DC Copper/Modern Keys 1 1

[F For Fake]

2 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

I have a hard time thinking of Maxima's first appearance as key-worthy.

It was actually the first issue of Action Comics I bought off the newsstand because of the eye-catching Perez cover. Cool story, but as far as I'm concerned she basically peaked in Armageddon 2001.

So...she's already appeared in Smallville and Supergirl...and now her first appearance is key?

I don't see it.

 

 

These days I think everyone is buying every cheap obscure first appearance they can get their mitts on, in case they hit the movie lottery. TV can lead to a bump, but it seems like movies really turn those dials.

[Gatsby77]

46 minutes ago, F For Fake said:

These days I think everyone is buying every cheap obscure first appearance they can get their mitts on, in case they hit the movie lottery. TV can lead to a bump, but it seems like movies really turn those dials.

Yeah - and I hate it.

The market has shifted such that the only "keys" folks care about are first appearances that may get movie and/or TV bumps.

And it's even come full circle with multiple movie appearances (Venom prior to Spider-Man 3 and again now with the Venom film; Punisher with the 2004 movie and again with Daredevil Season 2 and the forthcoming Netflix show; Dark Phoenix issues with Last Stand and now with X-Men 7).

I look forward to the comic book movie trend finally bursting.

(Not saying I haven't bought 22 copies of Thor 337 on the theory that Beta Ray Bill will show up in Guardians 3, but whatever...)

[FineCollector]

43 minutes ago, ExNihilo said:

Key is definitely subjective and I'll agree that books can be subdivided as major/minor keys.  For the purposes of the original post, I was looking for major keys.  To that end, I think value plays a role into what the majority consider "key" (hereby referring to major keys).  To that extent, if demand surpasses supply to the point that the value of a book is increased to a point that is no longer reasonable to a large number of readers, then the book is most certainly key.  (Additional rule: the contents of a book should be noteworthy in some way, first appearance, first book by legendary creator(s), etc).

I don't think you speak for the majority.

For lack of a copper age example, let's look at silver age Aquamans.  The first appearances of Black Manta was mentioned by Overstreet, but was never broken out in price from the surrounding issues.  I have a 2012-2013 guide nearby, and even then, issue 35 cost the same as the other issues around it.  Black Manta has consistently been Aquaman's archvillain since the 1960's, and the character is widely known because of the Super Friends and Justice League cartoons.  Is it your opinion that the first appearance of Black Manta only became a key in 2014 when the movie speculators drove the prices up?

[FutureFlash]

In regard to Maxima, I only listed it as a key due to the fact she shows up frequently during the 90s run of Superman. So if you are a run collector (which I am) it is of much more significance rather than it is actual worth.  Also Action 645 is even noted in Ovserstreet as the first appearance of Maxima.

One other thing,  it is annoying to have an issue spike due to a movie/tv that the character is involved in.  

Edited August 10, 2017 by FutureFlash

[Gatsby77]

19 minutes ago, FineCollector said:

I don't think you speak for the majority.

For lack of a copper age example, let's look at silver age Aquamans.  The first appearances of Black Manta was mentioned by Overstreet, but was never broken out in price from the surrounding issues.  I have a 2012-2013 guide nearby, and even then, issue 35 cost the same as the other issues around it.  Black Manta has consistently been Aquaman's archvillain since the 1960's, and the character is widely known because of the Super Friends and Justice League cartoons.  Is it your opinion that the first appearance of Black Manta only became a key in 2014 when the movie speculators drove the prices up?

Exactly.

Here's another example - who is the Punisher's archvillain?

I actually don't know.

I figure some people will say Kingpin, others will pull from Garth Ennis's various runs on the character. But for me (who grew up reading Punisher in the early '90s, l there's no contest -- it's Jigsaw). Quick - what's his first appearance?

That's right - nobody cares. But it's ASM # 162, a book broken out for the early Punisher & Nightcrawler appearance but not for being Jigsaw's first appearance.

Definitely key.

Not valuable.

But definitely key.

[ExNihilo]

2 hours ago, FineCollector said:

I don't think you speak for the majority.

For lack of a copper age example, let's look at silver age Aquamans.  The first appearances of Black Manta was mentioned by Overstreet, but was never broken out in price from the surrounding issues.  I have a 2012-2013 guide nearby, and even then, issue 35 cost the same as the other issues around it.  Black Manta has consistently been Aquaman's archvillain since the 1960's, and the character is widely known because of the Super Friends and Justice League cartoons.  Is it your opinion that the first appearance of Black Manta only became a key in 2014 when the movie speculators drove the prices up?

From a pure character history perspective, value is irrelevant, and thus the book can be perceived as a key book on the merit of it being a first appearance (or a death, or a wedding, or a kiss, or some other major event).  The problem I have with this is that as character histories continue to grow, so too do key appearances/events.  Black Manta and Jigsaw are big time villains so their inclusion makes sense.  But what happens when you get to characters like Scream (Venom: Lethal Protector #4)?  Or how about books where a character dies?  How about when they die a second or third time?

At a certain point, key loses its meaning.  As a casual collector, I feel I have to limit what I perceive as key to merely books that I wish I had in my collection because cost is a limiting factor.  I guess to answer your question, Black Manta (and Jigsaw's) first appearances were key prior to any surge in value on the basis of their historical relevance to their respective protagonists.  But for myself at least, they don't make the cut for what I believe to be key to any collection.

(EDIT: I should add that I realize now that a lot of boardies here are big time collectors and can understand how my personal definition of key can be very different from the majority of people here.)

Edited August 10, 2017 by ExNihilo

[waaaghboss]

On 8/10/2017 at 11:10 AM, Gatsby77 said:

Yeah - and I hate it.

The market has shifted such that the only "keys" folks care about are first appearances that may get movie and/or TV bumps.

And it's even come full circle with multiple movie appearances (Venom prior to Spider-Man 3 and again now with the Venom film; Punisher with the 2004 movie and again with Daredevil Season 2 and the forthcoming Netflix show; Dark Phoenix issues with Last Stand and now with X-Men 7).

I look forward to the comic book movie trend finally bursting.

(Not saying I haven't bought 22 copies of Thor 337 on the theory that Beta Ray Bill will show up in Guardians 3, but whatever...)

I remember way back in the day, key issues were first appearances, and origin stories.  Does anyone care about origins anymore?  

[Skylath]

1 hour ago, waaaghboss said:

I remember way back in the day, key issues were first appearances, and origin stories.  Does anyone care about origins anymore?  

Creativity is a rather dead medium these days, which is why we're getting superhero movies in the first place. I'm kind of surprised Image doesn't have more comic books pumping out superheroes though, since that's kind of what it's foundations were built on.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Skylath