Marvel finally realizing it's current universe isn't so hot... 0

[SquareChaos]

2 minutes ago, natevegas said:

No worries.  Maybe they realize this "experiment" sales wise didn't work out so well now that DC is kicking their collective hind quarters with their Rebirth launch.  I had this discussion a couple weeks ago with friends and my point to them was why can't these legacy fill-ins have their own identity / mantle without leeching onto their original.  For instance Tony Stark (Iron Man) make a suit for Riri and not his suit / name.  What is really bad is X-men last 2 years I've stopped buying and I'm sure I'm not the only one.  I honestly don't think Marvel even knows who / what made the x-men who they are.

They should go full on corporate and put out an RFP for brand new character concepts and initial story arcs + backgrounds. I know they're constantly looking at new talent portfolios, but they should also consider committing to some number, maybe five to ten new books, with the only requirement being that these are net-new, non-derivative characters created to exist in the MCU.

 

I'm certain they'd likely get a lot of proposals even if those proposals may not come from the A-List crowd... but that's the second point, this would in practice be a high profile new talent recruitment drive. Take some chances, get the corporate overlords to reinvest some of that movie money into the goose that laid the golden egg... in other words, try something new and shake things up a bit.

[ComicConnoisseur]

50 minutes ago, MadGenius said:

Good question, and it depends on the definition of "successful." I think the answer might be Runaways in 2003 and Alias in 2001. Not that either property has been continuously published since inception, but both are popular with fans and are getting multimedia exposure.

I'm not sure this can be done in todays market for two reasons:

1) A $3.99 or $4.99 comic featuring a completely unknown character/concept is a tough sell these days. Retailers won't take a chance on it meaning it would be doomed to cancelation six issues in.

2) Writers and artists don't want to create new characters that Disney/Marvel will ultimately own. Why do that when they can take their great concept to Image or another publisher and own 100% of it? This is the real reason why we're seeing so many derivative characters.

There's a way around this...take a C or D-List established character that already exists and make them better. This is what Grant Morrisson did for DC in the 80s with Animal Man and what Ryan North and Erica Henderson are doing with Squirrel Girl at Marvel right now.

If I ever broke into Marvel.  I let them own my character.  Why? My reasoning is that is the biggest stage in comics to get noticed.  Look how big Liefeld got with creating Deadpool.  Become big at Marvel first than go create something at Image later.  You think a lot more of these writers would just create one decent new character for Marvel.  

Even Bill Mantlo came up with Rocket Racoon.  The reward seems to outweigh the risk for creating something new.  

[ComicConnoisseur]

19 minutes ago, SquareChaos said:

They should go full on corporate and put out an RFP for brand new character concepts and initial story arcs + backgrounds. I know they're constantly looking at new talent portfolios, but they should also consider committing to some number, maybe five to ten new books, with the only requirement being that these are net-new, non-derivative characters created to exist in the MCU.

 

I'm certain they'd likely get a lot of proposals even if those proposals may not come from the A-List crowd... but that's the second point, this would in practice be a high profile new talent recruitment drive. Take some chances, get the corporate overlords to reinvest some of that movie money into the goose that laid the golden egg... in other words, try something new and shake things up a bit.

I notice maybe what might also be missing is artist/writer combos like McFarlane,Frank Miller and Jim Starlin.  You really don't see any modern equivalent to them now.  

 

 

[thehumantorch]

On 2/9/2017 at 5:37 PM, Mercury Man said:

 

Good read.....

https://moviepilot.com/p/marvel-comics-legacy-heroes-politics-x-men/4204054

Interesting link thanks

[thehumantorch]

On 2/10/2017 at 9:50 PM, fastballspecial27 said:

I am not sure Marvel can bring the X-men back to any short of relevance anymore. I know understand why Spider-man fans hate Marvel so much. I never thought it would happen to the X-men, but it has. I just think the writers just don't understand the core themes within the X-men anymore.

Its embarrassing to read an X book now. I will never make fun of Spider-man fans again. I am getting the treatment they have been getting for years now.

 

God, try reading the last 10 years of Fantastic Four.  I've been a die hard collector of the title and buying new issues every month for 40 years and there's a reason the title was cancelled.  It was absolute garbage.  Marvel, how can you take long established characters, and serve up ridiculous, unreadable,  boring content year after year?  I didn't even shed a tear when I cancelled it from my pull file.  Well, maybe a tear of joy.....

[Lazyboy]

3 hours ago, Lonzilla1 said:

Who was the last new Marvel character to have a successful ongoing series where they were introduced in their own book. By "new" I mean original character. Not a reboot, rename, relaunch, gender swap, race swap, son of whoever, daughter of whoever, spoof of whoever, alternate universe version of whoever. I honestly can't think of one since ROM.

The house of ideas is fresh out of fresh ideas

ROM was a licensed property, not a Marvel character.

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

If I ever broke into Marvel.  I let them own my character.  Why? My reasoning is that is the biggest stage in comics to get noticed.  Look how big Liefeld got with creating Deadpool.  Become big at Marvel first than go create something at Image later.  You think a lot more of these writers would just create one decent new character for Marvel.  

Even Bill Mantlo came up with Rocket Racoon.  The reward seems to outweigh the risk for creating something new.  

I'll let somebody else have this one.

[porcupine48]

4 hours ago, Lonzilla1 said:

Who was the last new Marvel character to have a successful ongoing series where they were introduced in their own book. By "new" I mean original character. Not a reboot, rename, relaunch, gender swap, race swap, son of whoever, daughter of whoever, spoof of whoever, alternate universe version of whoever. I honestly can't think of one since ROM.

The house of ideas is fresh out of fresh ideas

Sleepwalker? Darkhawk?Nth Man?

 

[fastballspecial]

19 hours ago, thehumantorch said:

God, try reading the last 10 years of Fantastic Four.  I've been a die hard collector of the title and buying new issues every month for 40 years and there's a reason the title was cancelled.  It was absolute garbage.  Marvel, how can you take long established characters, and serve up ridiculous, unreadable,  boring content year after year?  I didn't even shed a tear when I cancelled it from my pull file.  Well, maybe a tear of joy.....

Mark Waid had FF right for awhile. His re-launch had it right. They are explorers not super heroes. There is touching panel with Reed talking to his daughter about how he made a mistake years ago and is trying to make up for it. Been years since I have read that book, but that panel was priceless and the last time I enjoyed FF.

[Mercury Man]

16 minutes ago, fastballspecial27 said:

Mark Waid had FF right for awhile. His re-launch had it right. They are explorers not super heroes. There is touching panel with Reed talking to his daughter about how he made a mistake years ago and is trying to make up for it. Been years since I have read that book, but that panel was priceless and the last time I enjoyed FF.

Given the disaster of the 2015 Fantastic Four movie, Marvel probably figured it would be best to shelve the title, while the public forgets that movie was ever made.   It should be about time now to bring them back.  There is no way that the FF should be gone as a flagship title for this long.  Bring in top talent, and make the Fantastic Four relevant again! 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Mercury Man

[drotto]

2 minutes ago, Mercury Man said:

Given the disaster of the 2015 Fantastic Four movie, Marvel probably figured it would be best to shelve the title, while the public forgets that movie was ever made.   It should be about time now to bring them back.  There is no way that the FF should be gone as a flagship title for this long.  Bring in top talent, and make the Fantastic Four relevant again! 

Marvel has also left FF as the key for rebooting the Marvel Universe.  Remember, RR is the one that is making the new worlds to repopulate the multiverse. This in theory gives him the power to get Marvel out of this mess.

[SquareChaos]

I always assumed I was in the majority for not having cared about the Fantastic Four since... the mid-80s I guess? When did Byrne's run end? I moved on to Spider-man, along with most of the rest of the Marvel fan boys I guess.

Maybe I've missed some runs worth reading though, but I don't see Marvel using the FF to tie everything back together. If they don't own the movie rights it seems like things (other than Spider-man) get a back seat in the actual comics.

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

With the Marvel Universe movies being so successful, and universally being loved around the world we would think Marvel Comics would use the Marvel movies as a benchmark to base their comic books on,but no Marvel Comics goes in the opposite direction. I think it`'s a sort of arrogance of the comics division's part as in hey the comics were first, and they know better. except  the movies are based on the real Marvel Comic  characters, and not the current crop.

[natevegas]

6 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

With the Marvel Universe movies being so successful, and universally being loved around the world we would think Marvel Comics would use the Marvel movies as a benchmark to base their comic books on,but no Marvel Comics goes in the opposite direction. I think it`'s a sort of arrogance of the comics division's part as in hey the comics were first, and they know better. except  the movies are based on the real Marvel Comic  characters, and not the current crop.

+1 For a company this successful they sure are not lining up their current movies with the current lineup at all.  You would think both would be in balance.  I think Marvel missed a opportunity to synchronize a reboot of all their major books - Thor, Hulk, Captain America, Avengers etc all prior or around the time Iron Man MCU results were in and start a new legacy numbering with it. 

Edited February 15, 2017 by natevegas

[Mercury Man]

On 2/15/2017 at 2:35 PM, natevegas said:

+1 For a company this successful they sure are not lining up their current movies with the current lineup at all.  You would think both would be in balance.  I think Marvel missed a opportunity to synchronize a reboot of all their major books - Thor, Hulk, Captain America, Avengers etc all prior or around the time Iron Man MCU results were in and start a new legacy numbering with it. 

Exactly.  From a character driven standpoint, their Comic Book Universe is a mess, compared to their movies.  You will not get new readers by confusing them right off the bat.   

I understand demographics, and I understand the readership is slowly changing.  I think the stat is more women are reading comics/graphic novels than men (someone correct me if I am wrong).  But guess what, there is nothing written that says they don't want Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Clint Barton etc etc.  As for female and minority characters-  CREATE MORE OR FURTHER DEVELOP THE GREAT ONES YOU HAVE !! 

[aerischan]

5 hours ago, Mercury Man said:

Exactly.  From a character driven standpoint, their Comic Book Universe is a mess, compared to their movies.  You will not get new readers by confusing them right off the bat.   

I understand demographics, and I understand the readership is slowly changing.  I think the stat is more women are reading comics/graphic novels than men (someone correct me if I am wrong).  But guess what, there is nothing written that says they don't want Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Clint Barton etc etc.  As for female and minority characters-  CREATE MORE OR FURTHER DEVELOP THE GREAT ONES YOU HAVE !! 

Some interesting stats from one retailer:

http://www.fantomcomics.com/blog/2017/02/13/2016-review-comic-book-shop-talks-comic-book-sales-trends/

While I do think Marvel would benefit from synchronicity, comic shops would be remiss if they don't recommend Marvel's excellent backlist to newcomers either via back issue floppies or collected editions. Collected editions such as TPBs and HCs would probably work best on a newbie. They're familiar with the book format and it's generally far easier to read one omnibus TPB than 20 or so individual floppies that are bagged and boarded.

I began reading Marvel starting from the Death of Captain America arc, Black Widow (2010) and Winter Soldier (2012) via Marvel Unlimited. Coming from the movies, those series felt familiar and just enhanced/fleshed out characters I was introduced to on the big screen.

The staff at my LCS was polite and nice enough. However, on my first visit, they were pretty busy talking Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh! with regulars. If that had been my first entry into superhero comics instead of Marvel Unlimited, I probably would've ended up buying Civil War II and 1) the LCS would've lost me as a customer, and 2) likely never bought another superhero comic ever again. Instead, I had gone there knowing exactly what specific comics I wanted to buy thanks to Tumblr recommendations and knowing which creators I liked from Marvel Unlimited. Pretty much all I needed to do was grab the issues I wanted off the rack and pay for my purchase. I even have a file with them now.

Edited February 17, 2017 by aerischan

[fmaz]

You know, one way you can see the corporate hand in Marvel now... which I think gets to the heart of the issue, is the way the books, storylines, teams and crossovers no longer feel organic, but feel incredibly formulaic.

Look at all these Avengers teams and books. Back in the day (and I'm not talking about Silver, or even Bronze age... just go back to the Copper Age)... the Avengers were a TEAM. When the membership changed it changed for a reason. People left, people joined.  They sought new membership, etc... and there was downtime, personal interaction between characters so that all of that was interesting and made sense.  The kind of stuff that, if you're interested in reading today? Pick up a Justice League book.

Now? On any given week there's a new Avengers #1 book.  The team will be different.  They're just in the middle of fight somewhere, with a new group, and they go from fight to fight, until that title is canceled and a new team is thrown together by some corporate entity somewhere. 

And people wonder why no one at Marvel could make Fantastic Four work any more.  A book about family and interpersonal relationships?

There's a lot of work to be done... but it has to start to going to back and reclaiming the ground Marvel was best at... making the books about the characters.

[Lonzilla]

59 minutes ago, fmaz said:

You know, one way you can see the corporate hand in Marvel now... which I think gets to the heart of the issue, is the way the books, storylines, teams and crossovers no longer feel organic, but feel incredibly formulaic.

Look at all these Avengers teams and books. Back in the day (and I'm not talking about Silver, or even Bronze age... just go back to the Copper Age)... the Avengers were a TEAM. When the membership changed it changed for a reason. People left, people joined.  They sought new membership, etc... and there was downtime, personal interaction between characters so that all of that was interesting and made sense.  The kind of stuff that, if you're interested in reading today? Pick up a Justice League book.

Now? On any given week there's a new Avengers #1 book.  The team will be different.  They're just in the middle of fight somewhere, with a new group, and they go from fight to fight, until that title is canceled and a new team is thrown together by some corporate entity somewhere. 

And people wonder why no one at Marvel could make Fantastic Four work any more.  A book about family and interpersonal relationships?

There's a lot of work to be done... but it has to start to going to back and reclaiming the ground Marvel was best at... making the books about the characters.

Tom King probably could've done a great FF series. The Vision was only a taste of what he could do, a brilliant taste at that

[SquareChaos]

5 hours ago, Lonzilla1 said:

Tom King probably could've done a great FF series. The Vision was only a taste of what he could do, a brilliant taste at that

As long as it doesn't keep him away from Sheriff of Bablyon I'm OK with it. If it does... he's wasting his time on lesser projects, let alone the dumpster fire that is the MCU.