slabs....so that would be 5% in my case...but I've been eyeballing a couple of my Iron Man's to de-slab to improve the quality of my raws.

-Terry

[jimbo_707]

I would think that most people who re-submit send the labels back, because a ghost entry would hurt the value of the book.

 

I do think many people crack books out to enjoy raw but keep the labels. I'm not sure I'd call those books ghosts given that they're not duplicated in the census.

 

The question is moot, though, because I think that for every so-called ghost in the census, there are numerous copies out there that have never been slabbed. Dealers who say, for instance, that only 10 copies of a book are known to exist simply because there are only 10 copies in the census are being disingenuous. If there are 10 copies in the census, there are probably more like 100 in existence (and that's for books that are valuable enough to be routinely slabbed).

[Lethal_Collector]

Is it the norm to include the old label when subbing the book after it's been cracked for a signing or to be pressed?

 

If it's not, should it be?

 

* This is under the assumption that if included the old label would be removed from the census. *

 

I figured if I needed to tell CGC to remove a label from the census, I'd just make a post in the Ask CGC forum and provide a pic of the removed label and book outside of the case. Then maybe turn the label into some sort of bumper sticker

 

 

Jerome

[mschmidt]

Is it the norm to include the old label when subbing the book after it's been cracked for a signing or to be pressed?

 

If it's not, should it be?

 

* This is under the assumption that if included the old label would be removed from the census. *

 

I figured if I needed to tell CGC to remove a label from the census, I'd just make a post in the Ask CGC forum and provide a pic of the removed label and book outside of the case. Then maybe turn the label into some sort of bumper sticker

 

No, the label needs to be returned to CGC if you want it removed from the census.

[joeypost]

I would think that the higher up the grade scale, and the older the book the more accurate the census. I am submitting GA stuff, not just for the grade, but also for the preservation aspect. Many of the GA books look good, and still do feel good in hand, but I am afraid of handling them too much and causing more damage.

 

I would bet the highest number of ghost books are modern and bronze age stuff with a grades between 8.5 and 9.4. Grades where pressing and getting the bump can really mean a large value difference. In addition with modern books, the only grades that are really collectable are 9.6 and higher. Too many of the GA and SA stuff would require restoration in addition to the other services to get a significant grade bump, and then would risk the dreaded purple label.

 

I'm pretty sure it's the exact opposite of this. I doubt many people are resubbing moderns for a .2 or even .4 bump. Just not financially viable except for maybe a handful of books. On the other hand a silver age book in 9.2 getting bumped to 9.4 or 9.6 could be a significant amount of money. Consider a random book like ASM 24 sells for under a grand in 9.2 and almost $3K in 9.6, lots of incentive for a CPR. No resto needed, just pressing and sometimes not even that. If it is a borderline book it could be resubbed just to see if it will get the higher grade on a different day. I know for a fact this happens a lot, what I don't know is how many people are turning in the old label to CGC to have it removed from the census.

 

You would be surprised.

[CrocHntr]

I would think that most people who re-submit send the labels back, because a ghost entry would hurt the value of the book.

 

I'd think so too. But certainly not always the case. A while ago I tracked a 5.0 Sensation 1 for sale on Comicconnect, owner had it de-slabbed and pressed, and it came back a 5.5. Both Cert #'s are still in the CGC Census today. You'd think this is a book where folks would take care not to over-inflate the census, but certainly not what happens even with dealers.

 

 

I figured if I needed to tell CGC to remove a label from the census, I'd just make a post in the Ask CGC forum and provide a pic of the removed label and book outside of the case. Then maybe turn the label into some sort of bumper sticker

 

 

Jerome

 

I wish it were that easy to prove to CGC when duplication exists. When I uncovered the duplicate books and contacted CGC to provide what I thought was undeniable proof of the duplication, CGC responded with:

 

Both show in the Census, but without the actual original label there is no way to 100% prove they are the same book, so we cannot remove it. We never take scans as proof as they can be easily doctored and are never used as proof of anything by CGC.

 

I am sorry, but since whomever pressed and re-submitted the book did not provide the original label, the Census on this book will remain as is.

 

I completely understand this from CGC's perspective, but it just shows how important returning the original label is to maintaining a remotely accurate census count.

 

Original Thread - Sen1

 

 

[NP_Gresham]

Almost all of my Pre Hero Strange Tales were cracked out of the slabs. I have not, nor do I intend to press them and/or resub.. There is a certain feel to holding a nice book in a Mylar sleeve and fullback that a slab can not match. I keep the labels with the book in case I sell them, so the new owner knows the books history.

I would never return labels unless it is a resub. I can't even get CGC to label my price variants right. When they refund my shipping costs for their label errors, I will reconsider sending back the old labels.