General discussion thread - keep the other threads clean 29 29

[1Cool]

LINK

 

Can I use Venmo to pay someone for goods or services?

No. Venmo is designed for payments between friends and people who know and trust one another.

 

Just take a look at that mess. "No," period. Then, the second sentence follows....it's as if "they" cannot comprehend the situation where I might buy a physical object from a non-business/non-merchant personal friend OR individual that I know and trust. Literally taken, that two-sentence combination there precludes that possibility. My conclusion is that they must be defining "goods or services" to mean objects or services purchased from businesses/merchants. Right?

 

If so, that might bear some relevance to yesterday's discussion, given that PayPal owns the company that joined those two sentences together.

 

 

I agree completely. IMO this is the relevant distinction, and while not perfect, it is broadly conform to the reality of private versus public transactions. It does not solve all the issues though.

 

If you act and transact like a business, meaning systematically and with regularity, you are a merchant, if you act and transact only occasionally, fitfully, circumstantially, like a private individual would, you are not a merchant. Each transaction on its own proves nothing, and thus Paypal/Venmo is only being truthful in having an ambiguous definition, as a pattern of behaviour is the only measure possible.

 

I agree that it is possible to argue that "personal" paypal can comprehend purchases of good and services from private individuals but that would only be on the assumption that there was no pattern of behaviour suggesting that it is in fact evidence of an ongoing business.

 

RMAs argument has been consistent that the issue is not a single transaction, but a pattern of behaviour. So if you are essentially running a business you cannot say "hey, but each individual transaction was to somebody I know personally as a friend" because if it is regular and constant you are acting like a merchant, whether they are really your friends or not.

 

So if you are buying and selling regularly here on the Boards you are acting like a merchant and all transactions are public and not "personal" paypal. If your purchases or sales are genuinely fitful, occasional, circumstantial (charity, hard times, sudden car repairs etc) than I believe Paypal has allowed for this reality in their policy. They will, up to a point, give you the benefit of the doubt, unless or until a pattern of behaviour shows otherwise.

 

I'm sorry this discussion became so dramatic as there are interesting parallels between how governments handle these issues in private tax declarations/audits and how Paypal approaches regular versus personal payments.

 

If occasionally Joe sells his best friend John a stack of used trades because they are fanboy readers, it is highly unlikely the government will care enough to pursue Joe for the 5% GST normally collected on all retail sales. If however over time Joe's finances show larger and larger purchases of inventory that are then resold for larger and larger incomes, they will sooner or later pursue him if it is undeclared. Above a certain amount, I think its 35k?, he would also have to pay the government the GST he would be expected to have collected.

 

Its all thresholds of patterns of behaviour, and another reason it is hard to make damning judgments of singular acts, at least in this context.

 

 

 

 

 

Good catch, Ed. I was perusing Venmo's site and terms yesterday, but I didn't see that one.

 

Yes, Crassus, this is a good summation of the issue. Though, personally, I would suggest that one ought to pay for a service ANY time one uses it, Paypal has allowed for the occasional and infrequent transaction between friends to be a "pass."

 

It's like yard sales. Several municipalties have rules regarding the frequency of these sales, and most of the time, governmental tax agencies don't bother with the occasional sale.

 

But....if you're having a yard sale every other weekend, then you're going to be having a problem. Same here.

 

The problem then comes down to "what is the line between frequent and infrequent"? As I said, that line is ethically solved by treating every purchase as a purchase, but aside from that, it is really up to Paypal to determine what is acceptable and what is not...not the individuals using Paypal. Paypal graciously allows exceptions to their rules, but they are exceptions to their rules, not "workarounds" for people who don't want to pay just because they don't have to.

 

In other words: If Paypal gives someone the right to use a Personal payment for a purchase, whether it's one time, or every time, that is not stealing, because it's Paypal's right to give or deny that ability to users of their service.

 

If someone takes that "right", on their own, without asking Paypal's permission...that is stealing, even if it is a single act, and even if Paypal forgives them after the fact. It's not their right to decide on their own what Paypal will and should allow. It's all about motive and intent.

 

And we're back to the coke from the store owner again.

 

And...frankly...if a buyer was actually friends with, and cared about, his or her selling friend, they wouldn't put his/her Paypal account at risk of losing the ability to do Personal transactions by sending them Personal payments for purchases at all. As mentioned before, there are people here who have lost that ability, and it makes it very hard to pay them back for Artist fees, or grading fees, or any of the other "pass through" fees that Personal was intended for. They complain about the fee, but if they hadn't been chowderheads to begin with, they wouldn't have lost the ability.

 

Very, very good discussion, gentlemen. If everyone kept a level head, a lot of serious issues like this could be hammered out, without the need for any drama. A boy can dream, right...?

 

Please explain why these "pass through" outlays which are out-of-pocket business expenses associated with someone (your friend) doing business and getting paid for doing it......is considered by you to be the same as paying back someone for lunch and not subject to fees?

 

 

Artist charges $10 per sig. I get 20 books signed. Artist charges $200. Facilitator pays that $200.

 

That $200 is paid back by me to the Facilitator via Paypal personal, and has nothing to do with the charge the Facilitator may charge me for their service. The facilitator didn't make any money on that aspect of the situation. They simply paid the artist on my behalf.

 

That's one of the things Paypal personal is for, specifically, as defined.

 

Another example: I pay a plumber to fix the toilet on family property, as the caretaker. My family member pays me back via Paypal personal. Again, I'm not selling the toilet, nor the service. I'm only "facilitating" the actual transaction between my family member and the plumber.

 

No popcorn necessary.

 

 

 

Seems there's a business opportunity in there somewhere....being a professional middleman.

 

I could run around paying for stuff on behalf of people...and when they reimburse me they can pay by paypal personal and maybe add in extra for my time and travel expenses. Complete Fee AVOIDANCE!!!

 

Oh ....would that mean I was providing a service? Cripes!!! I think my new get rich slow scheme has hit a pothole!

 

Would your fee be 2.9%? We should call you mini Paypal.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Please explain why these "pass through" outlays which are out-of-pocket business expenses associated with someone (your friend) doing business and getting paid for doing it......is considered by you to be the same as paying back someone for lunch and not subject to fees?

 

 

Artist charges $10 per sig. I get 20 books signed. Artist charges $200. Facilitator pays that $200.

 

That $200 is paid back by me to the Facilitator via Paypal personal, and has nothing to do with the charge the Facilitator may charge me for their service. The facilitator didn't make any money on that aspect of the situation. They simply paid the artist on my behalf.

 

That's one of the things Paypal personal is for, specifically, as defined.

 

Another example: I pay a plumber to fix the toilet on family property, as the caretaker. My family member pays me back via Paypal personal. Again, I'm not selling the toilet, nor the service. I'm only "facilitating" the actual transaction between my family member and the plumber.

 

No popcorn necessary.

 

 

 

Seems there's a business opportunity in there somewhere....being a professional middleman.

 

I could run around paying for stuff on behalf of people...and when they reimburse me they can pay by paypal personal and maybe add in extra for my time and travel expenses. Complete Fee AVOIDANCE!!!

 

Oh ....would that mean I was providing a service? Cripes!!! I think my new get rich slow scheme has hit a pothole!

 

I can't tell whether you're being serious or sarcastic or both.

 

 

The separate fee that the facilitator charges for handing that $200 to the artist IS a SERVICE, and should be paid as a good/service.

 

Obviously, they don't get to "add in some for their time and travel expenses" to a personal payment.

 

When I do work on someone's books, and they ask me to send the books to CGC on their behalf under my account, I ask for TWO payments: one for the CGC charges, which is a PERSONAL payment...and the other for MY services, which is a GOOD/SERVICE payment, for which I pay the fee.

[comix4fun]

LINK

 

Can I use Venmo to pay someone for goods or services?

No. Venmo is designed for payments between friends and people who know and trust one another.

 

Just take a look at that mess. "No," period. Then, the second sentence follows....it's as if "they" cannot comprehend the situation where I might buy a physical object from a non-business/non-merchant personal friend OR individual that I know and trust. Literally taken, that two-sentence combination there precludes that possibility. My conclusion is that they must be defining "goods or services" to mean objects or services purchased from businesses/merchants. Right?

 

If so, that might bear some relevance to yesterday's discussion, given that PayPal owns the company that joined those two sentences together.

 

 

I agree completely. IMO this is the relevant distinction, and while not perfect, it is broadly conform to the reality of private versus public transactions. It does not solve all the issues though.

 

If you act and transact like a business, meaning systematically and with regularity, you are a merchant, if you act and transact only occasionally, fitfully, circumstantially, like a private individual would, you are not a merchant. Each transaction on its own proves nothing, and thus Paypal/Venmo is only being truthful in having an ambiguous definition, as a pattern of behaviour is the only measure possible.

 

I agree that it is possible to argue that "personal" paypal can comprehend purchases of good and services from private individuals but that would only be on the assumption that there was no pattern of behaviour suggesting that it is in fact evidence of an ongoing business.

 

RMAs argument has been consistent that the issue is not a single transaction, but a pattern of behaviour. So if you are essentially running a business you cannot say "hey, but each individual transaction was to somebody I know personally as a friend" because if it is regular and constant you are acting like a merchant, whether they are really your friends or not.

 

So if you are buying and selling regularly here on the Boards you are acting like a merchant and all transactions are public and not "personal" paypal. If your purchases or sales are genuinely fitful, occasional, circumstantial (charity, hard times, sudden car repairs etc) than I believe Paypal has allowed for this reality in their policy. They will, up to a point, give you the benefit of the doubt, unless or until a pattern of behaviour shows otherwise.

 

I'm sorry this discussion became so dramatic as there are interesting parallels between how governments handle these issues in private tax declarations/audits and how Paypal approaches regular versus personal payments.

 

If occasionally Joe sells his best friend John a stack of used trades because they are fanboy readers, it is highly unlikely the government will care enough to pursue Joe for the 5% GST normally collected on all retail sales. If however over time Joe's finances show larger and larger purchases of inventory that are then resold for larger and larger incomes, they will sooner or later pursue him if it is undeclared. Above a certain amount, I think its 35k?, he would also have to pay the government the GST he would be expected to have collected.

 

Its all thresholds of patterns of behaviour, and another reason it is hard to make damning judgments of singular acts, at least in this context.

 

 

 

 

 

Good catch, Ed. I was perusing Venmo's site and terms yesterday, but I didn't see that one.

 

Yes, Crassus, this is a good summation of the issue. Though, personally, I would suggest that one ought to pay for a service ANY time one uses it, Paypal has allowed for the occasional and infrequent transaction between friends to be a "pass."

 

It's like yard sales. Several municipalties have rules regarding the frequency of these sales, and most of the time, governmental tax agencies don't bother with the occasional sale.

 

But....if you're having a yard sale every other weekend, then you're going to be having a problem. Same here.

 

The problem then comes down to "what is the line between frequent and infrequent"? As I said, that line is ethically solved by treating every purchase as a purchase, but aside from that, it is really up to Paypal to determine what is acceptable and what is not...not the individuals using Paypal. Paypal graciously allows exceptions to their rules, but they are exceptions to their rules, not "workarounds" for people who don't want to pay just because they don't have to.

 

In other words: If Paypal gives someone the right to use a Personal payment for a purchase, whether it's one time, or every time, that is not stealing, because it's Paypal's right to give or deny that ability to users of their service.

 

If someone takes that "right", on their own, without asking Paypal's permission...that is stealing, even if it is a single act, and even if Paypal forgives them after the fact. It's not their right to decide on their own what Paypal will and should allow. It's all about motive and intent.

 

And we're back to the coke from the store owner again.

 

And...frankly...if a buyer was actually friends with, and cared about, his or her selling friend, they wouldn't put his/her Paypal account at risk of losing the ability to do Personal transactions by sending them Personal payments for purchases at all. As mentioned before, there are people here who have lost that ability, and it makes it very hard to pay them back for Artist fees, or grading fees, or any of the other "pass through" fees that Personal was intended for. They complain about the fee, but if they hadn't been chowderheads to begin with, they wouldn't have lost the ability.

 

Very, very good discussion, gentlemen. If everyone kept a level head, a lot of serious issues like this could be hammered out, without the need for any drama. A boy can dream, right...?

 

Please explain why these "pass through" outlays which are out-of-pocket business expenses associated with someone (your friend) doing business and getting paid for doing it......is considered by you to be the same as paying back someone for lunch and not subject to fees?

 

 

Artist charges $10 per sig. I get 20 books signed. Artist charges $200. Facilitator pays that $200.

 

That $200 is paid back by me to the Facilitator via Paypal personal, and has nothing to do with the charge the Facilitator may charge me for their service. The facilitator didn't make any money on that aspect of the situation. They simply paid the artist on my behalf.

 

That's one of the things Paypal personal is for, specifically, as defined.

 

Another example: I pay a plumber to fix the toilet on family property, as the caretaker. My family member pays me back via Paypal personal. Again, I'm not selling the toilet, nor the service. I'm only "facilitating" the actual transaction between my family member and the plumber.

 

No popcorn necessary.

 

 

 

Seems there's a business opportunity in there somewhere....being a professional middleman.

 

I could run around paying for stuff on behalf of people...and when they reimburse me they can pay by paypal personal and maybe add in extra for my time and travel expenses. Complete Fee AVOIDANCE!!!

 

Oh ....would that mean I was providing a service? Cripes!!! I think my new get rich slow scheme has hit a pothole!

 

Would your fee be 2.9%? We should call you mini Paypal.

 

 

Yes...I'll charge 2.9%....but paypal wouldn't be able to pull a fee from the reimbursed amount. They could pull their 2.9% out of my 2.9% (since that's the amount of actual income) but then that would only be 2.9% of 2.9% leaving me 97.1% of the 2.9% and I will be well on my way to global domination.

[comix4fun]

Please explain why these "pass through" outlays which are out-of-pocket business expenses associated with someone (your friend) doing business and getting paid for doing it......is considered by you to be the same as paying back someone for lunch and not subject to fees?

 

 

Artist charges $10 per sig. I get 20 books signed. Artist charges $200. Facilitator pays that $200.

 

That $200 is paid back by me to the Facilitator via Paypal personal, and has nothing to do with the charge the Facilitator may charge me for their service. The facilitator didn't make any money on that aspect of the situation. They simply paid the artist on my behalf.

 

That's one of the things Paypal personal is for, specifically, as defined.

 

Another example: I pay a plumber to fix the toilet on family property, as the caretaker. My family member pays me back via Paypal personal. Again, I'm not selling the toilet, nor the service. I'm only "facilitating" the actual transaction between my family member and the plumber.

 

No popcorn necessary.

 

 

 

Seems there's a business opportunity in there somewhere....being a professional middleman.

 

I could run around paying for stuff on behalf of people...and when they reimburse me they can pay by paypal personal and maybe add in extra for my time and travel expenses. Complete Fee AVOIDANCE!!!

 

Oh ....would that mean I was providing a service? Cripes!!! I think my new get rich slow scheme has hit a pothole!

 

I can't tell whether you're being serious or sarcastic or both.

 

 

The separate fee that the facilitator charges for handing that $200 to the artist IS a SERVICE, and should be paid as a good/service.

 

Obviously, they don't get to "add in some for their time and travel expenses" to a personal payment.

 

When I do work on someone's books, and they ask me to send the books to CGC on their behalf under my account, I ask for TWO payments: one for the CGC charges, which is a PERSONAL payment...and the other for MY services, which is a GOOD/SERVICE payment, for which I pay the fee.

 

 

There's no chance you thought I was serious. None.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Please explain why these "pass through" outlays which are out-of-pocket business expenses associated with someone (your friend) doing business and getting paid for doing it......is considered by you to be the same as paying back someone for lunch and not subject to fees?

 

 

Artist charges $10 per sig. I get 20 books signed. Artist charges $200. Facilitator pays that $200.

 

That $200 is paid back by me to the Facilitator via Paypal personal, and has nothing to do with the charge the Facilitator may charge me for their service. The facilitator didn't make any money on that aspect of the situation. They simply paid the artist on my behalf.

 

That's one of the things Paypal personal is for, specifically, as defined.

 

Another example: I pay a plumber to fix the toilet on family property, as the caretaker. My family member pays me back via Paypal personal. Again, I'm not selling the toilet, nor the service. I'm only "facilitating" the actual transaction between my family member and the plumber.

 

No popcorn necessary.

 

 

 

Seems there's a business opportunity in there somewhere....being a professional middleman.

 

I could run around paying for stuff on behalf of people...and when they reimburse me they can pay by paypal personal and maybe add in extra for my time and travel expenses. Complete Fee AVOIDANCE!!!

 

Oh ....would that mean I was providing a service? Cripes!!! I think my new get rich slow scheme has hit a pothole!

 

I can't tell whether you're being serious or sarcastic or both.

 

 

The separate fee that the facilitator charges for handing that $200 to the artist IS a SERVICE, and should be paid as a good/service.

 

Obviously, they don't get to "add in some for their time and travel expenses" to a personal payment.

 

When I do work on someone's books, and they ask me to send the books to CGC on their behalf under my account, I ask for TWO payments: one for the CGC charges, which is a PERSONAL payment...and the other for MY services, which is a GOOD/SERVICE payment, for which I pay the fee.

 

 

There's no chance you thought I was serious. None.

 

There's a 2.9% chance I thought you were.

 

 

(I meant about whether you were tweaking me, or agreeing with me. )

[comix4fun]

Please explain why these "pass through" outlays which are out-of-pocket business expenses associated with someone (your friend) doing business and getting paid for doing it......is considered by you to be the same as paying back someone for lunch and not subject to fees?

 

 

Artist charges $10 per sig. I get 20 books signed. Artist charges $200. Facilitator pays that $200.

 

That $200 is paid back by me to the Facilitator via Paypal personal, and has nothing to do with the charge the Facilitator may charge me for their service. The facilitator didn't make any money on that aspect of the situation. They simply paid the artist on my behalf.

 

That's one of the things Paypal personal is for, specifically, as defined.

 

Another example: I pay a plumber to fix the toilet on family property, as the caretaker. My family member pays me back via Paypal personal. Again, I'm not selling the toilet, nor the service. I'm only "facilitating" the actual transaction between my family member and the plumber.

 

No popcorn necessary.

 

 

 

Seems there's a business opportunity in there somewhere....being a professional middleman.

 

I could run around paying for stuff on behalf of people...and when they reimburse me they can pay by paypal personal and maybe add in extra for my time and travel expenses. Complete Fee AVOIDANCE!!!

 

Oh ....would that mean I was providing a service? Cripes!!! I think my new get rich slow scheme has hit a pothole!

 

I can't tell whether you're being serious or sarcastic or both.

 

 

The separate fee that the facilitator charges for handing that $200 to the artist IS a SERVICE, and should be paid as a good/service.

 

Obviously, they don't get to "add in some for their time and travel expenses" to a personal payment.

 

When I do work on someone's books, and they ask me to send the books to CGC on their behalf under my account, I ask for TWO payments: one for the CGC charges, which is a PERSONAL payment...and the other for MY services, which is a GOOD/SERVICE payment, for which I pay the fee.

 

 

There's no chance you thought I was serious. None.

 

There's a 2.9% chance I thought you were.

 

 

(I meant about whether you were tweaking me, or agreeing with me. )

 

 

I really only disagree about travel expenses not qualifying for reimbursement via personal.

 

I've handled books at shows for which people could not attend. They covered parking and a ticket to the show and anything else I needed to complete the task and would not have otherwise bought for myself (sharpies, post its, spa treatments for celebs who don't want to sign books).

 

 

[jaybuck43]

So wait.... According to your scenario RMA, all I need is an intermediary to buy goods and I can use paypal personal for those goods. So going forward I buy a book from Junkdrawer (Who I think lives near Harvey in Massachusetts) and negotiate a cash price. Harvey drives over and pays Chris the cash for the transaction and I pay Harvey back the cash via Paypal personal. Fee free!

[N/A]

[comix4fun]

So wait.... According to your scenario RMA, all I need is an intermediary to buy goods and I can use paypal personal for those goods. So going forward I buy a book from Junkdrawer (Who I think lives near Harvey in Massachusetts) and negotiate a cash price. Harvey drives over and pays Chris the cash for the transaction and I pay Harvey back the cash via Paypal personal. Fee free!

 

 

Seems less convenient than paying the 2.9%, but that seems the logical chain of events.

[Buzzetta]

Which one do you want?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Vintage Long Cat... he's so long.

 

[comix4fun]

 

 

How I feel after opening this thread and everyone's still dancing around paypal personal.

 

 

 

[revat]

So wait.... According to your scenario RMA, all I need is an intermediary to buy goods and I can use paypal personal for those goods. So going forward I buy a book from Junkdrawer (Who I think lives near Harvey in Massachusetts) and negotiate a cash price. Harvey drives over and pays Chris the cash for the transaction and I pay Harvey back the cash via Paypal personal. Fee free!

 

 

Seems less convenient than paying the 2.9%, but that seems the logical chain of events.

 

yes. the point of the rule is that the person getting 'revenue' from receiving a paypal payment should pay a fee. If you are not that person, you should not pay a fee. "But what if I always PPP money to my buddy to buy this other thing in cash, which is then mailed to me?" Well if it happens a lot, PP might shut down his or your ability to do PPP.

[Buzzetta]

 

 

How I feel after opening this thread and everyone's still dancing around paypal personal.

 

 

 

 

How do you think I feel? I was gone a whole day.

 

"Some" people are relentless though it seems. Sad though, as I used to hold them in a higher regard.

[comix4fun]

 

 

How I feel after opening this thread and everyone's still dancing around paypal personal.

 

 

 

 

How do you think I feel? I was gone a whole day.

 

"Some" people are relentless though it seems. Sad though, as I used to hold them in a higher regard.

 

 

 

 

 

Pretty much all around.

 

[porcupine48]

So what happened in coppers heating up?it was getting nasty last night,i passed out now everything is poof...

[RockMyAmadeus]

So wait.... According to your scenario RMA, all I need is an intermediary to buy goods and I can use paypal personal for those goods. So going forward I buy a book from Junkdrawer (Who I think lives near Harvey in Massachusetts) and negotiate a cash price. Harvey drives over and pays Chris the cash for the transaction and I pay Harvey back the cash via Paypal personal. Fee free!

 

Yup.

 

That's how it works.

 

Of course, you'd be stepping over dollars to pick up dimes, but hey....whatever works for you.

 

So....how much are you going to pay Swick for his time and effort, and how will you pay him...?

 

[jsilverjanet]

Which one do you want?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Vintage Long Cat... he's so long.

 

 

 

As a dog lover I am offended by the number of long cats in this post

 

Mods notified

[comicdonna]

So wait.... According to your scenario RMA, all I need is an intermediary to buy goods and I can use paypal personal for those goods. So going forward I buy a book from Junkdrawer (Who I think lives near Harvey in Massachusetts) and negotiate a cash price. Harvey drives over and pays Chris the cash for the transaction and I pay Harvey back the cash via Paypal personal. Fee free!

 

Yup.

 

That's how it works.

 

Of course, you'd be stepping over dollars to pick up dimes, but hey....whatever works for you.

 

So....how much are you going to pay Swick for his time and effort, and how will you pay him...?

 

I don't think he should get a dime until he adds my ToS 39 to the club.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

 

How I feel after opening this thread and everyone's still dancing around paypal personal.

 

 

 

 

Interestingly enough, Judgment Day anniversary is only ten days away.

 

August 29, 1997!

 

Duh duh..duh duhDUNT. Duh duh..duh duhDUNT.

[HighRadArt]

So wait.... According to your scenario RMA, all I need is an intermediary to buy goods and I can use paypal personal for those goods. So going forward I buy a book from Junkdrawer (Who I think lives near Harvey in Massachusetts) and negotiate a cash price. Harvey drives over and pays Chris the cash for the transaction and I pay Harvey back the cash via Paypal personal. Fee free!

 

Yup.

 

That's how it works.

 

Of course, you'd be stepping over dollars to pick up dimes, but hey....whatever works for you.

 

So....how much are you going to pay Swick for his time and effort, and how will you pay him...?

 

I don't think he should get a dime until he adds my ToS 39 to the club.

 

Maybe he's still shocked you actually bought a book in the sales thread.