FF #1 Found in Trash-was cgc 2.0 Now on ebay as 4.5?

[esquirecomics]

4. I am troubled, however, that I still see no stated effort by anyone to contact Harley and get his side of the story. And no one has answered my earlier questions about who even graded the book and placed it on e-bay. We only know it is Harley's comic business, but we don't know it is Harley. For all we know, it was an assistant and Harley doesn't know anything about it. I don't view this as a defense of Harley, but instead trying to give someone the benefit of the doubt and opportunity to respond before we crucify him. Everyone is entitled to that.

 

If you want to hear Harley's side of the story, why don't you call him?

 

You assume I care.

 

[divad]

4. I am troubled, however, that I still see no stated effort by anyone to contact Harley and get his side of the story. And no one has answered my earlier questions about who even graded the book and placed it on e-bay. We only know it is Harley's comic business, but we don't know it is Harley. For all we know, it was an assistant and Harley doesn't know anything about it. I don't view this as a defense of Harley, but instead trying to give someone the benefit of the doubt and opportunity to respond before we crucify him. Everyone is entitled to that.

 

If you want to hear Harley's side of the story, why don't you call him?

 

 

Regardless of what you do or don't . . . it's not a 4.5

[FFB]

4. I am troubled, however, that I still see no stated effort by anyone to contact Harley and get his side of the story. And no one has answered my earlier questions about who even graded the book and placed it on e-bay. We only know it is Harley's comic business, but we don't know it is Harley. For all we know, it was an assistant and Harley doesn't know anything about it. I don't view this as a defense of Harley, but instead trying to give someone the benefit of the doubt and opportunity to respond before we crucify him. Everyone is entitled to that.

 

If you want to hear Harley's side of the story, why don't you call him?

 

You assume I care.

 

 

True. Your long post led me to believe you did.

[garthgantu]

........someone might buy this book and pay 2.5 - 4.0 grade money based on the sellers reputation. There would seem to be little reason to break this book out other than to inflate the grade and try to better the original selling price.............

 

WHAT reputation? A reputation for making up his own loony grading system years ago and sticking with it? A rep for overgrading just about everything once he owns it, but not while buying? What a loser.

[garthgantu]

Post deleted by garthgantu... I think it's the first time I've ever done this..!

[garthgantu]

Looks like a lot of the soiling around the F in Fantastic and around the code stamp was removed. I guess it could be a lower resolution scan on Harleys auction making the dirt "disappear"

 

Lower res scan, or a little photoshopping to lighten the overall color and thus 'remove' a few of the deeper creases and 'reduce' the soiling?

[davidking623]

3.0

 

Davidking623

[esquirecomics]

4. I am troubled, however, that I still see no stated effort by anyone to contact Harley and get his side of the story. And no one has answered my earlier questions about who even graded the book and placed it on e-bay. We only know it is Harley's comic business, but we don't know it is Harley. For all we know, it was an assistant and Harley doesn't know anything about it. I don't view this as a defense of Harley, but instead trying to give someone the benefit of the doubt and opportunity to respond before we crucify him. Everyone is entitled to that.

 

If you want to hear Harley's side of the story, why don't you call him?

 

You assume I care.

 

 

True. Your long post led me to believe you did.

 

Must be my carefully worded lawyerly language confusing you again!

 

I merely seek to ensure fairness and balance in this world, and peace to all.

[esquirecomics]

I just feel like it's a bit more difficult than that. If CGC comes out and says that all books with water stains on them cannot receive a grade higher than 6.0, then what if someone comes out and posts a book with a stain that achieved a 7.0 grade. People would go ballistic. Same thing with tears, fading, stress marks, creases, warping, etc.

 

I have no problem with CGC basing their grading on OS guidelines, but to literally say that a book with 6 minor defects should never grade higher than one with 4 defects is objective at best. Unless someone invents a robotic-like detection machine, that interpolates all defects and does a mathematical equation to determine a grade, we have to have some trust in the grader's opinions.

 

I just feel like people have taken CGC's interpretaion of grades to extremes, where they're willing to shell out 20 or 30 times guide solely based on CGC's reputation. I'm just glad that CGC is around to eliminate some kinks within the system (dealers selling restored or way overgraded books to unsuspecting customers, bringing more people into the market like myself who would have never paid thousands of dollars for any comic book, etc.). If people want to take CGC's services to extremes then I guess this issue becomes a major problem. I highly, highly doubt that when CGC set up shop, they knew that 9.8 graded BA or SA books would sell for many multiples of a 9.4. They probably assumed that a 9.4 would achieve premiums with a 9.6 getting a few percentages more, etc.. Kind of like buying a Honda with one small scratch vs. a brand new one. Would we pay 30 times the selling price for the latter?! We've created this problem, and now CGC is stuck since they know the difference between 2 grades is miniscule at best, and if they come out with a non-existent set standard, everyone would complain demand their money back.

 

That being said, I'd still like to see CGC give a loose interpretation of how they go about grading books. Maybe say that if a book has a certain amount or type of defects, then we know it's within the 6.0 and 7.0 range. Then we look at the book a little closer to see how the QP is and give an average grade (kind of like how we grade our own books). At least that's what I assume they do.

 

I don't think it is necessary, nor even possible, to fully articulate specific grading standards that would fit every book or every circumstance. Not every water stain is the same. Not every crease is the same. However, as you suggest, there certainly can be statements regarding general guding principles that would allow us to understand (and assess) CGC's grading standards. All they would need do is include a caveat that people should understand that an apparent literal application of the stated standards would not necessarily result in the grade scale they provided. Variances, depending upon a personal review of the book, could lead to a different grade.

 

I am just writing this off the cuff so no doubt I could expand upon this or elaborate further, but is at least some initial thoughts.

[jbud73]

Never thought I'd read a disclaimer concerning Comics how the hobby has changed. maybe I should summarize in layman terms. "Enter the comic hobby at your own risk, prepare to get at the drive thru"

[jkrk]

I have read through the thread and now will attempt to add greater confusion for most but the realities for me.

 

1)If Harley says it;s a VG+ then the book is a Harley VG+ with notes. I saw no purple label so I assume the book is unrestored except maybe Harley has a different system for disclosing restorations. Possibly no holder indicates that the book is restored or possibly is restored but you must call for a more detailed description.

2)Harley did indicate that there are some water stains. Possibly the stains are the reason that the book is not graded NM+?

3)The book has light tan pages. Without a holder it will be relatively easy to check out the page color. My problem with the auction is that Harley does not indicate the stiffness quality of the cover. We all know what water does to covers. Does the book rate a 7.0 cover stiffness grade or possibly higher?

4)Does the auction answer the question as to why dealers don't CGC many of their comics? If Jackson pollack designed the back cover imagine what the book would sell for?

[burntboy]

4. I am troubled, however, that I still see no stated effort by anyone to contact Harley and get his side of the story. And no one has answered my earlier questions about who even graded the book and placed it on e-bay. We only know it is Harley's comic business, but we don't know it is Harley. For all we know, it was an assistant and Harley doesn't know anything about it. I don't view this as a defense of Harley, but instead trying to give someone the benefit of the doubt and opportunity to respond before we crucify him. Everyone is entitled to that.

 

If you want to hear Harley's side of the story, why don't you call him?

 

 

Regardless of what you do or don't . . . it's not a 4.5

 

and to me the real crux of the matter is that regardless of what underling may have done this, this CGC graded 2.0 GOOD book was broken out of it's slab and is now being sold as a 4.5 by Harley.

 

can someone please comment on Dr Neff's remark dealing with the NEW OS grading guide and the 2.0 - 5.0 section? i'm assuming that the good doctor feels that there is sufficiant latitude to grade a book in this condition with those multiple and ugly waterstains somewhere between those grades??? i wouldn't have balked at the book being overgraded as a 3.0 since there were big scans to draw ones own conclusions and the refund policy is probably very good.

 

my concern is trying to call this book a 4.5. i may be out of my mind, but i just don't see how that is remotely possible (you can "call" it whatever you want but IMO there is sufficient "guidance" provided by OS to recognize this book for the 2.0-3.0 that it should be.............)

 

go back and take a look at my 6.0 FINE copy in the grading section 2 weeks ago and then look at this book again, and tell me that the two books are only separated by 1.5 grading points

 

does anyone have some decent examples of books that they have had graded that had at least one big ugly water stain?!?!?!?

[Larryw7]

Well, there's this one.

 

 

[Aces]

That's Golden Age.

 

You could rip it in half and still get a 1.8.

[burntboy]

Well, there's this one.

 

 

 

good example Doiby - how many water stains like the one URC are on this book?? does that stain appear on the BC as well??i

 

with the GA curve, one might say that CGC would grade this as a 2.5 - 3.0 SA book.

[Larryw7]

Here's the back cover. I don't think the stains went through the book, but I haven't looked at in awhile.

 

 

[shadroch]

If Harley unslabbed this book,shame on him.

If Harley bought this book unslabbed as a VG+,shame on him.

If Harley allows some underling to grade and list auctions of key books without a semblence of oversight,shame on him.

If a dealer can grade a book whatever he likes dispite what CGC grades it,who is to say they will agree with CGC when they get a PLOD?

[october]

If a dealer can grade a book whatever he likes dispite what CGC grades it,who is to say they will agree with CGC when they get a PLOD?

 

I don't really think that is a fair comparison. Restoration is an objective fact. Grading, on the other hand, is highly subjective. I don't think there is anything wrong with disagreeing with an assigned grade, especially since CGC isn’t internally consistent. Claiming there is no restoration would, in most cases, be an affirmative misrepresentation.

[asmfan]

not sure I agree that restoration is purely objective. I had an early X-Men issue (can't remember now b/c I sold it) that was a very nice book except for one place where someone had swiped a black marker on a portion of the cover that was also black. The colors did not match, I was always aware of the mark, and it was clearly visible and wasn't trying to cover anything up. The book came back from CGC as a PLOD, citing that mark as restoration. I was pretty PO'd but didn't go through the trouble of re-submitting b/c it was a relatively low dollar book. but it was writing on the cover, not restoration, right?

[nearmint]

If a dealer can grade a book whatever he likes dispite what CGC grades it,who is to say they will agree with CGC when they get a PLOD?

 

I don't really think that is a fair comparison. Restoration is an objective fact. Grading, on the other hand, is highly subjective. I don't think there is anything wrong with disagreeing with an assigned grade, especially since CGC isn’t internally consistent. Claiming there is no restoration would, in most cases, be an affirmative misrepresentation.

 

Sure, a dealer has every right to disagree with an assigned grade, crack it out of its slab, and raise the grade two-and-a-half points. But, I would hope the same dealer wouldn't refuse a return of a slabbed book because it was graded by an impartial 3rd party grading service.

 

Why should a buyer be forced to accept CGC's grade if the seller's not willing to do the same?