Batman #1 CGC 9.2 slight(p) on eBay...

[FFB]

Actually, my concern that the book might have been pressed did not enter the picture until very late in the game. I asked the seller at the outset of the auction whether the book had been pressed, and the response was no. I took him at his word. At the time I placed the initial over reserve bid I was still not concerned about (nor suspected) the fact that perhaps the book was pressed, particularly since it was already restored.

 

However, after having further discussions with Filter, the seller and other knowledgable collectors, I started to become suspicious about the integrity of the auction and hold bad feelings towards the transaction. Of course, had I remained the high bidder I would have honored the bid and taken possession of the book. But I was happy to see that I was outbid. As I stated, I was having conversations with the seller up to literally the last second of the auction and I was not at all comfortable with his responses. I hold absolutely no regrets.

 

But if anyone (ahem, FFB ) thinks a conspiracy was underfoot and I used this auction to make a point about pressing, let me think how to politically say this - YOU ARE NUTS!!!!! If the book had been $65, maybe, just maybe, I would have even thought about doing something like that. But for $65k, I don't think so.

 

Whatever the reasons, I think you were fortunate not to wind up winning that book. There is too much that is fishy about that seller, regardless of whether the book is pressed or not. I was just surprised you put up the monster bid you did in the first place. On the other hand, I have little doubt you would not have wound up with the short end of the stick even if you had to pursue the seller to the ends of the Earth to get your money back. If I am the seller, you're about the last guy in the world who I'd want to cheat on a comic sale.

 

Let me state one thing about why pressing, to me, however is relevant to the purchase of this book. There are still a good number of mid-grade Batman #1s out there, books that are in the 6.5 - 7.5 range. With proper pressing, and depending upon the book, some of these may end up being 8.5 - 9.2 copies - "unrestored". If that happens, the value of the restored 9.2 probably would go down, or at least the demand for it.

 

Assuming this is true (I don't think it is because of the wide difference in price between high grade restored and high grade unrestored Batman #1s, but let's assume it is true), then this is equally true whether or not the restored 9.2 is pressed.

 

Why bother buying a restored (pressed) 9.2 copy when one can buy an "unrestored" 9.0 or 9.2 copy?

 

I can think of about 150,000 reasons to buy the restored copy over the unrestored copy, and more if we're talking about a hypothetical unrestored 9.2 copy, which would be the lone 9.2 atop the CGC census.

 

If the 9.2 copy were not pressed, then at least something could be said about it to try and persuade the potential buyer that it is preferable to own an unpressed 9.2 restored than a pressed 9.0 (that two weeks before had been a 7.5) unrestored. Again, maybe to some it doesn't matter, but to others it does and when you are speaking about a six figure book, the loss of perhaps one buyer may result in the lose of a sale altogether.

 

Considering the restoration that is already on the book (Japan paper and adhesive), I don't think a simple press job would make a difference -- and the book was probably pressed anyway when the restorer finished up sealing the spine split and reinforcing the cover. Assuming that the restorer sealed the spine split with Japan paper and wheat paste, pressing (whether localized or generalized) would be the standard operating procedure when doing that kind of a repair because the aqueous-based adhesive (wheat paste) causes the surrounding paper to cockle and you need to press it flat to avoid warping. Whether the book is pressed by placing it in a dry mount press, is pressed locally with a tacking iron, or is pressed by putting the repair under weighted glass to hold it flat during drying of the adhesive, these are all still applications of pressure to flatten all or a portion of the book.

 

Granted, when you're talking $65K for a book, you're way out of my league so maybe there are high end collectors who really care whether the book has been pressed. I don't know that many other big ticket buyers would care, but if you say you'd care and you were the underbidder, then perhaps it would have had an impact on the final sales price regardless of what everyone else thinks. The high dollar spenders seem to be a pretty small group of people, so if one of them thinks that a certain treatment renders a book less valuable, it can have an effect on the realized price for the book.

 

BTW, the seller of the book has already told people he would sell it to them for a higher amount than the winning bid leading me even more to believe the last bid is highly suspect.

 

Sounds like a gem of a seller!

[FFB]

"That book had been pressed so hard it looked like the spine was ready to explode."

 

If you can actually tell the book was pressed, then shouldn't the book be considered restored?

 

I thought it was just the stealth invisible pressing that doesn't upset CGC?

 

Personally, if we have a "if a tree falls in the forest..." pressing situation, I don't think it needs to be called restored. but if you can tell it's been pressed, that's something else.

 

CGC won't give a pressed book a purple label unless the book was disassembled. If the pressing damages the book (like a pancaked spine or warping), CGC will downgrade for the defect and put it in a blue label.

[FFB]

I too have held off bidding on some high grade GA books for suspicion of pressing. (Especially books that were graded recently....Since pressing is a phenomenon that is rather recent in the big picture!) Actually, I feel more confident bidding on books that have the old CGC label.

 

Sorry to hog the thread, but one comment here -- Steve Borock has said a few times in the past that pressing has been part of the hobby for a long time. I don't think it's safe to assume that a book hasn't been pressed just because it's in an old label slab.

[clarkkentdds]

Yeah- but way more prevalent recently...Don't you think? (Especially with certain sellers!) I just feel better about the old logo.

[FFB]

Yeah- but way more prevalent recently...Don't you think? (Especially with certain sellers!) I just feel better about the old logo.

 

It has certainly gotten more attention on this forum in the last year. I don't know that this means that it wasn't happening all the time before then.

[Aman619]

Yeah- but way more prevalent recently...Don't you think? (Especially with certain sellers!) I just feel better about the old logo.

 

It has certainly gotten more attention on this forum in the last year. I don't know that this means that it wasn't happening all the time before then.

 

I have no data to back up my hunch on the increased incidences of pressing, but certainly with CGC now in the game, the increase in grade is numerically calculatable, and therefore, so are the increased "found" profits in the resultant pressed up a grade book. So with tangible positive results for a successful press job available, my 'guess' is that more dealers are sending more books out for such work.

 

Before CGC labels, you couldnt "lock in" double your original sales price just by making the book look a little better. But upgrading from 9.0 to 9.2 or 9.2 to 9.4 today generally doubles the value! Pretty nice upgrade.

[Arty]

 

 

AUCTION LINK

[FFB]

Looks like whoever did the work the second time around did a really nice job of fixing that bottom staple tear and cleaning the spine. Book looks much better now.

 

 

 

AUCTION LINK

[Harvey Dude]

So the seller lied through his teeth when he stated “This Batman #1 has been in my family since my father, as a young boy, walked to the local dime store and bought it.” Ebay seller, comicsr4ever made my "do not buy from" list.

[OldGuy]

Yeah- but way more prevalent recently...

 

[Silver Surfer]

What did this 9.0 copy sell for back then? Did the guy lose his shirt?

[FFB]

What did this 9.0 copy sell for back then? Did the guy lose his shirt?

 

It didn't sell in that auction. Maybe Filter can tell us what he paid for it and what he sold it for?

[AllTop8Me]

What did this 9.0 copy sell for back then? Did the guy lose his shirt?

 

It didn't sell in that auction. Maybe Filter can tell us what he paid for it and what he sold it for?

 

I believe Filter bought it on Mastronet for $15K in March '03. I don't know what he sold it for.

[FFB]

What did this 9.0 copy sell for back then? Did the guy lose his shirt?

 

It didn't sell in that auction. Maybe Filter can tell us what he paid for it and what he sold it for?

 

I believe Filter bought it on Mastronet for $15K in March '03. I don't know what he sold it for.

 

DAMN. What was that Tim was saying about "Hey guys, if you think slightly restored megakeys are selling too cheaply, start buying them"?

[tth2]

What did this 9.0 copy sell for back then? Did the guy lose his shirt?

 

It didn't sell in that auction. Maybe Filter can tell us what he paid for it and what he sold it for?

 

I believe Filter bought it on Mastronet for $15K in March '03. I don't know what he sold it for.

 

DAMN. What was that Tim was saying about "Hey guys, if you think slightly restored megakeys are selling too cheaply, start buying them"?

I think my words were more to the effect of "Stop whining and start putting your money where your mouths are!"

[abeautifulbook-migration]

Boy do I feel like an insufficiently_thoughtful_person! I think I gave away at least $25,000.00 when I sold my Batman 1 CGC 9.2 Slight (P), and simply embarrassed myself by embellishing an already great story - a story that caused many of the serious bidders to simply not bid. The actual facts behind this book are stunning: One individual owner for the majority of its 65-year life that treated it like the Mona Lisa. Touched when the owner decided that a small amount of conservation work would maintain and elongate this books considerable beauty. But, instead of just laying out those simple facts, I decide to make this into a love story - a tearjerker. I think I watch too many movies; this added marketing stunt backfired, and it turned-off many big-time players. I apologize for this and wish I could go back in time and change it. It certainly will never happen again. I really believe it cost me some serious money.

 

The book was originally graded a CGC 9.0, which when I bought it surprised me. It looked perfect, almost flawless. Nothing could have improved this book, certainly not pressing (as a matter of fact that probably would have weakened the pages). I felt like I had an arbitrage opportunity, to me it looked like a CGC 9.4. I decided to play Russian roulette with CGC; which of course, fails 95% of the time. I resubmitted it and hit the jackpot. Of course I was a little disappointed; I really thought it looked like a 9.4, and still do. Oh well, I was happy.

 

The book is beautiful and I should have let it stand on it's own. I really believe I would have made more money and would have avoided having to set the record straight with this embarrassing statement. But, I want to make sure there is trust in the community.

 

And though this book is a true CGC 9.2, I learned a valuable lesson from a marketing and sales perspective. For that, I'm deeply apologetic and will do ever it takes in the future to regain your trust.

 

Good luck to all of you!

 

 

 

Ray

[Aman619]

what an amazing post! I dont think Ive seen the like in the years Ive been here. Firstly thanx for telling us the whole story and admitting the deception. We have been very curious (as you can see) what was up. Its not often enough we ever get to find out what really happenned in these sketchy auctions. Of course, admitting your deception is wonderful kinda, and its nice to come clean, but your honesty is directly related to your remorse ove failing to cash in due to the deception, isnt it? So we gotta take it with a grain of salt.

 

anyway, thanx for coming on here to explain. Were you following the conversation while the auction was happenning too?

[abeautifulbook-migration]

Thank you for the kind words and comments. I don't follow message boards, I guess I probably should. I was told about the controversy after my auction was over. I wish someone would have told me earlier and I would have corrected the controversy immediately.

 

From my perspective, I added the gushy fiction portion to my auction for a couple of reasons. 1. I really wanted to know if anyone read this stuff but 2 and more importantly, I wanted to get non-comic owners pumped up. I love the profession and just wanted to get some excitement going. This was definitely accomplished! There were over 1000 people watching this auction. Naively, I thought the serious bidders would simply focus on the asset itself (the book) and bid accordingly to its condition. Some definitely did do this, but not all. For those people, I simply wasn't credible. I understand this now and want to regain this credibility.

 

Mark from Esquirecomics.com showed a lot of interest in the book and we traded some emails during the auction; however, it was after the auction when I had a chance to talk with him live that he made me aware of the overall controversy. Mark put a lot of time into following the auction and I could tell he wanted the book, and in the end he came up a little short and I could tell he was hurt. During this discussion where he mentioned the controversy, I asked him for guidance on correcting the overall issue. He told me to come to this board and set the record straight. I believe he called it "mea culpa", but I don't really know what that means. Anyway, I decided to come to the board, admit that I made a mistake, set the record straight, and apologize for the controversy I created.

 

I know that most people can't admit their mistakes, but I did not want to be like most people. If there was a way to correct the controversy and help people build trust in me again then I wanted to do it. It's not about money; it's about setting the right example. It's about faith: faith in the process and faith in god.

 

 

God bless you all!

[buttock]

It's not about money; it's about setting the right example. It's about faith: faith in the process and faith in god.

 

 

Aaaaaaaaand LYING on ebay auctions.

[Harvey Dude]

The actual facts behind this book are stunning: One individual owner for the majority of its 65-year life that treated it like the Mona Lisa. Touched when the owner decided that a small amount of conservation work would maintain and elongate this books considerable beauty.

 

Ray

 

I am still confused over "the actual facts”. The Batman appears to be the same book (CGC 9.0 slight restoration) that sold during the late spring/early summer 2004 based on some old correspondence I have with the previous owner of the book. Did he provide you the provenance for this book?