buyatari Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 8 hours ago, SquareChaos said: I don't have daughters. I have a good friend who has two daughters, but I'm pretty sure their mother would find Harley too... some adjective or other of your choice... for their current age. Time will tell if she is this massive cultural phenomenon - I personally think not. I think if they made a Harley Quinn movie it has a better than even chance of flopping pretty hard, but this is all entirely speculation on my part. You are right it could very well be a flop. This is DC we are talking about, i suspect we will see her in a Batman film at some point. Less chance of that being a flop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buyatari Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, Pete Marino said: Others have though, Gene has said that directly, not going to sift through the thread to find it, but he commented about how: few outside the comic hobby know who she is, and that no one in his building would know the character (i'm paraphrasing so if i missed the gist, feel free to correct me) BA12 cover will command a huge premium if it ever went to auction, is it 125k? 250k? I have no clue, both numbers are basically the same to my mind, because they're so out of my reality for comic art. But to say it'll do worse than NYX cover i think is underselling the character in a huge way. And I feel like a lot of people here don't see how she's permeated more than just the comic book world. That was my point, unless only comic book fans go out for Halloween. If not everyone knows who she is and she is still this popular doesn't that say more about the character? She still has room to grow. So far she was just a supporting character in a superhero movie. Yet some people feel the character is far more likable than characters that have already had their own movie. One Batman movie and everyone will know who she is. They will say ohh yeah that is Jokers crazy girlfriend. Batman is DCs number 1 property. Joker is and will always be Batman's most known and popular enemy. Harley isn't going anywhere. Edited May 24, 2017 by buyatari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) 35 minutes ago, buyatari said: If not everyone knows who she is and she is still this popular doesn't that say more about the character? She still has room to grow. That would be a great point...if we lopped off a zero from the valuations being tossed around here. But, at 100-150-200-250-300-350K, that's already valuing the first Harley (which, again, isn't really the first Harley) at levels close to/equal to/more than/a f-ton more than other first appearances and other very desirable OA. Maybe one day she will become known to all future generations as the Joker's girlfriend. Still, so what? The 1st app of Joker's GF in comics (in the JV not-in-continuity for kids Batman title no less) should be worth 6 or even multiple 6 figures? Worth a stack of Byrne X-Men pages? Worth more than the first MJ page, the first Deadpool, the first Elektra, the first Walking Dead. the first TMNT, the first Swamp Thing, even McSpidey 1 (because, y'know, there are a few poll respondents who voted to value this cover in the same league or even higher than these examples)? I have a hard time believing anybody would be having this conversation before last Thursday, except as a laugh. Edited May 25, 2017 by delekkerste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NelsonAI Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 Kevin Smith named his daughter Harley Quinn Smith. Should he immediately become a potential buyer if the OA for BA 12 cover came to market? Just because everyone knows who these pop culture comic book characters are, DOES NOT mean they will rush out and buy a CGC Comic or OA. Any potential buyer will come from within the existing collecting community. No one will look up the box office movie receipts and say, I must buy the first comic appearance of Dominic Torreto, whether in comic book or OA form. Cheers! N. delekkerste 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buyatari Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 27 minutes ago, delekkerste said: That would be a great point...if we lopped off a zero from the valuations being tossed around here. But, at 100-150-200-250-300-350K, that's already valuing the first Harley (which, again, isn't really the first Harley) at levels close to/equal to/more than/a f-ton more than other first appearances and other very desirable OA. Maybe one day she will become known to all future generations as the Joker's girlfriend. Still, so what? The 1st app of Joker's GF in comics (in the JV not-in-continuity for kids Batman title no less) should be worth 6 or even multiple 6 figures? Worth a stack of Byrne X-Men pages? Worth more than the first MJ page, the first Deadpool, the first Elektra, the first Walking Dead. the first TMNT, the first Swamp Thing, even McSpidey 1 (because, y'know, there are a few poll respondents who voted to value this cover in the same league or even higher than these examples)? I have a hard time believing anybody would be having this conversation before last Thursday, except as a laugh. The only thing that I can say is that the cover art of BA12 is more than I can afford. Also that if given a choice I'd pick it over NM98 both for enjoyment and for long term investment purposes. The hammer price if sold today? I am not sure but i would think that it would have to be 6 figures. Comic art prices don't always make sense either. How many pages can you buy with Amazing Spider-Man 328 money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaSealed Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 37 minutes ago, delekkerste said: Worth a stack of Byrne X-Men pages? Worth more than the first MJ page, the first Deadpool, the first Elektra, the first Walking Dead. the first TMNT, the first Swamp Thing, even McSpidey 1 (because, y'know, there are a few poll respondents who voted to value this cover in the same league or even higher than these examples)? I have a hard time believing anybody would be having this conversation before last Thursday, except as a laugh. To be fair the question does not ask what is the value of the cover, but rather how would it do if put up at auction at heritage. I just happen to think there are probably a couple people out there who wouldn't mind bidding aggressively to own this cover. My thought process was the same with the NYX3 cover. I sure as hell don't think it's worth the $60k I guessed. Especially not to me. I just thought that was how much it would take to win it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicwiz Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) My interest in either BA 12 or NM 98 starts and ends in finding it for a buck or two at a garage sale and selling it to the first taker for as much as I can get. And there is no chance I would ever pay what either of these books are pulling in, so the suggestion OA for either should command six-figures is a foreign concept in my own four-walled world. Despite my own views, both could easily be bragging rights pieces for a consignor, auction house, and/or even a couple of bidders who feel it's something they must own. If there is any certainty in comic art it's that prices are never certain - who here thought Crumb's Fritz the Cat cover would hammer at $717K? Edited May 25, 2017 by comicwiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 7 minutes ago, buyatari said: The only thing that I can say is that the cover art of BA12 is more than I can afford. Also that if given a choice I'd pick it over NM98 both for enjoyment and for long term investment purposes. The hammer price if sold today? I am not sure but i would think that it would have to be 6 figures. Comic art prices don't always make sense either. How many pages can you buy with Amazing Spider-Man 328 money? I am not a Deadpool or a Harley fan, but, if given the choice, I'd take the NM 98 cover, hands down. I can at least appreciate that this is a real first appearance in a mainstream title by the character's creator drawn in his own style and not just the adaptation of a cartoon character by someone other than her creator for DC's out of continuity kiddie Batman title. Pass! Comic art prices don't have to make sense, of course. But, sales like ASM 328 prove nothing other than occasionally we can get freak results, not that this sets any kind of new benchmark, or that we should expect these kinds of results for every high profile piece that comes along; McSpidey 1 and ASM 121 didn't shoot to 7-figures just because ASM 328 fetched $657K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, comicwiz said: Despite my own views, both could easily be bragging rights pieces for a consignor, auction house, and/or even a couple of bidders who feel it's something they must own. If there is any certainty in comic art it's that prices are never certain - who here thought Crumb's Fritz the Cat cover would hammer at $717K? Considering 45% of respondents voted for sub-$100K, I'd say that bragging rights for this piece are a lot less than the truly established marquee pieces like GL 76, McSpidey 1, ASM 121, DKR 2, etc. that we've seen hit the auction block in recent years. It may be a trophy, but some people are making this out to be the World Cup and it just isn't. I was only a little bit surprised by Fritz the Cat. We know Jim Halperin is a big Crumb fan. We know that Crumb is represented by the second most powerful art gallery in the US (David Zwirner), with a deep pocketed clientele. We know that Europeans are mad about Crumb. It was always going to fetch multiple 6-figures. Did I think it would have a 700-handle? No, but I am certainly less surprised by $717K than I would have been by $217K. According to some who voted, that wouldn't even be enough to buy the BA 12 cover... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicwiz Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, delekkerste said: I was only a little bit surprised by Fritz the Cat. We know Jim Halperin is a big Crumb fan. We know that Crumb is represented by the second most powerful art gallery in the US (David Zwirner), with a deep pocketed clientele. We know that Europeans are mad about Crumb. It was always going to fetch multiple 6-figures. Did I think it would have a 700-handle? No, but I am certainly less surprised by $717K than I would have been by $217K. Crumb OA sells strong on a number of fronts, including some of the points you raise. But in this value threshold, almost always privately. Covers I'd hear sold privately more than 10 years ago for over $1Million, and to be fair those were works I considered more important for their place in underground comix history. Yet someone seemed to care enough about a "cartoon" character named Fritz the Cat, who got his own movie and became the first x-rated animated feature in 1972. I'd be surprised if anyone here ever saw it, or even knows about it, so the fact Fritz isn't a household name doesn't seem to matter. Under $250K would never happen with at least two buyers making sure the other wouldn't have that floor, but $717K is certainly an amazing price mark for American comic art sold at public auction. Edited May 25, 2017 by comicwiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NelsonAI Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) OT Anyone that follows the Crumb market would have known $500K for that cover was easily attainable. Dig up the Crumb documentary that came out circa 1995. Crumb traded in several of his sketchbooks for a farmhouse in France. Presumably to a French collector. That was filmed in 1994 (?). I suspect real estate prices have gone up significantly in France since then. Crumb crossed over to the fine arts market a long time ago. I would speculate that the buyer for that Crumb cover was a European collector or Halperin. Fritz the Cat is arguably, his best known property. The cartoon got it's x-rating partially because Fritz was relieving himself on people. I think South Park cartoons today are more risque. Lol. Cheers! N. Edited May 25, 2017 by NelsonAI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicwiz Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 6 minutes ago, NelsonAI said: Crumb traded in several of his sketchbooks for a farmhouse in France. Presumably to a French collector. Didier, although I'd be surprised if he ended-up with this cover. Fritz is cool, but not Crumb's best property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 36 minutes ago, comicwiz said: Didier, although I'd be surprised if he ended-up with this cover. Fritz is cool, but not Crumb's best property. Be that as it may, $700K+ for Fritz makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than $150K+ for BA12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCarter27 Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 8 hours ago, SquareChaos said: Thus far Harley has been in a bad movie. Don't forget the Batman Animated Series that left its mark on an entire generation of kids... so much so that Bruce Timm's Batman is probably the most popular rendition of the character. TMNT is very comparable to TWD, but just further down the same path with a few revitalizations under its belt. Since Nickelodeon bought out TMNT, that will prop it up for a very long time as well. 6 hours ago, delekkerste said: Even if the comic and TV show go away tomorrow, that book is never not going to be the most important book of the era, not only because it launched a true cultural phenomenon, but it also helped usher in the current wave of awesome creator owned properties. Many of which are published by Image because, well, Walking Dead. TWD's place in comics history is well-established now, but I think the main difference between TWD and TMNT is that one is a kids property -- along with all of the merchandising that goes with that.. As such, TMNT is going to generate nostalgia (in several different generations) that TWD will simply never have. F For Fake 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buyatari Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 2 hours ago, delekkerste said: I am not a Deadpool or a Harley fan, but, if given the choice, I'd take the NM 98 cover, hands down. I can at least appreciate that this is a real first appearance in a mainstream title by the character's creator drawn in his own style and not just the adaptation of a cartoon character by someone other than her creator for DC's out of continuity kiddie Batman title. Pass! Comic art prices don't have to make sense, of course. But, sales like ASM 328 prove nothing other than occasionally we can get freak results, not that this sets any kind of new benchmark, or that we should expect these kinds of results for every high profile piece that comes along; McSpidey 1 and ASM 121 didn't shoot to 7-figures just because ASM 328 fetched $657K. ........and ASM 328 didn't sell for 20k because of what you can buy classic Kirby splash pages for. So why should Kirby splash pages affect the prices of BA12? Different people buying different items for different reasons. I can't afford to write a check for BA12 so my vote doesn't really count. However, I would like a page from Mad Love. I'd take that over a New Mutants Deadpool page any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquareChaos Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 8 minutes ago, BCarter27 said: Don't forget the Batman Animated Series that left its mark on an entire generation of kids... so much so that Bruce Timm's Batman is probably the most popular rendition of the character. That is a fair point, and it is one that I was thinking about as I wrote what I wrote, but I left my point since - as you also imply - the character is now portrayed quite differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Peck Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 NYX3 "sketch" cover went for $72K so now all the chicken littles are coming out to say the Batman Animated #12 cover will go for pie in the sky prices. These are many of the same people who after Amazing Spider-Man #328 went for $368K back 2012 said the McFarlane ASM market is super hot and AMS covers will go sky high. Which turned out to be BS. Same auction ASM (#1) went for $358K (just over 50% of #328) and ASM #317 $143K (22% of #328). 4 months later ASM #325 went for $84K (13% of #328) and #322 for $32K ASM #303 went for $78K in 2/2013 The pundits were so far off base that there crystal balls look like bowling balls. This is a similar thing, you see a single auction and then you think you know how a possible future auction will end. NYX3 and Batman Animated #12 cover have nothing in common except some people believe there is a connection. First appearances of characters are like comparing apples and oranges. As stated on the other thread, Batman Animated #12 cover is NOT the first appearance of Harley Quinn. Animated series is her first appearance and for any big fan of her that is what the collector would want. People may like the Batman Animated #12 cover for its art but I dont see it as being that historic. People may say I will pay XXX dollars for a cover but until they put up the cold hard cash. They are just blowing smoke up your........ delekkerste 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, buyatari said: ........and ASM 328 didn't sell for 20k because of what you can buy classic Kirby splash pages for. So why should Kirby splash pages affect the prices of BA12 Because the price of the former is an outlier and the value of the latter is well established. Anyone who has to resort to using the ASM 328 sale to justify or benchmark their valuation has already lost the argument. As Brian pointed out, that result has had no predictive value on any results since then - countless superior pieces have sold for less money while there hasn't been any discernible increase in similarly mind-boggling results. The market is up, of course, since 2012, but outliers remain outliers. Edited May 25, 2017 by delekkerste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicwiz Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 I don't mean to derail, but I guess I'm a little confused about Batman Adventures #12. It is the first comic book appearance of HQ no matter how you slice or dice the explanations as to why. I'm not sure what her appearance in an animated cartoon have to do with the determination of whether it's a first appearance. This whole conversation seems a bit off, because Marvel's Star Wars #1 was created only after Marvel's brass were invited for a private screening of the film, and as far as I know that was a final edit they screened. The movie's existence and the appearance of the characters adapted from screen to comic doesn't take away from the fact that the 1977 Marvel Star Wars #1 is the first appearance of Luke, Ben, Han, Leia, Vader et al. in comics. I don't need CGC's label to tell me if it is or not, but every CGC graded BA #12 I've seen says "1st appearance of Harley Quinn" on the label. Sorry, but on this talking point, the discussion is taking an unusual direction and I had to say something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhamlau Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 11 hours ago, NelsonAI said: OT Anyone that follows the Crumb market would have known $500K for that cover was easily attainable. Dig up the Crumb documentary that came out circa 1995. Crumb traded in several of his sketchbooks for a farmhouse in France. Presumably to a French collector. That was filmed in 1994 (?). I suspect real estate prices have gone up significantly in France since then. Crumb crossed over to the fine arts market a long time ago. Cheers! N. I believe also though, that the collector also got the publishing rights to them as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
