Why did Kirby's mid-70's and on work just not look as good?

[Knightsofold]

New Gods/4th world Kirby was by far his best work.

 

I used to hate Kirby's art but from drawing many comics growing up, and then learning art theory/composition in art school I realized just how good Kirby was.

 

Like many people I was turned off by his rendering he didn't make "nice or realistic" looking humans like Neil Adams, Jim Lee, Perez, etc. Turns out a nice crosshatched human is the easy part. Composition, page flow/design, unique shapes/ideas, and dynamic action is the hardest and what Kirby mastered.

 

I remember Jim Lee showing me an awesome Kirby Thor page he picked up at SDCC in the late 80s with some of that x-men $ and I was thinking "wtf is this " haha.

 

I wish someone told me to think of Kirby's stuff as if it's a different format, like a crazy cartoon that can't have cross hatching etc I might've accepted it easier.

 

My .

[Chillax23]

New Gods/4th world Kirby was by far his best work.

 

I used to hate Kirby's art but from drawing many comics growing up, and then learning art theory/composition in art school I realized just how good Kirby was.

 

Like many people I was turned off by his rendering he didn't make "nice or realistic" looking humans like Neil Adams, Jim Lee, Perez, etc. Turns out a nice crosshatched human is the easy part. Composition, page flow/design, unique shapes/ideas, and dynamic action is the hardest and what Kirby mastered.

 

I remember Jim Lee showing me an awesome Kirby Thor page he picked up at SDCC in the late 80s with some of that x-men $ and I was thinking "wtf is this " haha.

 

I wish someone told me to think of Kirby's stuff as if it's a different format, like a crazy cartoon that can't have cross hatching etc I might've accepted it easier.

 

My .

 

So pardon my ignorance - but I see the phrase "Kirby's New Gods/4th world stuff" thrown around a lot - and I am trying to figure out the series that this encompasses - obviously New Gods and Forever People - but is there anything else? I am thinking of starting up a collection of New Gods and Forever People (as I like and am intrigued by the characters created there) - but wondering if I am missing any other great potential series that qualify in this "New Gods/4th World Stuff"

 

 

[Black_Adam]

 

So pardon my ignorance - but I see the phrase "Kirby's New Gods/4th world stuff" thrown around a lot - and I am trying to figure out the series that this encompasses - obviously New Gods and Forever People - but is there anything else? I am thinking of starting up a collection of New Gods and Forever People (as I like and am intrigued by the characters created there) - but wondering if I am missing any other great potential series that qualify in this "New Gods/4th World Stuff"

 

 

I think you can also throw Mister Miracle in there as 4th World. And for what it's worth, I was (and still am) a huge fan of the Demon Etrigan

 

 

[Azkaban]

Mister Miracle is indeed included along with New Gods and Forever People also Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen issues 133 to 147 I believe

[jools&jim]

So pardon my ignorance - but I see the phrase "Kirby's New Gods/4th world stuff" thrown around a lot - and I am trying to figure out the series that this encompasses - obviously New Gods and Forever People - but is there anything else? I am thinking of starting up a collection of New Gods and Forever People (as I like and am intrigued by the characters created there) - but wondering if I am missing any other great potential series that qualify in this "New Gods/4th World Stuff"

Jack Kirby's FOURTH WORLD

 

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

I like the Fourth World stuff for the most part, at least the first year or so of it, but Kirby does start going downhill later in the 70s.

 

He was probably a little burned out as he hit his 60s. The guy was cranking out 3-5 books a month for a long time.

The majority of artists be they comic book artists,rock groups and writers do the majority of thier best work before the age of 50. Yes, there are a few exceptions, but most peaked before 50 years old.

Given that Jack Kirby was still putting out decent stuff in his 60s is pretty good compared to Neal Adams,Steranko and many other artists who did nothing as good as Jack did when they were past 50.

That is why Jack Kirby is The King.

[VintageComics]

Part of it is taste. One friend, a Marvel and DC penciller from years gone by, thinks of the work at DC inked by Royer as his best.

 

I don't.

 

What people said at the time was he had no editor and if anyone told him anything negative the response would be, "I've been doing this for thirty years [so I know what I am doing]".

 

People said a bit later that the fans were expecting something similar to the Marvel work but without the hokeyness that Stan Lee added. We got something entirely different and weren't ready for it.

 

There are so many factors involved and I think the toughest part of it all is for people to analyze themselves in an unbiased fashion.

 

1st, yes there is personal taste.

 

But tastes also change over time, and certainly what may have been appealing even 10 years ago stylistically may not be as appealing today. This is probably the biggest factor.

 

Also, no artist (whether musical or graphic, etc) is stagnant. All artists change over time, even the greats. Neal Adams, Wrightson, Kirby, Ditko.They are always developing their style over time as the mature as people and continue to change the way they express their story telling.

 

Maybe the most recognizable and drastic changes might be Frank Miller because many of us grew up through his phases.

 

He went from stark realism to dark impressionism in such a drastic way that some people are entrenched in either 'love him' or 'hate him' camps. But it's still undeniably and easily recognizably Frank Miller.

 

And that is probably the strongest compliment you can give an artist.

 

What an artist generally strives for is to have their own unique style or way of story telling and all of the greats are instantly recognizable no matter which era they were drawing in.

 

Kirby was never big on proper anatomical realism. The guy couldn't draw knuckles to save his life and yes many faces and females looked alike, but where he excelled over others were areas like story telling from panel to panel, and action sequences that looked like they were going to explode off the page.

 

You may or may not like Kirby but nobody can deny he had his own unique style.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MedicAR]

Career Totals

 

 

20,318 pages of art

679 pages of layouts

1,385 covers

22 cover layouts

 

Career Averages

 

376 pages per year

31 pages per month

1 page per day

26 covers per year

2.2 covers per month

 

Most Pages In A Single Year

 

1158 pages in 1962 (just over 3 pages per day)

 

Most Pages In A Single Month

 

142 pages in 1947

 

Most Covers In A Single Year

 

102 in 1964

 

Most Covers In A Single Month

 

11 covers in October 1976 and January 1977

 

Longest Uniterrupted Period Of Publication

 

July 1958 to January 1978

19 years 7 months

13,133 pages

1,013 covers

 

All information comes courtesy of the "Art of Jack Kirby" by Ray Wyman Jr., Blue Rose Press, 1994

 

----

 

 

I actually thought the totals might be a little more as it sure "seemed" like there were so many stretches where he was doing 3-5 books a month, but I guess those were only a few stretches, or maybe some of those were just covers or bi-monthly books? I mean, when he cam back to marvel in the 70s he was frigging 60 and he was doing Captain America, Black Panther, Devil Dino, Machine Man, 2001, the Eternals and various coveers, but I guess not everything was in the same month.

 

The man was productive!

 

I thought the same thing but can't find anything that's incorrect. Granted, I did only cursory research but didn't find anything out of place. I wonder if our perception comes from Marvel's books actually being bimonthly at first with some titles running two stories. So while he may have only done 31 pages in a month, it could have been three or four titles and all four covers. It's a hypothetical example, not anything I have checked.

 

I love his work and would love to find a Cap or FF sketch by him as I'll never be able to afford a real page!

[the blob]

I like the Fourth World stuff for the most part, at least the first year or so of it, but Kirby does start going downhill later in the 70s.

 

He was probably a little burned out as he hit his 60s. The guy was cranking out 3-5 books a month for a long time.

The majority of artists be they comic book artists,rock groups and writers do the majority of thier best work before the age of 50. Yes, there are a few exceptions, but most peaked before 50 years old.

Given that Jack Kirby was still putting out decent stuff in his 60s is pretty good compared to Neal Adams,Steranko and many other artists who did nothing as good as Jack did when they were past 50.

That is why Jack Kirby is The King.

 

Adams and Steranko did n't do anything particularly memorable, true, but their work is still solid. Steranko hasn't really done comics in a while.

[Chillax23]

So pardon my ignorance - but I see the phrase "Kirby's New Gods/4th world stuff" thrown around a lot - and I am trying to figure out the series that this encompasses - obviously New Gods and Forever People - but is there anything else? I am thinking of starting up a collection of New Gods and Forever People (as I like and am intrigued by the characters created there) - but wondering if I am missing any other great potential series that qualify in this "New Gods/4th World Stuff"

Jack Kirby's FOURTH WORLD

 

 

Awesome - thank you very much!

[Mr. 10%]

I think of the seventies as the pinnacle of Jack's career. For a fan it's pure uncensored awesomeness, passion and fun and has long been the central focus of my collection.

 

For better (for fans like us) or worse, it's about as close as the comics audience ever got to seeing "pure Kirby" unleashed...

 

 

Absolutely. His imagination was totally set free. It's probably blasphemy to many, but I prefer his 70's output (taken as a whole, from New Gods to his Marvel return) over the 60's stuff. It's just so unhinged, I love it.

 

this

this

this ....

[MatterEaterLad]

I remember as a 3rd grader just beginning to appreciate the different artists. I wasn't a fan of Kirby's Captain America in 1976, but then was surprised to realize it was the same artist as the early FFs, which I loved. Then the 4th World stuff blew my mind.

 

I'm guessing part of the "Kirby malaise" was poor inking, and general burnout from Marvel.

[Knightsofold]

New Gods/4th world Kirby was by far his best work.

 

I used to hate Kirby's art but from drawing many comics growing up, and then learning art theory/composition in art school I realized just how good Kirby was.

 

Like many people I was turned off by his rendering he didn't make "nice or realistic" looking humans like Neil Adams, Jim Lee, Perez, etc. Turns out a nice crosshatched human is the easy part. Composition, page flow/design, unique shapes/ideas, and dynamic action is the hardest and what Kirby mastered.

 

I remember Jim Lee showing me an awesome Kirby Thor page he picked up at SDCC in the late 80s with some of that x-men $ and I was thinking "wtf is this " haha.

 

I wish someone told me to think of Kirby's stuff as if it's a different format, like a crazy cartoon that can't have cross hatching etc I might've accepted it easier.

 

My .

 

So pardon my ignorance - but I see the phrase "Kirby's New Gods/4th world stuff" thrown around a lot - and I am trying to figure out the series that this encompasses - obviously New Gods and Forever People - but is there anything else? I am thinking of starting up a collection of New Gods and Forever People (as I like and am intrigued by the characters created there) - but wondering if I am missing any other great potential series that qualify in this "New Gods/4th World Stuff"

 

 

I'm glad you asked because I was being too vague by saying "New Gods/4th World Stuff" what I should have said was that I consider the period from 1971-1978 to be Kirby's best work.

 

He did a lot of pages in this time and there's gems in each title, but my favorite are the ones from the "Fourth World" which starts in Jimmy Olson and continues in Forever People, New Gods, and Mister Miracle.

 

He also did Demon, Kamandi, the Losers, and then Eternals, 2001, Captain America, Black Panther, Machine Man, Devil Dinosaur, the Silver Surfer graphic Novel, and more. All had some amazing moments.

 

 

 

[Prince Namor]

Part of it is taste. One friend, a Marvel and DC penciller from years gone by, thinks of the work at DC inked by Royer as his best.

 

I don't.

 

What people said at the time was he had no editor and if anyone told him anything negative the response would be, "I've been doing this for thirty years [so I know what I am doing]".

 

People said a bit later that the fans were expecting something similar to the Marvel work but without the hokeyness that Stan Lee added. We got something entirely different and weren't ready for it.

 

Well... he didn't get to really finish it...

 

If he'd had to stop the Fantastic Four at issue #11 and Journey into Mystery Thor at issue #94, he wouldn't be remembered as he is today....

[batman_fan]

I love a lot of Kirby's work from the 70s, especially his Demon work.

 

[Zonker]

That Metron double page splash is pretty darn good!

 

What book is it from?

 

New Gods #5 "Spawn" pgs 2-3

[Ken Aldred]

To this day, one of my all time favorite books is Kamandi...sure it was a rip off of Planet of the Apes, but the stories and art really grabbed me. For some reason, right around the same period, his super hero stuff dimmed for me.

 

Alarming Tales 1, featuring Kirby's Kamandi prototype story was published in 1957, Pierre Boulle's Monkey Planet / Planet of the Apes novel in 1963. Kirby actually got there first, with concept.

 

I recently enjoyed re-reading Kamandi and The Eternals, the latter getting quite dark in places.

[Prince Namor]

To this day, one of my all time favorite books is Kamandi...sure it was a rip off of Planet of the Apes, but the stories and art really grabbed me. For some reason, right around the same period, his super hero stuff dimmed for me.

 

Alarming Tales 1, featuring Kirby's Kamandi prototype story was published in 1957, Pierre Boulle's Monkey Planet / Planet of the Apes novel in 1963. Kirby actually got there first, with concept.

 

I recently enjoyed re-reading Kamandi and The Eternals, the latter getting quite dark in places.

 

I wasn't familiar with that, I'll have to check it out!

[40sJohn]

Sorry gang, I hate to do this in a thread that has turned into a love fest for Kirby, but count me as a Jack Kirby hater. I am with the OP in that I think his work turned to in the '70s.

 

I like his golden age work, but his Bronze Age stuff is horrible. I don't care about composition and am totally turned off by the aesthetics of his drawings in general. Not joking. Totally serious.

 

It's hard for me to describe what I don't like. It may be the fingers that look like 2 x 4's lumber or the round faces with block teeth. Whatever it is, it doesn't work for me. I look at Kamandi or New Gods and say, "how can anyone collect this "? The good thing about this thread is that it is giving me an explanation to that question.

 

Carry on.

 

 

[jools&jim]

 

Pierre Boulle's Monkey Planet / Planet of the Apes novel in 1963. Kirby actually got there first, with concept...

...except that H. G. Wells beat them both (conceptually) with The Island of Doctor Moreau in 1896...