Less than NM+: Worthless?

[aerischan]

Honestly, I wouldn't blame it on the store. I've seen how other customers handle shelf copies so I'm not at all surprised to see 7.5-8.5 books a couple months after release.

 

I know better in that the sub-service customers are the ones who got the highest grades and that I do blame on the shop. Not every book is born perfect but gone are the days of printing mishaps and twine tied bundles being carelessly tossed on newsstand doorsteps.

 

You are right though. I should not sound paranoid but what grinds my gears is that books in that type of condition should not be selling for cover price un-bagged with no boards. I expect more because I am an educated consumer and I am free to go elsewhere.

 

I still wouldn't blame the store. The sub-service copies never get shelved and are handled once by the store clerk. Meanwhile, you can have 10+ customers pawing through and reading shelf copies in a single day. For obvious reasons, less handling means greater chances that the sub-service books will remain in high condition compared to shelf copies.

 

As for selling less than 9.4 NM copies of new books below cover, comic shops are businesses. They have rent, payroll, utilities and they need to be able to make profit, too. DCBS is able to offer relatively large discounts because of guaranteed sales and high volume discounts. I doubt most LCS can afford to do the same.

[Batverse]

Whenever I do go to submit again I think I'll go with 9.8 as the minimum acceptable grade for regular blue label books.

 

The problem with that is, you need to sub 25 books at once to do that (or know someone who can lump your books in with theirs). Thats the only thing I don't like about CGC; the crazy high pre-screen requirement

 

 

Jerome

 

Does that have to be 25 of the same book or 25 books total?

 

https://www.cgccomics.com/services/prescreen.asp

 

 

They do not have to be the same book.

 

Thank you for posting that. Does anybody know what their rejection fee is if a book comes in lower than the desired grade?

[World Devourer]

The real change in the hobby is that people now collect slabbed books, read trade or digital (or increasingly, don't read at all), and so don't collect runs anymore. We all know it's all about keys - if you have a key modern in NM or better, chances are you can find someone that wants it. If you're trying to sell a run, things get a lot more difficult as your audience narrows considerably.

 

Bingo. That encapsulates everything. Because CGC has made it possible for numerous Modern 9.8s to be available, that has become the norm. Unfortunately, anyone grading any non-key issues that are less than 9.6 is wasting their time.

[Bird]

Whenever I do go to submit again I think I'll go with 9.8 as the minimum acceptable grade for regular blue label books.

 

The problem with that is, you need to sub 25 books at once to do that (or know someone who can lump your books in with theirs). Thats the only thing I don't like about CGC; the crazy high pre-screen requirement

 

 

Jerome

 

Does that have to be 25 of the same book or 25 books total?

 

https://www.cgccomics.com/services/prescreen.asp

 

 

They do not have to be the same book.

 

Thank you for posting that. Does anybody know what their rejection fee is if a book comes in lower than the desired grade?

 

$5/book that doesn't make the grade

[Batverse]

Thanks again. I wish I would have done this with the pile of Rebirth books I submitted. I got a lot of 9.8s but I also go a lot below that too. I'm new to this so I can't really look at a book and know whether it is a 9.6 or a 9.8. Oh well live and learn.

[SquareChaos]

Thanks again. I wish I would have done this with the pile of Rebirth books I submitted. I got a lot of 9.8s but I also go a lot below that too. I'm new to this so I can't really look at a book and know whether it is a 9.6 or a 9.8. Oh well live and learn.

 

When you're new, if you see any flaw on a book that you only want a 9.8 on, then don't submit it. As you see more and more modern slabs you'll start to notice that some defects do exist on 9.8s, but there's little reason to risk it with some brand new book unless it's something you don't think you can get your hands on another copy of.

 

Flaws inside of the book are obviously harder to gain familiarity with by doing much more than submitting, but again, with moderns why take the risk? If a book is currently hot, if you're in no hurry, time is on your side.

 

Just my advice anyway.

[mschmidt]

I feel the same way about anything under 9.0 but for me VF/NM is still pretty darn good considering I wok at a comic shop, and know 8.5 VF+ to be the average condition a book arrives in.

 

If that's truly the case, your shop needs to stop intentionally damaging their books.

 

8.5 for a brand new modern is crazy low - there's no chance that's the average condition for books coming from Diamond.

 

Agreed - I would not have a pull list at this shop.

 

Having said that... my LCS owner fights a never ending battle with Diamond and is constantly calling to get replacements on damaged stock. He caters to collectors, and he knows he'll lose them if he gives them anything less than NM copies.

 

It's not the shop it's Diamond, and the store does the same thing, sometimes never getting replacements for variants and other damaged books.

 

Since we cut out the UPS delivery and pick up the order ourselves they have gotten a little better but you guys are missing the point! Hardly any books that make it out are 9.4 or better without a press!

 

That just isn't true either. I have a 40+ title pull list at my LCS and the vast majority of books I get every month are at least 9.4. And my LCS doesn't do anything special to my books - they pull them from a Diamond box and put them in my box.

 

No stores should be putting 8.5 copies of brand new moderns on the racks - they should be returned to Diamond for a refund or exchange.

 

Are you ok with buying a brand new book from Amazon and receiving a copy where all the corners are damaged and the cover has a tear? Of course not.

[SquareChaos]

I feel the same way about anything under 9.0 but for me VF/NM is still pretty darn good considering I wok at a comic shop, and know 8.5 VF+ to be the average condition a book arrives in.

 

If that's truly the case, your shop needs to stop intentionally damaging their books.

 

8.5 for a brand new modern is crazy low - there's no chance that's the average condition for books coming from Diamond.

 

Agreed - I would not have a pull list at this shop.

 

Having said that... my LCS owner fights a never ending battle with Diamond and is constantly calling to get replacements on damaged stock. He caters to collectors, and he knows he'll lose them if he gives them anything less than NM copies.

 

It's not the shop it's Diamond, and the store does the same thing, sometimes never getting replacements for variants and other damaged books.

 

Since we cut out the UPS delivery and pick up the order ourselves they have gotten a little better but you guys are missing the point! Hardly any books that make it out are 9.4 or better without a press!

 

That just isn't true either. I have a 40+ title pull list at my LCS and the vast majority of books I get every month are at least 9.4. And my LCS doesn't do anything special to my books - they pull them from a Diamond box and put them in my box.

 

No stores should be putting 8.5 copies of brand new moderns on the racks - they should be returned to Diamond for a refund or exchange.

 

Are you ok with buying a brand new book from Amazon and receiving a copy where all the corners are damaged and the cover has a tear? Of course not.

 

You'll see some disparity based on what Diamond distribution center you get I have to imagine.

[aerischan]

Are you ok with buying a brand new book from Amazon and receiving a copy where all the corners are damaged and the cover has a tear? Of course not.

Extensive damage and tears? Of course not.

 

However, blunted corners/edges and slight dents on TPBs and bent edges on dustjackets seem to be the norm from Amazon. If CGC graded TPBs and HCs, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see books from Amazon graded at 8.0-8.5. Given Amazon's crummy packaging, can't even tell if the books are already like that at the warehouse or if it's because FedEx/UPS/USPS played soccer with the package, either.

 

The trades I get from InStockTrades are in much, much better condition.

[the authority]

I disagree. I have sold plenty of non 9.8 calber moderns for plenty more than I paid. Heck, I was selling tons of generic WD books for double digits each that were 8.0 - 9.4 as I had fished them out of bargain boxes before the series exploded. Ditto Deadpool first series. As for your Adam Hughes covers..depends on which one. If it's a cool cover and you say it's "NM or better" then I think there will be plenty of interest. Not every cover Hughes does is a big seller anyway.

 

Most raw modern collectors, which is 90% of the buyers out there, maybe more, want a nice copy, but it doesn't always need to be perfect.

 

As for the Preacher 1 9.0..the last few have sold for $100-$170. Considering that's probably the average grade for that book raw out in the wild, I think that's a pretty healthy price. (indeed, a raw vf/nm sold last week for as much as the last CGC 9.0 did..go figure)

 

Or are you talking about slabbing these books that are 9.4s and 9.6ses? Yes, then you are wasting your money (other than for a few expensive keys out there, maybe)

 

Also, when re-selling and "being out of luck," what are you talking about? Trying to get 9.8 slab prices for a 9.6 raw or re-selling these for $2-3? I think there's plenty of a market for "NM or better" moderns at $2-$3 (or even $5 or maybe more!) if they are books people care about...like those Hughes covers.

 

 

Agree with the $2-5 books in moderns, at least until recently. I can't tell if we're dealing with a very unusual and overly harsh seasonal adjustment or if people have just quit buying lots and runs but I'm absolutely stealing books for the last 3 months in lot sales. Normally it takes more work to buy them this cheap but they are everywhere. It feels like a massive dump of modern runs and even some formerly hot variant books is taking place. We shall see how long it lasts....

[the authority]

Walking Dead, as we all know, is a phenomenon unto itself - they should be lumped into the 'other' category for the purposes of this discussion.

 

 

The real change in the hobby is that people now collect slabbed books, read trade or digital (or increasingly, don't read at all), and so don't collect runs anymore. We all know it's all about keys - if you have a key modern in NM or better, chances are you can find someone that wants it. If you're trying to sell a run, things get a lot more difficult as your audience narrows considerably.

 

Haha ! I just wrote something similar prior to coming to your statement. It strikes me as odd that people aren't reading comics but buying them anyway. I don't see that lasting long term but people are unpredictable in general. I'm personally thankful that people are chasing variants and reprints and leaving the runs to people that do like to read and collect.

[trinitynzxt]

I was happy to score my CGC SS 9.2 Spawn #1 B/W variant spine breaks and all.

[Cyrax]

I only buy stuff I truly care about. I'm also not into this to make money. I'm also not a super rich guy or a big time playa. I buy cool looking variants from series I'm subbed to, so I read the regular copy, and will cgc the variants.

 

200-300$ is my limit when purchasing slabbed comics.

 

I kinda see slabbing as 'archiving' comics rather than doing it for a business opportunity. I display them on my walls at home, and rotate them out every couple of months.

 

I do fully understand why people requires 9.8 to make a comic worth slabbing, if they don't have any particular attachment to it. Why waste time and money, especially if theres no market when you're in this for resale.

 

When I visit my LCS and see all those random issues slabbed, I can't help but wonder they they got those issues slabbed.. but then again, I remind myself that maybe there's a fan out it out there, and that random issue is important to them.

 

 

[aerischan]

I kinda see slabbing as 'archiving' comics rather than doing it for a business opportunity. I display them on my walls at home, and rotate them out every couple of months.

 

I do fully understand why people requires 9.8 to make a comic worth slabbing, if they don't have any particular attachment to it. Why waste time and money, especially if theres no market when you're in this for resale.

Agreed on the archiving part. I think slabbing is the best option for preserving comics followed by Mylar + fullback.

 

If one slabs for investment, then yeah, 9.8 seems minimum for moderns. Probably because availability in high grade (at least VF/NM 9.0) is pretty easy so 9.8 has become the new target for rarity. What's interesting is you can probably find more 9.8 slabs of "rare/HTF" variant comics with 500-3,000 print runs than you will a regular issue with a 20,000 print run. Granted, greater chances of having a whole bunch of raw 9.8 candidates with the higher print run now that bagging and boarding is the norm.

 

When I visit my LCS and see all those random issues slabbed, I can't help but wonder they they got those issues slabbed.. but then again, I remind myself that maybe there's a fan out it out there, and that random issue is important to them.

Honestly, if it wasn't for this board, AF15, Tec 27 and Hulk 181 all just seem like random issues to me.

[Aweandlorder]

Whenever I do go to submit again I think I'll go with 9.8 as the minimum acceptable grade for regular blue label books.

 

The problem with that is, you need to sub 25 books at once to do that (or know someone who can lump your books in with theirs). Thats the only thing I don't like about CGC; the crazy high pre-screen requirement

 

 

Jerome

 

Does that have to be 25 of the same book or 25 books total?

 

https://www.cgccomics.com/services/prescreen.asp

 

 

They do not have to be the same book.

 

Thank you for posting that. Does anybody know what their rejection fee is if a book comes in lower than the desired grade?

 

Count your blessings. It used to be a 50 book minimum requirement

The way the market is headed it seems like 9.8 is THE ONLY grade to look for on non/semi key modern books nowadays. By getting a lower grade, even a 9.6, on a non key book causes sellers to dump books on ebay for less than cost (grading fees factored) and RIDICULOSLY saturating the market.

Buying and selling on eBay extensively for the past few years I can tell you that Ive never seen such a high volume of graded books hit the pavement as I have in recent months.

 

Here are HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of 9.6 (ONLY) that closed at a loss for the seller just because they were dumping their "rejects". Wouldve been less expensive for the seller to simply risk the 5 bucks on a pre-screen and by doing that resulting in a much healthier market.

 

[Lethal_Collector]

I think they should drop the pre-screen minimum to 15 to match the CCS minimum for QuickPress. If they are basically one in the same/buddy-buddy, it only makes sense to me and I'd do a lot more pre-screen submissions. Anyone know the reasoning why it was 50 and now still 25?

 

 

Jerome

[Reno McCoy]

So, in summary:

 

• Fewer and fewer people are reading floppies (readers can use other options like trades or digital, too).
  
• Modern collectors seem to only want uber high grade.
  
• Few (or at least, fewer) collectors collect runs, and instead focus on keys.
  
• Fewer comics are printed today, yet more of those copies are available in high grade.
  
• Graded comic pricing is getting more and more expensive.

I'm not one to get into the sky is falling camp or forecast doom and gloom about the hobby, but something about this equation feels wrong. But it does make me question: where do we go from here?

 

If everyone who is collecting is chasing HG, it feels like maybe, eventually, those 9.8s won't feel special anymore. Or the rising costs of slabbing, shipping, fees, etc. will eventually price more collectors out of that particular chase because more people are chasing the grade instead of the book.

 

And the notion of just chasing key issues, which by their very nature shouldn't be frequently produced, feels like the collecting community is focusing on such a tiny portion of what's available. It just all feels like, overall, the collecting focus is shrinking waaaay down.

 

 

 

[CBT]

that's cause its more speculating than collecting, even if its things people are keeping and not selling, they are buying it for future value, even as PC items.

 

Most were burned by the large print runs in the 90s, so have gone overboard chasing small print runs now, even if they are of books no one cares about, other than speculators.

 

 

[Aweandlorder]

So, in summary:

 

• Fewer and fewer people are reading floppies (readers can use other options like trades or digital, too).
  
• Modern collectors seem to only want uber high grade.
  
• Few (or at least, fewer) collectors collect runs, and instead focus on keys.
  
• Fewer comics are printed today, yet more of those copies are available in high grade.
  
• Graded comic pricing is getting more and more expensive.

I'm not one to get into the sky is falling camp or forecast doom and gloom about the hobby, but something about this equation feels wrong. But it does make me question: where do we go from here?

 

If everyone who is collecting is chasing HG, it feels like maybe, eventually, those 9.8s won't feel special anymore. Or the rising costs of slabbing, shipping, fees, etc. will eventually price more collectors out of that particular chase because more people are chasing the grade instead of the book.

 

And the notion of just chasing key issues, which by their very nature shouldn't be frequently produced, feels like the collecting community is focusing on such a tiny portion of what's available. It just all feels like, overall, the collecting focus is shrinking waaaay down.

 

 

 

Yes and no

Remember, the trend of current books gaining instant value has started populate in the mid 80s, and since then experienced a major crash. So is speculating/investing in modern books a sustainable hobby?

it probably is. It just needs to be proportionate

I dont blame the grading companies. Not more than I blame dumb sellers for making dumb decisions.

"Heres a Turok #1, WOW!! Look how Mint it is, lets grade it as is!"

No. Put that drek back in the box or pre-screen it. Or, obviously, encapsulate it for your PC

[aerischan]

that's cause its more speculating than collecting, even if its things people are keeping and not selling, they are buying it for future value, even as PC items.

 

Most were burned by the large print runs in the 90s, so have gone overboard chasing small print runs now, even if they are of books no one cares about, other than speculators.

This is an interesting situation to observe. Honestly, I wouldn't even begin to pretend that I can predict how collecting current moderns will play out in future. There's probably gonna be a nifty name by then to denote generation (Brass Age, Plastic Age?).

 

I just buy what I like as long as the price is right (which is typically $15-20 tops per book but more like $1-4 on average). No reward but no risk either and I'm not stuck with junk I don't care for.