When do books go from being Bronze age to being modern?

[jbud73]

That's why, like I said, we're certainly open to revisiting the topic and fine-tuning as more discussion about it builds in the community.

 

Just for clarification, I'm 33. And I spoke with people all up and down the age range and my strongest regular comic book buying took place between the mid-70s when I was but a wee lad in single digits to the late '80s, so I'm well acquainted with the era.

 

Like I said in the original, I just think the transition period from Bronze to Copper is Waaaay to long. Its definitely glaring when you consider the GA - AA, AA - SA, and SA - BA. Wolverine Mini, SOTST 21, New Teen Titans 1 and alot of the early Independent stuff is just not Bronze. People ask about Cerebus, well Cerebus is a parody of a BA character, so I have no problem accepting it as starting in the BA.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Understood. I'm all for continuing to discuss it. It would be nice to get back to this in a couple years and address some of these dissenting opinions and perhaps adjust things to reflect more refined thinking. You gotta start somewhere!

[jbud73]

Understood. I'm all for continuing to discuss it. It would be nice to get back to this in a couple years and address some of these dissenting opinions and perhaps adjust things to reflect more refined thinking. You gotta start somewhere!

 

My worry is that entrenchment and the move from tacit acceptance to compliance will occur in the hobby. These things have a way of worming their way into the mythos based on erroneous first impressions and power of advertising. I think a perfect analogous example is the Church (Mile High) Reilly (SanFrancisco) discrepancies. What happens is that new comers aquiesce to the established ideal - if there is no opposition to that ideal, or if that Ideal is more widely publicized than the contrary opinion (an argeument I would make for the OS guide compared to an open discussion on the CGC BA forum message board) then this acceptance is likely to occur in a much more rapid fashion.

 

Arnold in trying to categorize historical trends and create an established timeline for comic history, the OS guide is attempting (whether consciously or not) to write comic book history. "With great power comes ....." you know the rest. Once you've opened Pandora's box it becomes irresponsible to revisit it in a few years. I understand the necessity for feedback, so I'll give you mine, which I think has been supported in this thread and I would think summarily uniform throughout the bulk of postings on this subject in the forum. "OS gaffed on the transition from Bronze to Copper, please revisit your criteria for has generated a result that flies steadfastly in the face of all common sense and intuitve cognition that many can fathom."

[divad]

How about Tin? Nah, too cheap-sounding, and any way it's an alloy

[october]

and any way it's an alloy

 

So is bronze.

[divad]

and any way it's an alloy

 

So is bronze.

 

How about Rubidium? Nah, nobody's ever heard of that

[october]

and any way it's an alloy

 

So is bronze.

 

How about Rubidium? Nah, nobody's ever heard of that

 

The Rubidium Age? Has a nice ring to it actually...

[tth2]

Saga of the Swamp Thing

No way is that a BA book.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Unfortunately, I've also received lots of e-mails, letters and phone calls that suggest many more readers really like the result, so we're happy leaving things where they are for right now anyway. And it's hardly irresponsible to revisit these topics over the years; quite the opposite. Look at old Guides and you'll see lots of things like Age dates have been refined over the years to reflect a growing understanding of the market, the history of the medium, and much more. This won't stop here. With time, we'll probably have reason to come back to this subject and take a look again. The community has rolled with every other shift in the way Overstreet and others look at the comic book world, I doubt it will be a problem when it's time to change our thinking again. But here, today, now, we're satisfied, and so are the majority of readers we've heard from on the subject. But rest assured, I also hear complaints, no matter how few, and yours are well noted. There are many ways of looking at this.

 

As Scott McCloud said, "here's to the debate."

[divad]

Arnold,

 

I think you guys did an excellent job with the latest guide. I hope you take my light-hearted comments in jest, as they are meant to be taken.

 

David

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Light-hearted? I just finished making a note to add the Rubidium Age to the next edition! Well, there goes *that* plan!

[Aman619]

summing up this ddiscussion, IMO theres NO WAY New Teen Titans is a Bronze book. To me, the Modern Age (the first 10 years of which will be now called Copper because Modern would be 25 years wide with out a new demarcation/Age point) includes all of the 80s. It might even have started with the advent of the Direct Market which led to the spread of Comic Book Stores. These stores fueled everything that has followed, for good and ill.

 

Mini-series was a result of publishing for the converted (weekly LCS fans)

[divad]

Light-hearted? I just finished making a note to add the Rubidium Age to the next edition! Well, there goes *that* plan!

 

[Paul_Maul]

Saga of the Swamp Thing

 

, this is about as close to being a bronze age book as X-Force #1.

 

Seriously, I can see debating about New Teen Titans 1, as it has a lot in

common with the New X-Men, but the Swamp Thing series is so clearly

the beginning of something rather than the end, I can't imagine anyone thinks

this is a Bronze Age book.

 

After this discussion I am more convinced than ever that the "copper age"

of Marvel is inextricably linked with the Jim Shooter EOC-ship. I think the

Bronze/Copper change occurred sometime 50 cent period, depending on the

title. Things like Dazzler #1 are certain harbingers of copper.

[awe4one]

Unfortunately, I've also received lots of e-mails, letters and phone calls that suggest many more readers really like the result, so we're happy leaving things where they are for right now anyway.

 

I'd really like to read some of these letters. How many more Age change lovers have written? Judging from the feedback on this Forum, and I believe it represents a rather educated cross section of collectors, the wide majority think you've screwed the pooch in regards to Bronze's length...

 

And it's hardly irresponsible to revisit these topics over the years; quite the opposite. Look at old Guides and you'll see lots of things like Age dates have been refined over the years to reflect a growing understanding of the market, the history of the medium, and much more. This won't stop here. With time, we'll probably have reason to come back to this subject and take a look again. The community has rolled with every other shift in the way Overstreet and others look at the comic book world, I doubt it will be a problem when it's time to change our thinking again.

 

I disagree. Waiting "a couple years" to address an identified mistake is an injustice to both the OS brand and, frankly, a slam on knowledgeable collectors in general. It has the appearance of letting the issue linger in the hope of catching on later as collectors move on and accept that maybe no change is forthcoming.

 

The responsible action would be to discuss the issue and fix the problem. Now. Before it has a chance to, erroneously, take hold. That's one of the problem with this hobby. We let rumors and inaccuracies take hold to the point where they become urban legends. I expect better from OS frankly...

 

But here, today, now, we're satisfied, and so are the majority of readers we've heard from on the subject. But rest assured, I also hear complaints, no matter how few, and yours are well noted.

 

So I'm reading this as..."Thanks...your opinion is noted but you can shut up now while I put my satisfied @ss back under a rock..."

 

There are many ways of looking at this.

 

I'd agree if you were referring to Ages in general. On this specific issue there isn't much room for leeway in your favor...

 

Jim

[Zonker]

After this discussion I am more convinced than ever that the "copper age"

of Marvel is inextricably linked with the Jim Shooter EOC-ship. I think the

Bronze/Copper change occurred sometime 50 cent period, depending on the

title. Things like Dazzler #1 are certain harbingers of copper.

 

That would put Copper at 1978-1987 corresponding to Shooter's tenure as EIC.

 

Come to think of it, that lines up with my pet theory that the really significant Bronze books were in the 1970-1974 period, when DC was finally waking up that Marvel was about to completely eat their lunch sales-wise. Newstand distribution was dying but not dead yet, you had all those definitive Bronze artists doing their classic work (Adams, Wrightson, Kaluta, Barry Smith) and the newer wave of creators just breaking in (Starlin, Simonson, Chaykin, Gerber, Englehart, Wolfman, Wein).

 

By 1975-1978 it was all over: Marvel had won. Most of the DC successes in this period were derivative and clearly reactions to Marvel's proven success at dominating the Direct Market: Bringing Conway and Englehart over to Marvel-ize the DC books, then the success of New Teen Titans, bringing Miller over to do Ronin then Dark Knight, putting Byrne on Superman. The only exception to that me-too strategy was Alan Moore and the British Invasion that followed and planted the seeds for the Vertigo line.

[Paul_Maul]

That would put Copper at 1978-1987 corresponding to Shooter's tenure as EIC.

 

 

Hmmm, I didn't realize Shooter had taken over as early as 1978, but I don't think

he really started throwing his weight around until 1980-ish. When did all those

Obnoxious Shooter Bullpen Columns start? It may be because I started heavily

collecting in 1980, but in my mind 1976-1979 seems to hang together pretty

well as a Marvel period, as does 1980-1984 or so.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

I can only say I hear your point of view so many times, and I'm sorry you interpret it as sloughing off what you have to say, it's not. But then the whole flaw in your thinking from our point of view is that you perceive this as a mistake that needs correcting, where most people seem to think it's a step forward that adds to our discussion of Ages and enhances the history we present in the Guide. So revisiting it after some discussion has continued in the hobby makes sense from our point of view because there's no mistake to fix here.

 

You can never present something like this that will please everyone, but you can do your best to address as many differing opinions as possible and keep the door open for future discussion. We are confident that many more people appreciate this change and have expressed so in no uncertain terms than have been disappointed by it. But as I said, just so those who don't like it don't feel shut out, we will always keep the door open to coming back to the subject when it seems warranted. It just doesn't seem warranted now. This is not telling you to shut up or go away , this is telling you to keep talking, keep expressing your opinion with other collectors, keep the discussion going. That's the best way I can explain it.

[drbanner]

After this discussion I am more convinced than ever that the "copper age"

of Marvel is inextricably linked with the Jim Shooter EOC-ship. I think the

Bronze/Copper change occurred sometime 50 cent period, depending on the

title. Things like Dazzler #1 are certain harbingers of copper.

 

That would put Copper at 1978-1987 corresponding to Shooter's tenure as EIC.

 

Come to think of it, that lines up with my pet theory that the really significant Bronze books were in the 1970-1974 period, when DC was finally waking up that Marvel was about to completely eat their lunch sales-wise. Newstand distribution was dying but not dead yet, you had all those definitive Bronze artists doing their classic work (Adams, Wrightson, Kaluta, Barry Smith) and the newer wave of creators just breaking in (Starlin, Simonson, Chaykin, Gerber, Englehart, Wolfman, Wein).

 

By 1975-1978 it was all over: Marvel had won. Most of the DC successes in this period were derivative and clearly reactions to Marvel's proven success at dominating the Direct Market: Bringing Conway and Englehart over to Marvel-ize the DC books, then the success of New Teen Titans, bringing Miller over to do Ronin then Dark Knight, putting Byrne on Superman. The only exception to that me-too strategy was Alan Moore and the British Invasion that followed and planted the seeds for the Vertigo line.

 

I'm certainly in the camp that by 1978, the Bronze Age was pretty much over. When compared to the books released between 1970 and 1975, nothing really changed in the comics scene until after 1980. I don't believe every year needs to have an "Age" associated with it anyway, and just like the Historical context of the Dark Ages, periods in comic history without any significant changes or anything new and exciting (and a pretty low quality of material) certainly don't have to be force fit into an "Age".

 

Dazzler #1 a Bronze Age book? New Teen Titans #1 a Bronze Age book? Is there a single person on these boards that thinks of these as Bronze Age books?

[THE_BEYONDER]

The Bronze Age ended in March of 1981.