FF #1 Found in Trash-was cgc 2.0 Now on ebay as 4.5?

[uclapeterg]

THATS IT-LOLOLOLOL I can see em now-The hot potato comic-

 

See what you started!?

 

Why didn't you just send the garbage bag to me and I would have kept it and not resold it to anybody!

 

Same here.

[ericc123]

I can't believe I need to say this or that no one has brought it up yet but.....

 

Buy the book not the grade!

 

CGC is not the end all be all and Harley has posted very large scans. Regardless if what Harley has done is ethical or not his opinion is just that along with Bob's, CGC's or yours or mine. If you don't think the book is a 4.5 vote with your wallet and don't buy it.

 

 

 

Eric

[esquirecomics]

What happened to grading is subjective? What if Harley resubbed this book today and it graded 4.5? It's not like we have never seen that before.

 

Looks like someone cleaned the book as well.

 

Why do you think it was cleaned, Tom? It looks exactly like it did the first time.

 

I agree with your point about grading being subjective to a point, but I don't think that water staining like that (along with the multiple creases running parallel to the spine) are allowed in Overstreet standards for VG or VG+. Structurally it looks like a VG/FN or even a FN-, but the staining is a killer and it's all over the book.

 

Looks like a lot of the soiling around the F in Fantastic and around the code stamp was removed. I guess it could be a lower resolution scan on Harleys auction making the dirt "disappear"

 

I see what you're saying now. It looks like he had it dry cleaned. Some of the stresses on the spine are less prominent too. Perhaps a press job.

 

I echo the sentiment that someone should pick up the phone or e-mail Harley before continuing on with their criticism, whether it is legitimate or not (I certainly agree I would never grade this book a 4.5). Let the man have an opportunity to respond.

 

For one thing, do we know whether it is actually Harley who puts up his e-bay auctions? Does he have staff? He certainly has people helping him at conventions. Just because it has his username doesn't necessarily mean he posted the auction or graded the book? Unless of course someone on the boards knows his MO. I do not.

 

Also, FFB, the difference in the scan could definitely be from a modification of the image rather than any "pressing" or other enhancement. Just move the contrast bar on a scan and you can easily see how colors or markings fade or become more prominent.

[esquirecomics]

All this says is that the CGC "army" should be asking that their beloved Overstreet advisors get grading training or ask for CGC standards to be published. And CGC does have published grading standards.

 

I know I, and others, have raised the same question before about disclosure of CGC's grading standards. And no doubt there is a thread on it somewhere but I am too tired to check right now.

 

I recall discussing the topic with Steve B. and receiving a response that had something to do with proprietary rights.

 

Frankly, I am a little unclear as to exactly why CGC has not disclosed their grading standards. If CGC wants to be known as the standard within the industry, then we absolutely need to know its grading criteria. Given that CGC now works with Overstreet on the grading guide (right?), then there has to be some level of overlap or consistency.

 

If the argument by CGC is that it doesn't want competitors to know how it grades because they will copy it, then how are we supposed to know how to evaluate CGC grades in the first place? The whole notion of an independent third party grading service is to ensure some degree of consistency, but in order to understand the level of consistency I have to know how the constant part is achieved!

 

Do we not?

[burntboy]

Harley Rules and it's an unregulated market. If Harley said it's a 4.5 I believe him. I don't see a slab or grader's notes to the contrary.

 

 

pretty much sums up my thoughts. blindly professing allegience to Harley flies in the face of this issue. the book has been grossly overgraded. i appreciate the big scans, but a respected dealer has no business trying to sell that as a 4.5.

 

as i said before, Overstreet deducted 2 full points for one modest water stain - you do the Math.................

[Sal]

i suppose one could argue that if CGC were to disclose their grading standards, they would lose their competitive advantage. to me, this seems to be a bit on the paranoid side, but it's mostly a defensible position. it does, however, prevent them from using the "we're simply the best and most accurate grading company" angle, since there's no way to objectively measure whether they are or not.

 

someone posted something earlier, and i think it bears repeating. CGC's main advantage over someone like Harley Yee is that CGC has no vested interest in the grade of the book. While a dealer would of course sacrifice his reputation if it were demonstrated conclusively that they consistently overgrade, the opportunity for a little "grade nudging" is there for any dealer. this is not the case with CGC, who must maintain a level of accuracy across the entire market in order to continue to stay at the level they currently enjoy.

 

If Harley Yee says its a 4.5, that tells me that a 4.5 is the grade at which Mr. Yee believes he can get the most money while not so vastly overestimating the grade that it would cause negative impact on his rep. And that's good business, don't get me wrong, but in this case, caveat emptor takes heightened importance

[skybolt]

All this says is that the CGC "army" should be asking that their beloved Overstreet advisors get grading training or ask for CGC standards to be published. And CGC does have published grading standards.

 

I know I, and others, have raised the same question before about disclosure of CGC's grading standards. And no doubt there is a thread on it somewhere but I am too tired to check right now.

 

I recall discussing the topic with Steve B. and receiving a response that had something to do with proprietary rights.

 

Frankly, I am a little unclear as to exactly why CGC has not disclosed their grading standards. If CGC wants to be known as the standard within the industry, then we absolutely need to know its grading criteria. Given that CGC now works with Overstreet on the grading guide (right?), then there has to be some level of overlap or consistency.

 

If the argument by CGC is that it doesn't want competitors to know how it grades because they will copy it, then how are we supposed to know how to evaluate CGC grades in the first place? The whole notion of an independent third party grading service is to ensure some degree of consistency, but in order to understand the level of consistency I have to know how the constant part is achieved!

 

Do we not?

 

I just feel like it's a bit more difficult than that. If CGC comes out and says that all books with water stains on them cannot receive a grade higher than 6.0, then what if someone comes out and posts a book with a stain that achieved a 7.0 grade. People would go ballistic. Same thing with tears, fading, stress marks, creases, warping, etc.

 

I have no problem with CGC basing their grading on OS guidelines, but to literally say that a book with 6 minor defects should never grade higher than one with 4 defects is objective at best. Unless someone invents a robotic-like detection machine, that interpolates all defects and does a mathematical equation to determine a grade, we have to have some trust in the grader's opinions.

 

I just feel like people have taken CGC's interpretaion of grades to extremes, where they're willing to shell out 20 or 30 times guide solely based on CGC's reputation. I'm just glad that CGC is around to eliminate some kinks within the system (dealers selling restored or way overgraded books to unsuspecting customers, bringing more people into the market like myself who would have never paid thousands of dollars for any comic book, etc.). If people want to take CGC's services to extremes then I guess this issue becomes a major problem. I highly, highly doubt that when CGC set up shop, they knew that 9.8 graded BA or SA books would sell for many multiples of a 9.4. They probably assumed that a 9.4 would achieve premiums with a 9.6 getting a few percentages more, etc.. Kind of like buying a Honda with one small scratch vs. a brand new one. Would we pay 30 times the selling price for the latter?! We've created this problem, and now CGC is stuck since they know the difference between 2 grades is miniscule at best, and if they come out with a non-existent set standard, everyone would complain demand their money back.

 

That being said, I'd still like to see CGC give a loose interpretation of how they go about grading books. Maybe say that if a book has a certain amount or type of defects, then we know it's within the 6.0 and 7.0 range. Then we look at the book a little closer to see how the QP is and give an average grade (kind of like how we grade our own books). At least that's what I assume they do.

[143ksk]

Actually, I think that to a great degree we all do know CGC's grading criteria.

 

I totally understand that people would like a published listing of how CGC grades books, deductions for certain defects, etc, etc. I would like to see that, too. However, we have all the evidence we need to determine with a great degree of certainty what CGC's standards are.

 

There are clearly rules present. Since we have not been given them, it is up to us to determine them. This is what scientists do every day--they inspect phenomena and create theories as to what the rules are that engendered those phenomena. CGC has slabbed hundreds of thousands of comic books and many individuals have had the opportunity to examine hundreds if not thousands of those books. This is a sufficiently large set that the underlying rules should be relatively easy to determine.

 

As evidence that those rules are determinable, many people can predict CGC grades. See the various grading contests for this.

 

If anyone wanted to make a serious study of this, I think a very accurate CGC grading guide could be generated.

 

Of course, it would be much easier if CGC would just publish their standards...

[Dr_Neff]

Harley Rules and it's an unregulated market. If Harley said it's a 4.5 I believe him. I don't see a slab or grader's notes to the contrary.

 

 

 

pretty much sums up my thoughts. blindly professing allegience to Harley flies in the face of this issue.

 

 

"Blindly" would not be accurate, as I have dealt consistently with Harley Yee for over twenty years - he has always been the consumnate professional. Make sure you have read the 2nd Edition of the Grading Guide and look up the grades 2.0 to 5.0 and get back to us with your findings...

 

 

[asmfan]

just read this entire thread...

 

it's my opinion that either 1) this Harley guy (who I've never bought from before) is a terrible grader or 2) Harley knows what he is doing and is basically just being dishonest and ripping people off. In either case, I have concluded that I never plan on buying from this guy.

 

I also happen to have a CGCd FF#1, 5.0. If harley's book is VG+, my copy is a NM. the only books I collect are mid-grade Silver and my VG range copies kick the cr*p out of this book. as others have said, Harley's book is a real POS. I would put it in the 2.0 to 2.5 range, but if it was mine I'd call it a GD. seriously, the standards would have to be re-written for his book to be VG+. all of those huge stains...

 

also can't help the shameless plug here, but my copy of FF#1 is currently for sale to the highest bidder, check the marketplace section...

[asmfan]

furthermore, the dealers that are sticking up for Harley here lose some credibility in my book. sticking up for your own is fine, but grading is at the core of today's hobby and I have a serious problem with any dealer who would defend this grade on this book...

[esquirecomics]

furthermore, the dealers that are sticking up for Harley here lose some credibility in my book. sticking up for your own is fine, but grading is at the core of today's hobby and I have a serious problem with any dealer who would defend this grade on this book...

 

Just to be clear that I am not being placed in this category, as I think Bob Storms and I might have been the only dealers who said anything. Not saying you were including me, but just to have the record straight.

 

1. As I said in my post before, I do not agree with Harley's grade for many of the reasons stated numerously times above.

 

2. I have only met Harley once, and have had no dealings other than perhaps one or two minor e-mails.

 

3. I have no reason to stick up for a dealer just based on the fact that they are a dealer. I will defend or criticize someone's position based on the position, not the person.

 

4. I am troubled, however, that I still see no stated effort by anyone to contact Harley and get his side of the story. And no one has answered my earlier questions about who even graded the book and placed it on e-bay. We only know it is Harley's comic business, but we don't know it is Harley. For all we know, it was an assistant and Harley doesn't know anything about it. I don't view this as a defense of Harley, but instead trying to give someone the benefit of the doubt and opportunity to respond before we crucify him. Everyone is entitled to that.

[asmfan]

Mark,

 

I still don't think of you as a dealer... more as a "pre-eminent collector", but I guess you are in the dealer category too now that you have your site up. I have browsed it BTW... and no, I was not referring to any of your comments in my post.

 

in fact I wasn't trying to single anyone out, and I won't, but it seemed as I read through the various posts that there were some that were trying to rationalize Harley's grading of the book, which once again is ludicrous in my opinion.

 

I agree someone should get the facts here. it seems unlikely that a dealer would not monitor a listing of a major silver key like this, even a low-grade copy, but it's certainly possible. and I am willing to give Harley the benefit of the doubt until the facts are out, even if my previous post doesn't suggest it. my blood just boils when it comes down to over-grading by dealers. so much money wasted (though subsequently refunded) over the years, and SO much time wasted and so many hassles....

[Aman619]

I think its fair to point out that LUCKY says he sold to a third party before Harley got ahold of the book, Unless that buyer was Harley under a pseudonym, mighnt we assume that that buyer cracked it out and sold it raw to Harley (or another middleman) sale? And that Harley bought it thinking it a VG or VG-? Looking at that book in its condition, I would be hard put to pick a grade. CGC said 2.0. So its a 2.0, but prior to their opinion, who knows what "the grade" is?

 

course, if Harley was ever aware of CGCs grade then he is hoisted on his own petard, or some other expression... and should be banished to the Danny Zone.

[esquirecomics]

Mark,

 

I still don't think of you as a dealer... more as a "pre-eminent collector", but I guess you are in the dealer category too now that you have your site up. I have browsed it BTW... and no, I was not referring to any of your comments in my post.

 

Dealer/pre-eminent collector works for me!

[luckystiff-migration]

Well-I said I sold to an anonomous seller thru comiclink-could have been anyone.

It hasn't been very long though-as the sale was in Nov. I thought this would be of interest to you guys-glad I mentioned it for your debate. now...i have some more trash to look for comics in-!

[sfilosa]

think its fair to point out that LUCKY says he sold to a third party before Harley got ahold of the book, Unless that buyer was Harley under a pseudonym, mighnt we assume that that buyer cracked it out and sold it raw to Harley (or another middleman) sale?

 

As he said, and I remembered, he sold it thru ComicLink. It's quite possible that Harley bought the book. And even if he didn't, I'm sure he didn't buy it cracked out of the slab as a VG+ (say at some convention).

 

I'm not saying he did know CGC's grade, and as I said, he does show large scans, but I'm pretty sure that most of his VG+ books, don't look anything like that.

[skybolt]

Well-I said I sold to an anonomous seller thru comiclink-could have been anyone.

It hasn't been very long though-as the sale was in Nov. I thought this would be of interest to you guys-glad I mentioned it for your debate. now...i have some more trash to look for comics in-!

 

It's a messy job, but someone has to do it.

 

Look at it this way, you're preserving vintage comic books that would've been destroyed otherwise.

[skybolt]

think its fair to point out that LUCKY says he sold to a third party before Harley got ahold of the book, Unless that buyer was Harley under a pseudonym, mighnt we assume that that buyer cracked it out and sold it raw to Harley (or another middleman) sale?

 

As he said, and I remembered, he sold it thru ComicLink. It's quite possible that Harley bought the book. And even if he didn't, I'm sure he didn't buy it cracked out of the slab as a VG+ (say at some convention).

 

I'm not saying he did know CGC's grade, and as I said, he does show large scans, but I'm pretty sure that most of his VG+ books, don't look anything like that.

 

I agree with this statement. I purchased a couple of low grade Junior Comics from him a few months ago, and the grading was spot on (G+ to VG-). They did have some wear, but the covers were very nice.

[FFB]

4. I am troubled, however, that I still see no stated effort by anyone to contact Harley and get his side of the story. And no one has answered my earlier questions about who even graded the book and placed it on e-bay. We only know it is Harley's comic business, but we don't know it is Harley. For all we know, it was an assistant and Harley doesn't know anything about it. I don't view this as a defense of Harley, but instead trying to give someone the benefit of the doubt and opportunity to respond before we crucify him. Everyone is entitled to that.

 

If you want to hear Harley's side of the story, why don't you call him?