Marvel Comics #1

[thecollectron]

Bill Everett might have been able to provide more information but sadly died just before the comics and covers were discovered. I've always considered the books the same as ashcans.

 

Printed but not published for distribution.

 

 

I've never owned any ashcans but I thought they had covers that were printed for copyright purposes and the interiors were coverless copies of comics that had already been published.

I guess Fawcett's Flash Comics #1 is considered an ashcan, even though it had original content, because it wasn't intended for distribution.

MPFW had original content and it sounds like it was printed for distribution but didn't get that far.

There's an aschcan thread out there somewhere.

[N e r V]

Yes I understand the difference.

 

I never meant to say it was a ashcan.

 

Only ashcan like in the sense it was a printed comic but not distributed.

 

Unless some evidence pops up (which seems unlikely after over 40 years past its discovery) that these books were ever distributed in scale I'm guessing that the dozen (12?) or so copies were just samples prepared and it looks like it never made it past that point.

 

It they were already to distribute them as planned there should have been hundreds or likely thousands of copies printed in advance.

 

I'm guessing the whole concept died before ever being seriously ready to launch.

 

Again we'll probably never know the details since the people who knew are now long dead.

[N e r V]

As for it being the first appearance of Sub-Mariner I think the Overstreet listing is probably as correct as possible with Marvel comics #1 containing the first newstand appeance and Motion Picture Funnies #1 getting the first appearance of the character.

I also like they put it in the promotional comics section.

 

 

 

[sfcityduck]

Personally, I think MPFW 1 is very akin to an "ashcan." There are far more similarities than differences. They are both undistributed production items.

 

An "ashcan" is an undistributed limited print publication created by a publisher to secure the rights to a title. Sometimes an "ashcan" will have a new cover and reprinted interior, sometimes it will have original interior contents (ala Flash/Thrill 1). The cover of an ashcan may be b&w or color, and the interiors usually are b&w.

 

MPFW 1 is an undistributed limited print publication created for a completely unknown purpose. It has a color cover and b&w interior, which, like Flash/Thrill 1, is original content.

 

The main argument against MPFW 1 being an "ashcan" is that the title was never registered. I also am unaware of any other "ashcans" ever being created by Funnies Inc.

 

So the SPECULATION is that it was intended as either an internal proof of concept or a sample for use in promoting the concept externally. Given that no copy of the comic has ever been found outside of the publisher files, at most the evidence only supports that it was an internal proof of concept. My SPECULATION is it was most likely was an internal proof of concept done as a prelude to creating marketing materials for external use. But, I SPECULATE, Funnies Inc. got the Timely contract and abandoned the plan. IMHO, this best fits the facts.

 

In sum, my opinions are:

 

(1) MPFW 1 was not a promotional comic because there is no evidence of external distribution);

 

(2) MPFW 1 could have been intended to be an "ashcan," but that doesn't seem to have been Funnies Inc.'s business practice and, if so, there was no need for the covers for 2-4; thus,

 

(3) MPFW 1 was most likely just an internal proof of concept, a glorified mock up, that was never externally distributed; consequently,

 

(4) MC 1 is correctly denoted as the first "real" published and distributed appearance of Submariner 1.

 

But MPFW 1 is very very cool. Just like the ashcans are very very cool. Just like other production materials, most notably original art, are very very cool and rarer items than externally distributed materials.

 

[sfcityduck]

One final point:

 

The following contents of MPFW 1 were reprinted in other publications:

 

Submariner - MC 1

Wasp - Silver Streak 1

"Kar Toon and his Copy Cat" and an activity page, "Fun-o-graphs" - Green Giant 1.

 

I don't think that Funnies Inc. would have sold previously distributed material to its customers, here three different publishers, as its contracts were quitely likely for original material. So the mere fact that this material was sold by Funnies Inc. is evidence that I find very persuasive in supporting that MPFW 1 was never distributed.

 

It was just an internal production item, very akin to an ashcan.

 

 

[Jaydogrules]

1) MPFW #1 was a "published" comic. It didn't appear out of thin air.

 

2) Whether or not it was distributed is irrelevant. Even though it most likely was in some manner, the fact that the full and true stories of its distribution (as well as whatever copies that may have been distributed) are lost to time does not mean that it didn't happen.

 

3) It is not an "ashcan".

 

4) The few lucky owners of an MPFW #1 would probably tar and feather you for attempting to diminish the importance of the book and the fact that it is actually the first appearance and origin of the Submariner.

 

5) No one who is buying Marvel Comics #1 is doing so under the delusion or because it is the "first appearance" of the Submariner (because it is not).

 

6) Marvel Comics #1 reprints most of the Submariner material from MPFW #1.

 

7) Pretending MPFW #1 never happened in order to assign greater significance to Marvel Comics #1 is silly, since that book can stand on its own for what it is (the first "Marvel Comic"). It's the Tec #1 of Marvel Comics, and Cap #1 is its Action #1.

 

-J.

[Silver Surfer]

 

5) No one who is buying Marvel Comics #1 is doing so under the delusion or because it is the "first appearance" of the Submariner (because it is not).

 

-J.

 

I don't think this fact has any bearing either way on a Timely/Marvel fans desire to own a copy. It has never even crossed my mind.

[N e r V]

Matt Nelson did an interesting breakdown on the two books here:

 

http://www.ccspaper.com/feature_article_b.php

[sfcityduck]

1) MPFW #1 was a "published" comic. It didn't appear out of thin air. Response: You are right it was published. But, anytime I print something on my printer it is also "published." What distinguishes an ashcan or other production item from an actual distributed (newsstand or promo) is distribution.

 

2) Whether or not it was distributed is irrelevant. Even though it most likely was in some manner, the fact that the full and true stories (as well as whatever copies that may have been distributed) are lost to time does not mean that it didn't happen. Distribution is what distinguishes a production item, like an ashcan, from a published comic book. So, yes, it matters.

 

3) It is not an "ashcan". We don't know that. Not every ashcan has a corresponding registration. It may have been intended to support a registration. But we just don't know. However, I lean against it being an ashcan because I don't have any knowledge that Funnies Inc. created "ashcans" as a business practice. Not every publisher did.

 

4) The few lucky owners of an MPFW #1 would probably tar and feather you for attempting to diminish the importance of the book and the fact that it is actually the first appearance and origin of the Submariner. Somehow I don't think Zaid is going to care because he loves ashcans. The others all understand what they own, I'm sure. It is very very cool whether an internal publication or an externally distributed one. But, there is no evidence it was externally distributed. The evidence at most supports that it is a production item akin in status to an ashcan. That explains why it sells for so much less than MC 1.

 

5) No one who is buying Marvel Comics #1 is doing so under the delusion or because it is the "first appearance of the Submariner (because it is not). That's also true for Whiz 2. Yet, Whiz 2 sells for more than Flash/Thrill 1. Why? Because internal production items are not viewed in same way as distributed comic books. Accuracy matters, and I think MPFW 1 is an internal production item like an ashcan.

 

6) Marvel Comics #1 reprints most of the Submariner material from MPFW #1. Half the story is reprinted. Which, to me, is strong evidence that MPFW 1 was never distributed. I bet no one at Timely would have agreed to purchase the Submariner story if it had been previously distributed.

 

7) Pretending MPFW #1 never happened in order to assign greater significance to Marvel Comics #1 is silly, since that book can stand on its own for what it is (the first "Marvel Comic). It's the Tec #1 of Marvel Comics, and Cap #1 is its Action #1. Nothing silly about learning about comic history and getting it right. The evidence is that MC 1 is the first appearance of the Submariner in the traditional sense of that word -- meaning an externally distributed publication. But, that shouldn't impact value of MPFW 1 at all. It is a really really cool production item, just like the ashcans.

 

-J.

[N e r V]

 

5) No one who is buying Marvel Comics #1 is doing so under the delusion or because it is the "first appearance" of the Submariner (because it is not).

 

-J.

 

I don't think this fact has any bearing either way on a Timely/Marvel fans desire to own a copy. It has never even crossed my mind.

 

 

Anyone who buys either book is probably already well aware of the two books history.

 

 

One is his first "printed" appearance and the other is his first "newstand" or public appearance.

[N e r V]

Also notable was the Sub-Mariner story was expanded from 8 to 12 pages for Marvel comics #1.

 

Just sayin'...

[Silver Surfer]

If people are worried about buying a copy of MC#1 because they don't think its Subby's first appearance and that is important to them, then they should stick to buying moderns.

[PUNYHUMAN]

This thread is interesting. Maybe Jon Berk can weigh in on this subject. I think he has both books and did a review of both years ago in Comic book Marketplace. I don't have my copy of CBM nearby. Either way , like Pete says Marvel Comics # 1is still a great book. Wish I had one also, a good friend of mine had one back in the 90's. Loved looking at his back in the day. He moved ,I wonder if he still has it.

[N e r V]

If people are worried about buying a copy of MC#1 because they don't think its Subby's first appearance and that is important to them, then they should stick to buying moderns.

 

 

 

They are still trying to figure out why Hulk #181 (Wolverines 2nd appearance) is more expensive than Hulk #180 (Wolverines first appearance)?

 

Or if an ad of a upcoming comic should be considered a characters first appearance.

[PUNYHUMAN]

[sfcityduck]

 

Also notable was the Sub-Mariner story was expanded from 8 to 12 pages for Marvel comics #1.

 

....

 

They are still trying to figure out why Hulk #181 (Wolverines 2nd appearance) is more expensive than Hulk #180 (Wolverines first appearance)?

 

Wait! Are you saying MC 1 is Submariner's "first full appearance"?

[N e r V]

 

Also notable was the Sub-Mariner story was expanded from 8 to 12 pages for Marvel comics #1.

 

....

 

They are still trying to figure out why Hulk #181 (Wolverines 2nd appearance) is more expensive than Hulk #180 (Wolverines first appearance)?

 

Wait! Are you saying MC 1 is Submariner's "first full appearance"?

 

 

No what I'm saying is Overstreet,CGC and everyone else need to find out when every single ad for a comic book first appeared and change all their listings to now note a characters first true appearance.

 

Let chaos ensue....

[VintageComics]

don't many of you view buying a high grade (or any copy) of Marvel 1 today like catching a falling knife? It tumbles lower and lower in Overstreet each year. Of course, Overstreet isn't the be- all and end-all for values anymore, but it represents at worst, the other top books GAINING in value at MCs expense.

 

As we have seen, interests change over time. Seems to me that the Force just aint that strong with MC#1 anymore.

 

The comics market is now the movie market.

 

A few years ago I refused to believe there was a such a thing as a movie bump but hey, here it is.

 

Personally, I don't love it but it is here to stay.

 

The only reason Marvel #1 has fallen behind Cap #1, etc is because of the movie bump. But that can't erase Marvel #1's historical importance.

 

It's the 1st newsstand comic from one of the most successful and powerful publishers in history.

 

And I'll take a copy over an Action #1 any day.

 

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

I see an upswing for MC1 from the many years of being stagnant.

 

So do I.

 

I suspect if a nice mid grade unrestored copy came to an auction this year, people would be surprised at the final hammer.

 

I wouldn't as its been depressed for sometime now. I bet that the Pay copy could easily sell for over $500k today.

 

Sometimes a book can be it's own worst enemy.

 

There was a time a few years ago when DD #1 was a monster book in high grade. Then one year 3 9.6's hit the auction block in the same time period and the price was depressed. That caused a ripple through all grades.

 

Same thing with Marvel #1. That pay copy kept coming back to auction over and over and IMO it killed the Marvel #1 market. I don't think it will ever sell for a 'bargain' again.

 

But people have been quietly asking for a copy for a few years now and I think that new prices would surprise people.

 

[woowoo]

don't many of you view buying a high grade (or any copy) of Marvel 1 today like catching a falling knife? It tumbles lower and lower in Overstreet each year. Of course, Overstreet isn't the be- all and end-all for values anymore, but it represents at worst, the other top books GAINING in value at MCs expense.

 

As we have seen, interests change over time. Seems to me that the Force just aint that strong with MC#1 anymore.

 

The comics market is now the movie market.

 

A few years ago I refused to believe there was a such a thing as a movie bump but hey, here it is.

 

Personally, I don't love it but it is here to stay.

 

The only reason Marvel #1 has fallen behind Cap #1, etc is because of the movie bump. But that can't erase Marvel #1's historical importance.

 

It's the 1st newsstand comic from one of the most successful and powerful publishers in history.

 

And I'll take a copy over an Action #1 any day.