Understanding print run calculations for ratio variants...

[Kaboom]

I am not sure if anyone remembers this, but back in the day the publishers were required to print in their periodicals (comics included) the number of copies sold, sent out for free, and other criteria once a year. I have to dig through some old comics, but I believe they reported their highest printed issue for the series as well as the lowest printed issue for the series. Does anyone else remember this? I was a cover to cover reader, especially on long car trips. This was all before the death of the news stand though.

 

Yes, old issues did print a circulation statement once per years that gave things like, number of that issue printed, average number of issues for the past twelve months, etc. I have not seen that box in years.

 

I am guessing the death of the news stand caused it to go away. Not many news stands any more so no need for it. I am guessing.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I am not sure if anyone remembers this, but back in the day the publishers were required to print in their periodicals (comics included) the number of copies sold, sent out for free, and other criteria once a year. I have to dig through some old comics, but I believe they reported their highest printed issue for the series as well as the lowest printed issue for the series. Does anyone else remember this? I was a cover to cover reader, especially on long car trips. This was all before the death of the news stand though.

 

Yes, old issues did print a circulation statement once per years that gave things like, number of that issue printed, average number of issues for the past twelve months, etc. I have not seen that box in years.

 

I am guessing the death of the news stand caused it to go away. Not many news stands any more so no need for it. I am guessing.

 

 

Comics that were shipped via the USPS' Second Class rate, like most magazines for many decades, were required to have the Statements of Ownership printed in them, once a year. If they were no longer shipped through the USPS Second Class rate, there was no longer a requirement to file SsoO.

 

Doesn't have anything to do with the newsstand, which received distribution through the network of newsstand distributors, like DC's Independent News.

 

Here's the form:

 

https://about.usps.com/forms/ps3526.pdf

 

And here's more info:

 

http://blog.windowbook.com/2009/09/29/periodicals-mailers-time-to-file-statement-of-ownership/

 

 

 

[Aweandlorder]

How on earth is this thread ONLY 5 pages long??

[Prince Namor]

More than a few boardies with knowledge of the print industry have come in and stated many times that publishers do not grossly overprint books that no one has actually ordered as a rule of thumb.

-J.

 

No, you had one person come in and reiterate the same nonsense you've been trying to pass as fact. Unless you're the printer, you have no way of knowing what Marvel prints.

 

However, I've shown three major variant sales by Marvel in the last 6 months, which included 1:25's, 1:50's and even a few 1:100's.

 

 

 

[Jaydogrules]

More than a few boardies with knowledge of the print industry have come in and stated many times that publishers do not grossly overprint books that no one has actually ordered as a rule of thumb.

-J.

 

No, you had one person come in and reiterate the same nonsense you've been trying to pass as fact. Unless you're the printer, you have no way of knowing what Marvel prints.

 

However, I've shown three major variant sales by Marvel in the last 6 months, which included 1:25's, 1:50's and even a few 1:100's.

 

 

 

No.

 

At least three have stated this (and it is also consistent with common sense), and they also have explained why there are the occasional overages on what are in actuality small quantities of books relative to what publishers that are sold off in subsequent Diamond sales (most of which aren't even incentive based variants , BTW).

 

Your serious problem is that you would rather promulgate your fear-based agenda. I have no clue why you wish to promote so much time and energy to this bizarre cause. Yes I think your (ridiculous) opinion that publishers deliberately overprint books by multiples of multiples that retailers are not ordering is well documented enough around these parts, so I see no need to engage you beyond this one post on the topic here.

 

-J.

 

 

[revat]

More than a few boardies with knowledge of the print industry have come in and stated many times that publishers do not grossly overprint books that no one has actually ordered as a rule of thumb.

-J.

 

No, you had one person come in and reiterate the same nonsense you've been trying to pass as fact. Unless you're the printer, you have no way of knowing what Marvel prints.

 

However, I've shown three major variant sales by Marvel in the last 6 months, which included 1:25's, 1:50's and even a few 1:100's.

 

 

 

No.

 

At least three have stated this (and it is also consistent with common sense), and they also have explained why there are the occasional overages on what are in actuality small quantities of books relative to what publishers that are sold off in subsequent Diamond sales (most of which aren't even incentive based variants , BTW).

 

Your serious problem is that you would rather promulgate your fear-based agenda. I have no clue why you wish to promote so much time and energy to this bizarre cause. Yes I think your (ridiculous) opinion that publishers deliberately overprint books by multiples of multiples that retailers are not ordering is well documented enough around these parts, so I see no need to engage you beyond this one post on the topic here.

 

-J.

 

 

My favorite food is burritos. What did I have for lunch today? yesterday? the day before? If you have no other information, I guess it makes the most sense to just always guess I had a burrito for lunch, and hope the answer might be burrito more than anything else. But is it 8 out of 10? 3 of 10? 0 of 10 because my wife makes them for dinner? And how much is your guess worth if it has never been/confirmed or denied? but there are pictures on perez Hilton of me eating burgers, Chinese food, and falafel in the daylight?

 

 

[Prince Namor]

More than a few boardies with knowledge of the print industry have come in and stated many times that publishers do not grossly overprint books that no one has actually ordered as a rule of thumb.

-J.

 

No, you had one person come in and reiterate the same nonsense you've been trying to pass as fact. Unless you're the printer, you have no way of knowing what Marvel prints.

 

However, I've shown three major variant sales by Marvel in the last 6 months, which included 1:25's, 1:50's and even a few 1:100's.

 

 

 

No.

 

At least three have stated this (and it is also consistent with common sense),

 

Name them.

 

The only one Ive seen is Paul427 or whatever his name was and he was speculating on how he believes it works, the SAME AS YOU. In fact, HE's who you've gotten this idea from, isn't he?

 

He isn't the printer, so he's mearly guessing. Same as you.

 

and they also have explained why there are the occasional overages on what are in actuality small quantities of books relative to what publishers that are sold off in subsequent Diamond sales (most of which aren't even incentive based variants , BTW).

 

That's what they BELIEVE. They have no PROOF.

 

MY proof, is the actual overages from Marvel's regular sales - what 3 in the last 6 months now, which proves they DO NOT print to any specific number. They have plenty of overages.

 

 

Your serious problem is that you would rather promulgate your fear-based agenda. I have no clue why you wish to promote so much time and energy to this bizarre cause. Yes I think your (ridiculous) opinion that publishers deliberately overprint books by multiples of multiples that retailers are not ordering is well documented enough around these parts, so I see no need to engage you beyond this one post on the topic here.

-J.

 

It's truth based agenda. And I'm on it because you continue to spread false data.

[Doktor]

It's worth 1 burrito. Because reasons and things. Mostly because now I want a burrito. Damn you.

[RockMyAmadeus]

More than a few boardies with knowledge of the print industry have come in and stated many times that publishers do not grossly overprint books that no one has actually ordered as a rule of thumb.

-J.

 

No, you had one person come in and reiterate the same nonsense you've been trying to pass as fact. Unless you're the printer, you have no way of knowing what Marvel prints.

 

However, I've shown three major variant sales by Marvel in the last 6 months, which included 1:25's, 1:50's and even a few 1:100's.

 

 

 

 

Along with consistently misrepresenting what people have said, attempting to sway the undiscerning, by saying things like "publishers do not grossly overprint books that no one has actually ordered", which no one, in any of these arguments, has actually said.

 

It seeks to discredit opposing viewpoints by representing those viewpoints in ways that distort and mischaracterize them, at best.

 

It is not honest disagreement and discussion made in good faith; it is dishonest misrepresentation made in bad faith, and it's been done over and over again.

 

It is a pattern of disingenuous and combative argumentativeness that ought to have been addressed long, long ago. Frankly, Jay, you ought to consider yourself very fortunate to have not received a strike thus far.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

More than a few boardies with knowledge of the print industry have come in and stated many times that publishers do not grossly overprint books that no one has actually ordered as a rule of thumb.

-J.

 

No, you had one person come in and reiterate the same nonsense you've been trying to pass as fact. Unless you're the printer, you have no way of knowing what Marvel prints.

 

However, I've shown three major variant sales by Marvel in the last 6 months, which included 1:25's, 1:50's and even a few 1:100's.

 

 

 

No.

 

At least three have stated this (and it is also consistent with common sense),

 

Name them.

 

The only one Ive seen is Paul427 or whatever his name was and he was speculating on how he believes it works, the SAME AS YOU. In fact, HE's who you've gotten this idea from, isn't he?

 

He isn't the printer, so he's mearly guessing. Same as you.

 

and they also have explained why there are the occasional overages on what are in actuality small quantities of books relative to what publishers that are sold off in subsequent Diamond sales (most of which aren't even incentive based variants , BTW).

 

That's what they BELIEVE. They have no PROOF.

 

MY proof, is the actual overages from Marvel's regular sales - what 3 in the last 6 months now, which proves they DO NOT print to any specific number. They have plenty of overages.

 

 

Your serious problem is that you would rather promulgate your fear-based agenda. I have no clue why you wish to promote so much time and energy to this bizarre cause. Yes I think your (ridiculous) opinion that publishers deliberately overprint books by multiples of multiples that retailers are not ordering is well documented enough around these parts, so I see no need to engage you beyond this one post on the topic here.

-J.

 

It's truth based agenda. And I'm on it because you continue to spread false data.

 

 

Yes.

 

Specifically, "name them."

 

The only thing being insisted on, here, is proof. Proof of the claims, instead of just claims.

 

Is that really that hard? To scientifically, dispassionately prove those claims, without making the discussion personal? Is that not reasonable?

 

It is, and everyone reading this should hold everyone posting here to that standard.

 

 

 

[ygogolak]

How on earth is this thread ONLY 5 pages long??

 

...and we're off and running!

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

More than a few boardies with knowledge of the print industry have come in and stated many times that publishers do not grossly overprint books that no one has actually ordered as a rule of thumb.

-J.

 

No, you had one person come in and reiterate the same nonsense you've been trying to pass as fact. Unless you're the printer, you have no way of knowing what Marvel prints.

 

However, I've shown three major variant sales by Marvel in the last 6 months, which included 1:25's, 1:50's and even a few 1:100's.

 

 

Have any of those sales indicated the quantity available of any of those books? Is it possible there's only a small number of each available, what would be the difference between what was earned as part of the incentive program and the amount in X number of cases, where X is the minimum number required to fulfill the required incentives?

[revat]

More than a few boardies with knowledge of the print industry have come in and stated many times that publishers do not grossly overprint books that no one has actually ordered as a rule of thumb.

-J.

 

No, you had one person come in and reiterate the same nonsense you've been trying to pass as fact. Unless you're the printer, you have no way of knowing what Marvel prints.

 

However, I've shown three major variant sales by Marvel in the last 6 months, which included 1:25's, 1:50's and even a few 1:100's.

 

 

Have any of those sales indicated the quantity available of any of those books? Is it possible there's only a small number of each available, what would be the difference between what was earned as part of the incentive program and the amount in X number of cases, where X is the minimum number required to fulfill the required incentives?

 

well we don't know how many were needed to fulfill the incentive orders, how many extras may have been ordered for other reasons, how many more might have been ordered to reach a discount or minimum order threshold (which might be tied to one or more variant or comic), what percentage are printed as overrages for extra replacement copies, how many more might have been printed to round to the nearest case, how many of the extras were actually used to replace faulty copies at the printer. None of these numbers are ever released, so we have no data points to work with to estimate or create even the crudest of models or evaluate the effectiveness of said models.

 

So there's nothing to compare, even if you knew how many were available for sale in the these 'special' variant sales. You wouldn't know how many were given to employees/charity, destroyed, recycled, etc.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

One thing that I have heard is that Diamond doesn't generally make anything available for sale online nationwide unless they have a decent stock of it in hand.

 

If they only have, say, 20 copies of something, that waits for a Diamond retailer sale at a distribution center.

 

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

More than a few boardies with knowledge of the print industry have come in and stated many times that publishers do not grossly overprint books that no one has actually ordered as a rule of thumb.

-J.

 

No, you had one person come in and reiterate the same nonsense you've been trying to pass as fact. Unless you're the printer, you have no way of knowing what Marvel prints.

 

However, I've shown three major variant sales by Marvel in the last 6 months, which included 1:25's, 1:50's and even a few 1:100's.

 

 

Have any of those sales indicated the quantity available of any of those books? Is it possible there's only a small number of each available, what would be the difference between what was earned as part of the incentive program and the amount in X number of cases, where X is the minimum number required to fulfill the required incentives?

 

well we don't know how many were needed to fulfill the incentive orders, how many extras may have been ordered for other reasons, how many more might have been ordered to reach a discount or minimum order threshold (which might be tied to one or more variant or comic), what percentage are printed as overrages for extra replacement copies, how many more might have been printed to round to the nearest case, how many of the extras were actually used to replace faulty copies at the printer. None of these numbers are ever released, so we have no data points to work with to estimate or create even the crudest of models or evaluate the effectiveness of said models.

 

So there's nothing to compare, even if you knew how many were available for sale in the these 'special' variant sales. You wouldn't know how many were given to employees/charity, destroyed, recycled, etc.

My point, in case it was unclear, was that, outside of clear evidence that a large number of a specific incentive being available through such a sale, the variant sales don't prove that there are a significant number of copies printed over the quantity needed to fulfill orders through the direct market.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

Applying the distribution ratios to Comichron numbers to arrive at some sort of estimate of the print runs of the incentive variants is no more...and, frankly, no less...accurate than applying the number of organic tomatoes I bought last week to the Comichron numbers to arrive at the same conclusion. In both cases, you would be trying to apply completely unrelated numbers to arrive at "estimates."

You've made ridiculous suggestions like this before. And they're still ridiculous. You're suggesting that the quantity of a book that's ordered is in no way going to affect how many of that book are printed? Seriously?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Applying the distribution ratios to Comichron numbers to arrive at some sort of estimate of the print runs of the incentive variants is no more...and, frankly, no less...accurate than applying the number of organic tomatoes I bought last week to the Comichron numbers to arrive at the same conclusion. In both cases, you would be trying to apply completely unrelated numbers to arrive at "estimates."

You've made ridiculous suggestions like this before. And they're still ridiculous.

 

 

Such a charmer, you are. No benefit of the doubt, no humility, no "what do you mean by that?", just straight to the insults. Lovely.

 

I would ask you to cite examples of these previous "ridiculous statements", but everyone reading this knows that proving claims around here isn't required, expected, or even wanted. Reason? Common courtesy? Responsible comments? Eff that, this is the CGC board!

 

 

 

You're suggesting that the quantity of a book that's ordered is in no way going to affect how many of that book are printed? Seriously?

 

 

No.

 

Not in the slightest.

 

I didn't say anything remotely like that.

 

Read it again.

 

I'll give you an important hint: I'm not talking about a (one) book.

 

Here's another important hint: the "Comichron numbers" includes (generally) all copies sold of that particular book, including all variants, the first month it's for sale.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

More than a few boardies with knowledge of the print industry have come in and stated many times that publishers do not grossly overprint books that no one has actually ordered as a rule of thumb.

-J.

 

No, you had one person come in and reiterate the same nonsense you've been trying to pass as fact. Unless you're the printer, you have no way of knowing what Marvel prints.

 

However, I've shown three major variant sales by Marvel in the last 6 months, which included 1:25's, 1:50's and even a few 1:100's.

 

 

Have any of those sales indicated the quantity available of any of those books? Is it possible there's only a small number of each available, what would be the difference between what was earned as part of the incentive program and the amount in X number of cases, where X is the minimum number required to fulfill the required incentives?

 

well we don't know how many were needed to fulfill the incentive orders, how many extras may have been ordered for other reasons, how many more might have been ordered to reach a discount or minimum order threshold (which might be tied to one or more variant or comic), what percentage are printed as overrages for extra replacement copies, how many more might have been printed to round to the nearest case, how many of the extras were actually used to replace faulty copies at the printer. None of these numbers are ever released, so we have no data points to work with to estimate or create even the crudest of models or evaluate the effectiveness of said models.

 

So there's nothing to compare, even if you knew how many were available for sale in the these 'special' variant sales. You wouldn't know how many were given to employees/charity, destroyed, recycled, etc.

My point, in case it was unclear, was that, outside of clear evidence that a large number of a specific incentive being available through such a sale, the variant sales don't prove that there are a significant number of copies printed over the quantity needed to fulfill orders through the direct market.

 

 

No, they don't prove it...but they reasonably suggest it.

 

As I said before, I believe that Diamond doesn't offer incentive variants nationwide if they only have a handful (10, 20, 30, etc.) available.

 

I've got, myself, dozens and dozens of individual incentive variants that I purchased long after their initial sale and distribution. And that wasn't through Diamond, but Wizard, making me, depending on the arrangement Marvel, Wizard, and Diamond had, a tertiary source.

 

And I am not the only one who has reported that they've been able to do this (that is, purchase not-inconsequential numbers of incentive variants after their initial distribution.)

 

But let's not use qualified terms like "large" and put hard numbers down. What do you mean by "large number"? 50? 100? 500?

 

 

 

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

Applying the distribution ratios to Comichron numbers to arrive at some sort of estimate of the print runs of the incentive variants is no more...and, frankly, no less...accurate than applying the number of organic tomatoes I bought last week to the Comichron numbers to arrive at the same conclusion. In both cases, you would be trying to apply completely unrelated numbers to arrive at "estimates."

You've made ridiculous suggestions like this before. And they're still ridiculous.

 

Such a charmer, you are. No benefit of the doubt, no humility, no "what do you mean by that?", just straight to the insults. Lovely.

 

I would ask you to cite examples of these previous "ridiculous statements", but everyone reading this knows that proving claims around here isn't required, expected, or even wanted. Reason? Common courtesy? Responsible comments? Eff that, this is the CGC board!

 

You've got over 47,000. I have neither the time nor the desire to go through your posts to find the examples that are similar to this. Suffice to say that it was on the topic of print runs, perhaps in the Moderns Heating Up thread.

 

You're suggesting that the quantity of a book that's ordered is in no way going to affect how many of that book are printed? Seriously?

 

No.

 

Not in the slightest.

 

I didn't say anything remotely like that.

 

Read it again.

 

I'll give you an important hint: I'm not talking about a (one) book.

 

Here's another important hint: the "Comichron numbers" includes (generally) all copies sold of that particular book, including all variants, the first month it's for sale.

 

You're equating the influence of organic tomatoes purchases to comichron numbers. So either, yes, you did say something like that, or (to be fair, I hadn't considered this) you think that organic tomato purchases are far more relevant to the setting of print runs in comics than is commonly realized. I'll leave it to you to clarify which it is.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Applying the distribution ratios to Comichron numbers to arrive at some sort of estimate of the print runs of the incentive variants is no more...and, frankly, no less...accurate than applying the number of organic tomatoes I bought last week to the Comichron numbers to arrive at the same conclusion. In both cases, you would be trying to apply completely unrelated numbers to arrive at "estimates."

You've made ridiculous suggestions like this before. And they're still ridiculous.

 

 

Such a charmer, you are. No benefit of the doubt, no humility, no "what do you mean by that?", just straight to the insults. Lovely.

 

I would ask you to cite examples of these previous "ridiculous statements", but everyone reading this knows that proving claims around here isn't required, expected, or even wanted. Reason? Common courtesy? Responsible comments? Eff that, this is the CGC board!

 

You've got over 47,000. I have neither the time nor the desire to go through your posts to find the examples that are similar to this. Suffice to say that it was on the topic of print runs, perhaps in the Moderns Heating Up thread.

 

 

Naturally! Asking that people to prove their claims around here, which is the reasonable and responsible thing to do, is like asking them for their first-born child.

 

Perfectly expected answer from you. Not surprising in the slightest.

 

 

You're suggesting that the quantity of a book that's ordered is in no way going to affect how many of that book are printed? Seriously?

 

 

No.

 

Not in the slightest.

 

I didn't say anything remotely like that.

 

Read it again.

 

I'll give you an important hint: I'm not talking about a (one) book.

 

Here's another important hint: the "Comichron numbers" includes (generally) all copies sold of that particular book, including all variants, the first month it's for sale.

 

 

You're equating the influence of organic tomatoes purchases to comichron numbers. So either, yes, you did say something like that, or (to be fair, I hadn't considered this) you think that organic tomato purchases are far more relevant to the setting of print runs in comics than is commonly realized. I'll leave it to you to clarify which it is.

 

 

You still don't understand what I said, you're misrepresenting what I said (no one is "equating the influence of organic tomatoes (sic) purchases to comichron numbers", whatever that may mean in plain English), you've changed the parameters of your question/complaint (and I bet you're not even aware of it!), and since you're not interested in being reasonable, I'll leave it to you to either figure it out on your own, or move on.

 

Here's a hint: "organic tomatoes" has nothing to do with the discussion, other than demonstrating how much the DISTRIBUTION RATIOS of the INCENTIVE VARIANTS have to do with the SALES NUMBERS of the REGULAR books, as reported to and by Comichron. That is: nothing. There are some key words in there, and I've capitalized them for your benefit.

 

Substitute any of the following for organic tomatoes, and you'll get the same answer:

 

1. The times my dog farted in the last week.

 

2. The number of leaves that are on my mulberry tree.

 

3. The number of words misspelled in contestants' answers on Jeopardy last night.

 

4. The amount of chickpeas consumed as hummus by the population of Cairo in the last 24 hours.

 

etc.

 

The numbers are not related to each other, despite the repeated protestations of those who don't know better.

 

Try not to focus on the organic tomatoes: they're not relevant.

 

You might consider your tone and comments a little better, but I know that's asking much of the CGC boards.