FF #1 Found in Trash-was cgc 2.0 Now on ebay as 4.5?

[DiceX]

 

 

But where is the cake?

 

Ze-

 

If it's like the show I went to, Harley ate it.

I saw him numerous times during the three days, and I can't recall seeing him once without a Twinkie or a Ho-Ho in his mouth.

[Red Hook]

Do not mess with Mr. Yee!

[october]

not sure I agree that restoration is purely objective. I had an early X-Men issue (can't remember now b/c I sold it) that was a very nice book except for one place where someone had swiped a black marker on a portion of the cover that was also black. The colors did not match, I was always aware of the mark, and it was clearly visible and wasn't trying to cover anything up. The book came back from CGC as a PLOD, citing that mark as restoration. I was pretty PO'd but didn't go through the trouble of re-submitting b/c it was a relatively low dollar book. but it was writing on the cover, not restoration, right?

 

Well, the existence of the mark is objective. I would agree that in a few cases, the "restoration" designation would be subjective. Sometimes I don't understand how CGC differentiates a stray pen mark from restoration (if that mark happens to cover a color break). It does seem unfair that the placement of the mark determines if it come back a blue label or a PLOD. However, that is the exception rather than the rule. My point was just that grading is ALWAYS a subjective endeavor and anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. Look at the grading forum. People with decades in the hobby can't agree on a definitive grade. Why is CGC any different? Do they have a magic grading 8-ball or something?

[DiceX]

Do not mess with Mr. Yee!

 

I didn't mess. I just told what I saw.

Yee with a Twinkie.

I meant no harm.

[Red Hook]

Do not mess with Mr. Yee!

 

I didn't mess. I just told what I saw.

Yee with a Twinkie.

I meant no harm.

 

 

Okay.....you get a pass...... this time!

[greggy]

Do not mess with Mr. Yee!

 

I didn't mess. I just told what I saw.

Yee with a Twinkie.

I meant no harm.

 

 

Okay.....you get a pass...... this time!

[jkrk]

 

My point was just that grading is ALWAYS a subjective endeavor and anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. Look at the grading forum. People with decades in the hobby can't agree on a definitive grade. Why is CGC any different? Do they have a magic grading 8-ball or something?

 

Ok. I guess I'll have to be a bit serious in this thread. Grading is somewhat subjective so unless there are one set of grading guidelines I can envision a range of opinions regarding the FF1. Most of us wouldn't even consider buying a book with water stains in grades above vg-. Harley supplied reasonable scans so the potential buyers saw what they were receiving. I would expect Harley to offer a return, if after the book was received, the buyer had a complaint about stiffness, etc.

My view regarding graded books is that CGC does not offer the universal standard acceted by everyone. However, most graded buyers rely on a CGC's 3rd party grade. Therefore, I consider the comic market as two markets. One being the wild West raw market where anything goes. The buyer should know how to grade to his or hers satisfaction or he/she is at the mercy of the wolves. If the seller and the buyer comes to terms then a satisfactory transaction can be completed. If Harley is dealing in this market then Harley's grade is right and it's up to the buyers to walk if they disagree. If Harley finds a newbie who doesn't understand the arena they are playing in then the new buyer will pay the price for their introduction.

 

Graded buyers are paying for the "impartial" third party advice. Are the graded books the "truly correct grade"? Sometimes I wonder. However, I have found the grading overall reasonably good so I try to stay in this area. Have I ever been unhappy with sellers small pictures on CGC books and relied on the CGC grade? Yes and at times were dissappointed. I have also bought books that I thought were undergraded. Being a collector who sells books fairly often I understand that no vendor can maintain they have found the "holy grail for grading". However, CGC books receive a very high percentage of prices paid relative to guide.

 

Therefore, the Harley FF 1 disussion from my point of view comes down to a philosophical discussion of a delaers grading versus the buyers faith in impartial grading.

[shrunkenhead]

 

Ok, my wife officially thinks I'm insane because I'm laughing my off so hard!

[shrunkenhead]

 

 

Therefore, the Harley FF 1 disussion from my point of view comes down to a philosophical discussion of a delaers grading versus the buyers faith in impartial grading.

 

No disprespect meant, but I couldn't disagree more. Ripping off an unsuspecting buyer who takes an Overstreet Advisor's supposed good credentials on faith is not "philosophical," it's unethical. I can't see the sense in being euphemistic about this.

 

No, I'm not saying that CGC is infallible. But the book in question simply is NOT a VG+. It doesn't take a wizard to figure that one out. Grading is not that mysterious a process. Harley's selling this book unslabbed as a VG+ is not a philosophical choice. This is not an abstract argument about disagreeing with the CGC hammer. This is simply shady business tactics, and the reason this book is now a magically altered "VG+" has everything to do with dollars and nothing to do with personal business philosophy.

 

The bottom line here is that Harley just got caught with his pants down. If he wanted to do a dirty-laundry deal, he should've taken this book to a show (lord knows he goes to enough of them). Those of you who are pshawing this red-handed exploit as being simply philosophical can go ahead and line up at Harley's booth with your hard-earned money, but something tells me you won't.

[october]

I hope people reading my posts don't think I am defending Harley. A blind man could tell that book isn't a VG+. My statements were meant to be general in nature. I just wanted to make it clear that I think people should have a problem with the auction because the book is clearly over-graded, not because he cracked the slab and disagreed with the grade. Personally I think selling that book as a VG+ is pretty stupid, not to mention shortsighted. However, caveat emptor as always and anyone dropping a $1,000+ on a comic book should have enough grading skills to laugh at that auction.

[shrunkenhead]

My statements were meant to be general in nature. I just wanted to make it clear that I think people should have a problem with the auction because the book is clearly over-graded, not because he cracked the slab and disagreed with the grade.

 

Absolutely, point taken. Although the crack-out game (to my mind) does seem to be unscrupulous. Why not say "CGC graded this book lower but I disagree. I am a longtime Overstreet advisor and my opinion is just as good as theirs." A lot of folks might agree with that statement.

 

Whatever happens now, I think this sale will end up costing Harley a lot more in the longrun than the few hundred extra bucks he picked up in this sale. Those of us who spend considerable amounts of cash are now hip to the auction, and are going to proceed to buy our books accordingly. I almost pity the guy, as I think this sale is going to haunt him for at least a little while.

[october]

My statements were meant to be general in nature. I just wanted to make it clear that I think people should have a problem with the auction because the book is clearly over-graded, not because he cracked the slab and disagreed with the grade.

 

Whatever happens now, I think this sale will end up costing Harley a lot more in the longrun than the few hundred extra bucks he picked up in this sale. Those of us who spend considerable amounts of cash are now hip to the auction, and are going to proceed to buy our books accordingly. I almost pity the guy, as I think this sale is going to haunt him for at least a little while.

 

Yep, no doubt. In this age of easily shared information, it is, thankfully, getting harder to pull a fast one on the unsuspecting buying public (at least the ones that are plugged in). I am not sure if he figured he would be able to slip this auction under the radar, but you are absolutely right in saying that this will most likely end up costing him far more than the couple hundred he managed to clear on the sale.

[Ze-man]

As I skim read this entire thread. The same question kept coming to mind.

Harley is no dimwitted rube. He knows the comics game, he has been around as long as anyone else....if not longer

 

Even if the worst case scenario plays out to be true..( he bought, cracked , cleaned, pressed the book.. to resell it raw on Ebay)

Why would Harley do something so transparent as this?

I imagine he is aware of the CGC forum hounds.. and how we dissect auctions we think might not be on the up and up.

 

So as I said.. I keep wondering why would he do something like this? It just does not add up.

 

Those here who know Harley, or have dealt with him before.. is this in character? Is this true to form for him?

Is he just not that smart sometimes? Just not good at the scam game yet?

 

It was not as if he was caught under a new ebay I.D. trying to pull a fast one with small scans. This was right in plain sight, on Ebay.. with Huge scans.

The crime does not add up to what was to be potentially gained.

 

Almost all F.F. #1 auctions trigger a blip on many collectors radar screen.. and those that had genuine interest in buying the book.. were most likely savvy, well versed, and well heeled collecters who ask MANY questions before buying. And quite a few even know the history of many of the F.F. #1's floating around for sale.

 

So yet again..WTF actually happened here?

Harley tried to overgrade a book in the hopes some insufficiently_thoughtful_person who knows enough to be swayed by the fact that he is an OS advisor.. yet still does not know enough to NOT grade a book with very heavy waterstains as a 4.5 for themselves in the hopes they might grossly overpay for the book?

 

I dont buy it.

Call him a habitual overgrader..dont buy from him, think less of him for not being a 100% super honest nice seller.. THAT much I can understand. The one thing I have learned from this place is not to assume anything. At the least it would be presumptuous of us to assume we can pass final judgement before knowing for certain what exactly went down.

Has anyone actually spoken with Mr. Yee about his perspective about all of this?

(For the record I called asking about the book, as a potential buyer with 2 days left to go in the auction..I still have not heard back from the Yee Man.)

 

If I misread major plot points in the thread, sorry..

 

Ze-

[Aman619]

not hearing back from Yee speaks loudly to me of only one thing: he is aware of our discussions about the book. I'm convinced that Harley just got caught doing what dealers have always done... buy a 2.0 (good) and resell ot a few grades higher. And without Lucky having come on here when he found the FF1, and now months later when he discovered Harley was reselling it, we might never know.

 

But - -- sadly for Harley - -- Lucky did, and we do.

 

CGC says they are protecting us in the marketplace... and they are. But, "we" are doing a pretty good job ourselves with our new internet tools.

[Ze-man]

While I agree.. this ol internet thingy sure is a fun way to track a paper trail on a book.

I still do not see a big ultimate sin commited here. The book ended up selling for $300 more then the slabbed 2.0 did.

The market bore out what it was worth.. NOT what Harley claimed the book to be.

It sold right around what the slabbed 2.0 did.

People bid on the book in front of them, and many of the people that bid were not exactly small time newbies to Ebay.

 

I imagine everyone here has seen, or owns a few CGC books that they would swear should have been graded higher. Perhaps due to personal difference in grading styles.. or just that on a given day CGC was off, and blew it. Many play the resub game... crack them out and resub them to try and get a higher grade, just by resubbing it.

Or crack it out, and sell it RAW.

 

As you say.. sellers have always bought low and sold high, that is not new.

So Harley might consider water stains on an otherwise solid book to not be as much of a downgrade as CGC might...

So he listed a book for what he thought it to be in hopes that a bidder might agree with his stance on waterstains as a defect.

Is it really that big a deal?.. to overgrade a book , put up large scans on Ebay with a small description?

Does this all just come down to feeling betrayed by a seller who many previously thought to be a guy in a white cowboy hat, instead of a dastardly black one?

Or is it because he did not agree with CGC?.. and went way overboard in his grade assesment?

Wasn't it Marnin who listed a few certain highest in census books on his own site.. even though the grade on the sealed CGC label begged to differ?

 

I know this thread is already old news..I just did not understand what the general consensus was after all was said and done.

Do we now hate Harley?... Are we just peeved at him?...Are we supposed to wag our finger and give him a ... next time we see him? I am pretty sure not many dealers are so pure they could cast stones at Harley for doing this type of thing.(He just happened to get caught)

It seems we have to become that much more savvy about which dealer trying to make money, gets our money.

Or we could just stop collecting.

 

I for one assume everyone is out to get my money..(not just in comics).. And as Jim Rome is so fond of saying....."If youre not cheating , your not trying"

 

Now now.. I am not trying to say everyone is a crook. Just a few of you....

 

Ze-

[drbanner]

not hearing back from Yee speaks loudly to me of only one thing: he is aware of our discussions about the book. I'm convinced that Harley just got caught doing what dealers have always done... buy a 2.0 (good) and resell ot a few grades higher. And without Lucky having come on here when he found the FF1, and now months later when he discovered Harley was reselling it, we might never know.

 

But - -- sadly for Harley - -- Lucky did, and we do.

 

CGC says they are protecting us in the marketplace... and they are. But, "we" are doing a pretty good job ourselves with our new internet tools.

 

"hear back"?? I didn't notice anyone tried to contact him about this book, did you?

 

I peruse Harley's inventory once a year at Heroes Con and receive his snail-mail catalogs and post-cards. He has a great selection of gold, silver, and bronze age books and since I collect all those eras I'm usually able to find several books from him to add to my collection.

 

And unlike most dealers, he typically has every book in his inventory graded so you can see the grade he assigns the book...and I can tell you his grading (and restoration detection acumen) is all over the board. And this is why I'll most likely never buy a book from him sight unseen. Bottom line - he had this book in hand and put a grade on it accordingly. Apparently, he doesn't downgrade much for water stains but I seriously doubt there's any attempt to deceive anyone...sorry guys, no hidden conspiracy here, just an overgraded book.

[luckystiff-migration]

Right after I started this thread-I sent an e-mail to Harley and asked if he knew the book was rated a 2.0 in october 04-I also mentioned I asked youse guys on this board what they thought, as this board advised me what to do with the book when i found it. (Thanks again folks!)

So Harvey has known about this from the get go-I don't know him but it seems trying to defend himself in a pretty indefenseable situation wasn't worth the effort and may have made him look worse.

I think with anything in life-Just because "everyone does it" is a P*ss poor excuse for doing the wrong thing. ESPECIALLY when you tout your credentials with Overstreet to back you up. My impression of Overstreet and CGC is an effort to make consistant information available in a hobby that otherwise is way way too subjective. When great sums of money pass hands this consistency is imperative.

Thats why I slabbed the book-I didn't want to guess any grades.

Nothing changes the impression that Harley was taking advantage of the FF hype thats so prevolent right now. Just because others do it too dosn't make it right.

[burntboy]

Right after I started this thread-I sent an e-mail to Harley and asked if he knew the book was rated a 2.0 in october 04-I also mentioned I asked youse guys on this board what they thought, as this board advised me what to do with the book when i found it. (Thanks again folks!)

So Harvey has known about this from the get go-I don't know him but it seems trying to defend himself in a pretty indefenseable situation wasn't worth the effort and may have made him look worse.

I think with anything in life-Just because "everyone does it" is a P*ss poor excuse for doing the wrong thing. ESPECIALLY when you tout your credentials with Overstreet to back you up. My impression of Overstreet and CGC is an effort to make consistant information available in a hobby that otherwise is way way too subjective. When great sums of money pass hands this consistency is imperative.

Thats why I slabbed the book-I didn't want to guess any grades.

Nothing changes the impression that Harley was taking advantage of the FF hype thats so prevolent right now. Just because others do it too dosn't make it right.

 

hey Lucky, you can't use "Youse Guys" unless you're from Jersey!!!!!!

 

ultimately, i guess it's anyone's right to crack a book out and call it what they think it is, as opposed to CGC's.

 

the price that will typically go along with that action is the lesser value attained by trying to sell a book raw vs slabbed. (when graded approx the same).

 

i do not believe that CGC is the absolute authority on grading, but find them generally close enough and consistent enough to be reliable. keep in mind that they have 3 graders looking at the book, as well as a resto expert and a page counter, etc.

 

i think of it as akin to having Scott (FFB) Steve (Sfilosa) and Bob (Namisgr) arrive at a concensus opinion of the grade of my book. would/could i disagree?? sure, but not likely for long, as i'd realize that their combined opinions and expertise far outweigh mine.

 

so, IMHO, cracking open the slab and listing the book 5 grades higher than the expert opinions, is merely an attempt at trying to squeeze more bucks outta the sale. NOT a capitol offense, but NOT what i'd hope from a reputable dealer.......

[shadroch]

Anyone can remove a comic from a slab and call it anything they wish. But a seller must be either stupid or full of hubris to attempt to call a book something it obviously isn't. I won't attempt to put a motive to his actions,but I hope he feels the extra $300 or so that he made was worth the hit he took.

[OldGuy]

I feel that Harley is entitled to his opinion whether or not he bought it slabbed. If he did know it was previously in a 2.0 holder, he is under no obligation to disclose CGC's previous assessment, although I grant that is a pretty big difference of opinion!

 

Sure, just like Comic Keys can not send a book to CGC because he knows it'll come back restored and this way he can say it isn't restored. Same logic and a good reason not to buy from either one.