Less than NM+: Worthless?

[Reno McCoy]

I recently went around and bought stacks of Adam Hughes comics. Since almost all of them were $3 or less, I decided not to bother opening each bag to inspect the comic down to the finest detail. If the copy presented nicely in the bag, I bought it.

 

When I got home, maybe 1 in 4 showed a spine stress here, a color-breaking crease there (usually on the back). Certainly not the end of the world for a $2 comic, but I did make a note in my tracking software that I wanted an upgrade.Then I realized that anything that's sub-9.6 got an "upgrade needed" tag.

 

I know that not everyone is a condition sensitive as I am, but it seems like anything less than NM+ is worthless for the basic modern comic. Sure, there are some books that command high dollar even at less than uber high grade, but over all, it seems that if you try to sell a book with a spine stress or some sort of crease, you're out of luck.

 

Is that where we are now? That anything published in the last ten years needs to be in nearly perfect condition? Or are there still plenty of people out there who don't mind some minor dings on their comics?

 

 

[SquareChaos]

On this board... yes, for the most part, it's NM+ or better. And even if you have a perfectly presenting copy, if it's not a 'hot book' it's hard to sell, even if it's priced reasonably. You sometimes see more demand for "older" moderns in roughly NM condition though.

 

[Kevin76]

Books in 9.8 from 1980 to present is pretty much the standard grade these days, unless we are talking about a TMNT #1 then any grade is acceptable. Just the way it is.

[Lethal_Collector]

Because there are so many printed new comics and they are easier to find, the only way to really hedge against that and retain any value is to have a flawless copy to separate it from the pack.

 

 

Jerome

[Bill1]

9.8 or nothing!

[H0RR0RSH0W]

I recently went around and bought stacks of Adam Hughes comics. Since almost all of them were $3 or less, I decided not to bother opening each bag to inspect the comic down to the finest detail. If the copy presented nicely in the bag, I bought it.

 

When I got home, maybe 1 in 4 showed a spine stress here, a color-breaking crease there (usually on the back). Certainly not the end of the world for a $2 comic, but I did make a note in my tracking software that I wanted an upgrade.Then I realized that anything that's sub-9.6 got an "upgrade needed" tag.

 

I know that not everyone is a condition sensitive as I am, but it seems like anything less than NM+ is worthless for the basic modern comic. Sure, there are some books that command high dollar even at less than uber high grade, but over all, it seems that if you try to sell a book with a spine stress or some sort of crease, you're out of luck.

 

Is that where we are now? That anything published in the last ten years needs to be in nearly perfect condition? Or are there still plenty of people out there who don't mind some minor dings on their comics?

 

 

I had a conversation similar to this with a LCS owner about a year ago. As he took me on a tour of the slabs he had on display I let slip, in reference to his Preacher #1 CGC9.0 that would be a hard book to sell. Unfortunately anything under 9.6 falls off very quickly in terms of value or selling price so said I. Looking to overpopulation of the census being the root cause, it is numerically more common.

 

Au contraire was his reply referring to an up-coming movie or TV event-something-something about demand being high.

 

Whilst the book is more that 10 years old it does fall in the modern era.

[thehumantorch]

I think you should always consider who you'd sell a book to.

 

Anyone looking for a slab worthy modern book for his collection is probably looking for 9.6 and up. Anyone looking for a book to read may not care about condition. The slab worthy guys will pay up and the reader guy wants them cheap.

 

If a book garners a high price for high grade that may push demand down to lower grade copies and fill the gap between the high grade collector and the reader. If it's not that expensive in high grade there's no reason for a collector to go downgrade.

[UltraMaximus]

On this board, most of these guys really don't strike me as the "dig in long boxes to find a good raw" to submit. There are subscription 9.8 services, or they look for an already graded copy. I am sorry to say there is no way to get an unbiased answer from these boards.

 

Imagine if that 9.8 or worthless mentality applied to older books too, lets say an Action Comics #1. 9.0 being the highest grade I think? Could you image people snubbing their nose at it because it isn't a 9.8? I feel the same way about anything under 9.0 but for me VF/NM is still pretty darn good considering I wok at a comic shop, and know 8.5 VF+ to be the average condition a book arrives in.

 

I honestly also feel that the people here cause the huge gap between the 9.6 and the 9.8 grades just because it happens to be 2 board members both after that 9.8 copy, they bid against each other driving the 9.8 "value" up. EXAMPLE: Sure they both legitimately want the book, one will eventually get it and actually pay for it (we hope it to be shill free), but this is how a 9.8 becomes $1k, and the 9.6 stays $200. The 9.6 might catch up in value eventually as it prices some people out of 9.8 territory, but I don't want to get to deep into the subject. It is a grey area as to whether or not people here use "slab market manipulation" to further line their own pockets.

 

Collect what you like without the worry of flipping it, and you'll never overpay. But collect cautiously to not overpay by examining sales on eBay, and cgc 90 day averages to make sure you aren't left "holding the bag".

[Lonzilla]

If I slab a book for my collection and it comes back a 9.6 of course I'm disappointed, devastated if it's a 9.4, same for selling slabs because I wanna make as much profit as possible and buy more junk that I don't need.

There's loads of good moderns, let's just say non-variants to make it easier that will always sell well raw even in 9.0,9.2,9.4, Detective 880 comes to mind immediately.

Not everyone collects slabs

[Kevin76]

On this board, most of these guys really don't strike me as the "dig in long boxes to find a good raw" to submit. There are subscription 9.8 services, or they look for an already graded copy. I am sorry to say there is no way to get an unbiased answer from these boards.

 

Imagine if that 9.8 or worthless mentality applied to older books too, lets say an Action Comics #1. 9.0 being the highest grade I think? Could you image people snubbing their nose at it because it isn't a 9.8? I feel the same way about anything under 9.0 but for me VF/NM is still pretty darn good considering I wok at a comic shop, and know 8.5 VF+ to be the average condition a book arrives in.

 

I honestly also feel that the people here cause the huge gap between the 9.6 and the 9.8 grades just because it happens to be 2 board members both after that 9.8 copy, they bid against each other driving the 9.8 "value" up. EXAMPLE: Sure they both legitimately want the book, one will eventually get it and actually pay for it (we hope it to be shill free), but this is how a 9.8 becomes $1k, and the 9.6 stays $200. The 9.6 might catch up in value eventually as it prices some people out of 9.8 territory, but I don't want to get to deep into the subject. It is a grey area as to whether or not people here use "slab market manipulation" to further line their own pockets.

 

Collect what you like without the worry of flipping it, and you'll never overpay. But collect cautiously to not overpay by examining sales on eBay, and cgc 90 day averages to make sure you aren't left "holding the bag".

 

I personally don't use 9.8 subscription services and never will. I do look through boxes to try and find a 9.8's. I'm typically not finding them like I used too, for "common books of the 80's and early 90's" 9.8's are becoming harder and harder to find. I hate big shows because 1) way too many people around makes me dizzy and 2) Sky high prices on common key books with defects with dealers using the "it sells on eBay for..." excuse.

 

Golden age books are just too rare in general to be overly picky about condition to say "I only buy 9.0+ of books from the 1940's" If you have that mentality, don't expect to have much of a golden age collection.

 

I collect what I like but I also flip books, so I am concerned about costs. I use eBay's sold listings as a guide to see how much books are selling for, not what they are being listed for as a guide to pricing. Big difference to what people are listing for and what people are actually willing to pay for it.

[CBT]

If a book is valuable in 9.8 and not in 9.4, you are almost certainly dealing with speculation boosted value. It's always a good measure of the stability and validity of a books value, if its valuable across all grades, or only at the top.

 

It's also a good way to tell when something is cooling off, because lower grade books will fall first, while the highest hold on the longest.

[Batverse]

Because there are so many printed new comics and they are easier to find, the only way to really hedge against that and retain any value is to have a flawless copy to separate it from the pack.

 

 

Jerome

 

That's part of it for sure but it even goes beyond that I think. Look at all of these store variants that have print runs of 1500 or 3000. The only way to make any decent money with them is if they get a 9.8 and even then it can be dicey. Shipping costs, ebay fees and Paypal fees start to add up. It's hard to garner interest for most books in 9.6. Anything less than 9.6 seems to be regarded as garbage. It blows my mind at the value differences between 9.8 and 9.6. 9.6's are lucky to get half of what 9.8s get sometimes and the crazy thing is most people can't look at the books and tell the difference. That is if you can even find anyone willing to buy a 9.6.

 

 

I do realize that store variants are treated differently than regular books or even 1 in x books. I see a store variant with a print run of 1000 and thing that sounds really limited but other people look at that and don't consider it so. Whenever I do go to submit again I think I'll go with 9.8 as the minimum acceptable grade for regular blue label books.

[adampasz]

Great topic. I'm curious to hear more about the 9.8 services -- including recommendations and pros & cons.

 

When I buy moderns I usually use DCBS, with the discount. Also, I usually buy them with the intention to read, not as an investment. In some cases you can recoup your purchase on eBay, but you're certainly not going to make any significant money.

 

I also enjoy going to the LCS, and I look for #1s and other key books that are in nice shape. Again, I'm not expecting to get rich on them, but it's part of the fun of collecting.

 

For investment, raw or slabbed, you're probably better off buying moderns in NM+. There are people out there who will buy the lower grades, but you probably wouldn't be able to sell for much more than 50$ on average. This weekend I was able to net $63 on a 9.4 New 52 Suicide Squad #1.

Also, covers and variants need to be a part of your consideration if you're looking to invest in moderns.

The Suicide Squad #1 was an example of a modern that has some good things going for it: It's a nice cover featuring a popular character, and you can see it gets a lot of "action" in the sold listings.

 

[the blob]

I disagree. I have sold plenty of non 9.8 calber moderns for plenty more than I paid. Heck, I was selling tons of generic WD books for double digits each that were 8.0 - 9.4 as I had fished them out of bargain boxes before the series exploded. Ditto Deadpool first series. As for your Adam Hughes covers..depends on which one. If it's a cool cover and you say it's "NM or better" then I think there will be plenty of interest. Not every cover Hughes does is a big seller anyway.

 

Most raw modern collectors, which is 90% of the buyers out there, maybe more, want a nice copy, but it doesn't always need to be perfect.

 

As for the Preacher 1 9.0..the last few have sold for $100-$170. Considering that's probably the average grade for that book raw out in the wild, I think that's a pretty healthy price. (indeed, a raw vf/nm sold last week for as much as the last CGC 9.0 did..go figure)

 

Or are you talking about slabbing these books that are 9.4s and 9.6ses? Yes, then you are wasting your money (other than for a few expensive keys out there, maybe)

 

Also, when re-selling and "being out of luck," what are you talking about? Trying to get 9.8 slab prices for a 9.6 raw or re-selling these for $2-3? I think there's plenty of a market for "NM or better" moderns at $2-$3 (or even $5 or maybe more!) if they are books people care about...like those Hughes covers.

 

 

[CBT]

Because there are so many printed new comics and they are easier to find, the only way to really hedge against that and retain any value is to have a flawless copy to separate it from the pack.

 

 

Jerome

 

That's part of it for sure but it even goes beyond that I think. Look at all of these store variants that have print runs of 1500 or 3000. The only way to make any decent money with them is if they get a 9.8 and even then it can be dicey. Shipping costs, ebay fees and Paypal fees start to add up. It's hard to garner interest for most books in 9.6. Anything less than 9.6 seems to be regarded as garbage. It blows my mind at the value differences between 9.8 and 9.6. 9.6's are lucky to get half of what 9.8s get sometimes and the crazy thing is most people can't look at the books and tell the difference. That is if you can even find anyone willing to buy a 9.6.

 

 

I do realize that store variants are treated differently than regular books or even 1 in x books. I see a store variant with a print run of 1000 and thing that sounds really limited but other people look at that and don't consider it so. Whenever I do go to submit again I think I'll go with 9.8 as the minimum acceptable grade for regular blue label books.

 

 

There is more than one form of "rarity". There is rarity in printing, and rarity in availability. 1:X variants are far more geographically dispersed. It's extremely difficult for horders/flippers/speculators to buy multiple copies of 1:X variants. They might get a few, but they arent going to have 10,20,30 etc.

Also, 1:X variants are far more likely to be purchased by people who dont sell comics. That means they wont reappear until they sell there collection some day, and remain dispersed.

 

I usually refer to three types of availability rarity:

Weak Hands - Primary market, flippers, holders of many copies. They want to sell

Strong Hands - Secondary market purchasers, might see it as a long term book to hold, might have a couple of copies but no more, and will always keep one for their "Personal Collection". Generally purchase from the Secondary Market

Collector Hands - Don't care or likely even know about a comicbooks value, have never sold a comic book before. Generally purchase from the Primary Market

 

Store variants rarely make it into Collector Hands in large volumes. If the store isnt in their geographical location, they wont know of a store variant. If its not listed in price guides, either paper or online, because its a self-produced variant, they won't know about it for OCD Completionist type behaviour.

 

Just some general comments on the headwinds to store variants holding value long term.

[Aweandlorder]

Buy the book not the grade

15+ years ago youd look at 3 major conditions with distinguished pricing: Fine, VF, NM

The new standard for pricing is still 3 conditions, only difference is they start at 9.4

 

 

 

 

[Lethal_Collector]

Whenever I do go to submit again I think I'll go with 9.8 as the minimum acceptable grade for regular blue label books.

 

The problem with that is, you need to sub 25 books at once to do that (or know someone who can lump your books in with theirs). Thats the only thing I don't like about CGC; the crazy high pre-screen requirement

 

 

Jerome

[CBT]

Just a follow up, "way" back in 06/07 when I was getting in to variants a bit more, and hunting down some of the modern variants I wanted, it was extremely difficult. They weren't seen as "high value" (though they werent cheap), and they tended to be extremely dispersed and mostly in Collector's hands.

 

As Ebay and comic speculation has become more rampant, some of those hard to find variants back then are much easier to find now, but not all of them. Some of them are brutally hard to find. They might have print runs in the range of 1000-2000, but they are FAR FAR harder to find then many 500 or smaller print run books from 2012 forward.

 

There are 2-4 times as many of them in existence, but they are in strong hands and collector's hands, while many 2012+ books are in weak hands still.

 

Also worth noting, the ones like that which are rarely seen despite having thousands of copies, sell well even in 8.5-9.4. No modern really does well below VF because there is no excuse for it anymore, but available rarity is an important thing to understand, and how it relates to printed rarity.

[the blob]

I got over $100 for a mid-grade WD 33 2d print! (It was mid-grade because I fished it out of a $1 box and it was in the box because it had gotten damaged on the rack no doubt)

[CBT]

Whenever I do go to submit again I think I'll go with 9.8 as the minimum acceptable grade for regular blue label books.

 

The problem with that is, you need to sub 25 books at once to do that (or know someone who can lump your books in with theirs). Thats the only thing I don't like about CGC; the crazy high pre-screen requirement

 

 

Jerome

 

their business is to drive volume. I think they generally cater to facilitators who submit other peoples books and are to concerned with the hardcore individuals who submit their own stuff. They know if you are doing the work to submit your own books, you are probably going to submit a lot of books anyway.