what would you do if you found the mile high collection 10 years ago?

[Silver Surfer]

I agree totally with FFB and I gain more respect for Chuck as time goes on. He personally responded in a very quick manner to a couple of inquiries I had which I find very impressive, especially for a guy that is as busy as he is.

[FFB]

I agree totally with FFB and I gain more respect for Chuck as time goes on. He personally responded in a very quick manner to a couple of inquiries I had which I find very impressive, especially for a guy that is as busy as he is.

 

I feel the same way about Chuck. I have emailed him probably a half dozen times over the years to ask different questions about this or that. He always responds politely and professionally and provides great information. He also thanks me for my interest in a genuine manner whenever I ask questions. Contrast that with countless others who act like you are wasting their time whenever you ask a question that doesn't have to do with purchasing a book.

 

mode ON

 

Is Chuck a perfect human being? No -- who is? He can be somewhat narcissistic at times and also a bit of a "salesman." But to focus on that and to ignore all of the things that he has done to help and to promote the hobby over the years is unfair. Whether his personality grates on your nerves or doesn't bother you at all, he is a true titan of this industry and he has helped build it up as much as anyone.

 

I believe it takes a certain personality type to achieve what Chuck has achieved in this hobby, and he has achieved a lot. In addition to his commercial success and role in establishing the direct market (and however much of his story you want to believe, it is indisputable that he was a major player in establishing the direct market once Seuling's stronghold was broken) without which the new comic market as we know it would not have survived the historical decline in newsstand sales, he has also made great contributions along the way toward various charitable causes such as the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund, ACTOR, and other organizations. It is too easy for people who haven't accomplished what he has to sit back and take shots at him. I'd like to see those same people accomplish what he has without ever "underpaying" for any comic collection or trying to get maximum value for items in their inventories.

 

Chuck's tendency to crow about his success is perhaps not the model of the magnanimous, selfless individual that forms the ideal of human virtue, but I'll bet that anyone else who has achieved significant success in this, or any other industry and who wants to place himself under the microscope wouldn't measure up either.

 

mode OFF.

[Aman619]

Chuck's tendency to crow about his success is perhaps not the model of the magnanimous, selfless individual that forms the ideal of human virtue, but I'll bet that anyone else who has achieved significant success in this, or any other industry and who wants to place himself under the microscope wouldn't measure up either.

 

mode OFF.

 

pish tosh... two words for ya: Steve Geppi. Like comparing a man to a mouse.

[FFB]

Chuck's tendency to crow about his success is perhaps not the model of the magnanimous, selfless individual that forms the ideal of human virtue, but I'll bet that anyone else who has achieved significant success in this, or any other industry and who wants to place himself under the microscope wouldn't measure up either.

 

mode OFF.

 

pish tosh... two words for ya: Steve Geppi. Like comparing a man to a mouse.

 

Are you saying that Steve Geppi achieved what he has without doing anything that people would cry foul over? COME ON.

[Aman619]

DO you hear such stories? Or him crowing about what a big success hero he is?? Ive done a few deals with him and he is very firm but fair and a pleasure to do business with. Chuck "fired me" cause the NMs I bought were VGs and I dared bring it to their attention.

 

anyway, Sure Chucks is imperfect etc and you make good points. And he has built something apparently large and successful, or so he says (though theyre always l,ooking for more dough arent they?

 

Hes just pretty unlikaable and a braggart and blowhard. SO what else is new? Like the Trump of comics - - and probably just as leveraged...

[lighthouse]

One of the things that I am surprised has not been mentioned thus far in this thread:

 

By most accounts, the Church collection is considered responsible for the explosion of high grade values.

 

Prior to the collection's discovery, the 3-2-1 pricing model ruled the day. You would have been lucky to get more than 3 times as much for a 9.4 as you got for a copy with water damage. And many collectors would have called you a fool for even paying that much, when the goal was to fill runs, not to have pretty copies.

 

Chuck's marketing of the Church collection changed that. Slowly at first. But the sudden availability of so many high grade copies from so many runs pushed collectors who otherwise didn't care as much about quality into being quality freaks. Without the Church collection out there as an example of what kind of books could be had, nearly all collectors would have continued with the "fill the run" mentality.

 

For a modern day comparison, look at the realized prices on Marvel's price variants from 1999 to 2002. The first few years of collectors' interest in the books, the pricing followed the old school 3-2-1 model very closely. I sold 2.0 copies of Spidey variants for about 1/3 of what I could get for 9.0s. Because the bulk of the collectors looking for them felt that just getting a copy was the paramount thing. The idea of waiting around for a nice copy of Marvel Tales 68 to come along before buying it was ludicrous. You paid good money for any copy you could find. Of course you paid a little more for a NM than you would for a GD (just as folks did with Golden Age in 1976). But the margins were pretty tight from low-grade to high-grade... Over time, as more copies came available, the spreads widened. Dramatically in some cases. Random 30c variants of common titles now frequently close under $5. Carl and Glenn are both trying to put together nice slabbed sets, something neither would have attempted just a couple years ago... It's one of those strange situations where an increase in supply can actually increase demand. (Just as demand for Platinum Age comics will never be high, because the supplies are so low that no one can get excited about competing over them).

 

Without the Church collection in the mix in 1977, pricing for the next decade would have been very different. You would have to look at the other pedigree collections that followed Church, and try to synthesize what their impact on the marketplace would have been had Church not gone before. Eventually the market would have seen large spreads. The discovery of all the other great pedigrees would have eventually pushed the market in that direction. But without Church as the impetus in 1977, it would have happened much later and much more slowly.

 

So trying to predict the effect of delaying Church by 18 years is a lot more complicated...

[FFB]

It's one of those strange situations where an increase in supply can actually increase demand. (Just as demand for Platinum Age comics will never be high, because the supplies are so low that no one can get excited about competing over them).

 

Same with DCs from about 1953 to 1960. They are much, much rarer in high grade than GA DCs or Silver Age Marvels, but there aren't many people who collect them because they're just plain tough to find above VG/FN.

 

Well, that and because the stories suck.

[Silver Surfer]

DO you hear such stories? Or him crowing about what a big success hero he is?? Ive done a few deals with him and he is very firm but fair and a pleasure to do business with. Chuck "fired me" cause the NMs I bought were VGs and I dared bring it to their attention.

 

anyway, Sure Chucks is imperfect etc and you make good points. And he has built something apparently large and successful, or so he says (though theyre always l,ooking for more dough arent they?

 

Hes just pretty unlikaable and a braggart and blowhard. SO what else is new? Like the Trump of comics - - and probably just as leveraged...

 

I wouldn't put him in the same company as Trump. Trump is an arrogant arse, likeable yes, but he carries on about how this is the finest and my car is the finest, I bought the finest trophy wife money could buy . Trump is a male version of his "good friend" Martha Stewart, two snobs. I think Chuck is just passionate about comics and has taken a page out of Stan Lee's book when it comes to marketing himself and I think it works. I don't see Chuck taking pot shots at other people like Trump does and bragging about what kind of car he drives. Plus Chuck has a better harido, he's probably Borock's idol.

[tth2]

Recheck your math.Nowhere in the post is he anywhere near $3 million for 10 books. More like $1.5 million.

 

Naw, my math is fine ... it's my reading comprehension skills that need work! I skimmed over the part where Tim lumped in "the other keys" to come up with his $3 million dollar figure.

 

Regardless, let's say the top ten books in the collection sell for $2 million. That still leaves you with 20 - 22,000 books to sell. 20/22,000 x $350 = $7 - $7.7 million for a grand total of $ 9 - $9.7 million.

 

As for flooding the market? Yeah, it would be flooded initially, and would probably take years to sell the entire thing (just like it took Chuck), but eventually the market would absorb them all. Again, if a dealer coudn't average $350 per book of the nicest collection ever found (ignore any cachet of provenance -- just treat them as gorgeous books!), he probably shouldn't have been dealing.

 

Alan

I don't know if you were big into HG GA back in 1995, but I think you're experiencing a case of transplanted memory.

 

I don't think the Top 10 would bring $2 million. By my estimate (and I think it's a very generous estimate) the Top 7 books (Action 1, Detective 27, Marvel Comics 1, Whiz 2, Superman 1, All-American 16, Batman 1) would bring $1.55 million.

 

The rest of the top keys would bring in no more than $50-75K each. So Cap #1 (and I have no idea what grade the Church Cap #1 is in, as I've never heard anything about it, but have assumed for this exercise that it's equal to the AT copy), More Fun 52, Sensation 1, All-Star 3, Detective 1, what else would have brought $50-75K in 1995 (I'm happily displaying my ignorance of GA here)? My guess is not a whole lot. So I think it would take more than a Top 10 to get to $2 million. Maybe Top 15 or so?

 

Finally, I think you are overestimating how much the non-keys and 2nd and 3rd tier titles would have been worth in 1995. I wouldn't so easily assume that the average price of the non-Top 15/20 books would be $350. And that's without taking into account market factors from the sudden release of this many HG books into the market simultaneously.

 

However, I do agree that my estimate of $3 million in total was light, because I did underestimate how quickly 20,000 odd books adds up. Even at $100 a pop, that's $2 million. So now we're around $4 million or so. But still nowhere close to $10 million. You guys are seeing 1995 valuations with 2005 post-CGC glasses on.

[toro]

Haven't read through the whole thread yet, but

 

1) [#@$%!!!] my pants

 

2) Take out a second mortgage on the house

 

3) [#@$%!!!] my pants again

 

4) Blow my brains out when I find out that it was Comic-Keys who actually sold me this collection.

[october]

[tth2]

4) Blow my brains out when I find out that it was Comic-Keys who actually sold me this collection.

[shadroch]

I have no problem with whatever amount chuck paid the Church heirs for their books. Either they named a price and he accepted or vice versa. Nothing I wouldn't have done,and something I hope to do.

But to read people saying they were racists so it doesn't really matter is pure BS.

[FFB]

I have no problem with whatever amount chuck paid the Church heirs for their books. Either they named a price and he accepted or vice versa. Nothing I wouldn't have done,and something I hope to do.

But to read people saying they were racists so it doesn't really matter is pure BS.

 

Just for that, I am going to wipe my butt with your ASM#11 before sending it to you.

[october]

As soon as I heard that Chuck had to rescue Church's art from the garbage heap, I lost all sympathy for his heirs. They sell off his house and his comics before he is even dead, and then toss out his life's work like it was a moldy sack of tangerines. Screew them. Even if they were "ripped off" (which I don't think they were, not morally and CERTAINLY not legally), I wouldn't care. Karma is a beeyotch and they reaped exactly what they sowed.

 

 

[eddly]

any guesses as to how much they got for the house? they should have thrown the house away...

[shadroch]

I have no problem with whatever amount chuck paid the Church heirs for their books. Either they named a price and he accepted or vice versa. Nothing I wouldn't have done,and something I hope to do.

But to read people saying they were racists so it doesn't really matter is pure BS.

 

Just for that, I am going to wipe my butt with your ASM#11 before sending it to you.

 

 

BEFORE SENDING IT????

You mean I won't have to flip at WW?If you don't get it out soon,the check will bounce and then I'll never get it.

[awe4one]

I have no problem with whatever amount chuck paid the Church heirs for their books. Either they named a price and he accepted or vice versa. Nothing I wouldn't have done,and something I hope to do.

But to read people saying they were racists so it doesn't really matter is pure BS.

 

Just for that, I am going to wipe my butt with your ASM#11 before sending it to you.

 

BEFORE SENDING IT????

You mean I won't have to flip at WW?If you don't get it out soon,the check will bounce and then I'll never get it.

 

I was much better not knowing any of this...

 

Jim

[kiltman]

I have no problem with whatever amount chuck paid the Church heirs for their books. Either they named a price and he accepted or vice versa. Nothing I wouldn't have done,and something I hope to do.

But to read people saying they were racists so it doesn't really matter is pure BS.

 

Just for that, I am going to wipe my butt with your ASM#11 before sending it to you.

 

If you do that with your comics then i'll be posting yours back without opening the box!

[FFB]

As soon as I heard that Chuck had to rescue Church's art from the garbage heap, I lost all sympathy for his heirs. They sell off his house and his comics before he is even dead, and then toss out his life's work like it was a moldy sack of tangerines. Screew them. Even if they were "ripped off" (which I don't think they were, not morally and CERTAINLY not legally), I wouldn't care. Karma is a beeyotch and they reaped exactly what they sowed.