what would you do if you found the mile high collection 10 years ago?

[1962]

As some members know I located Church's daughter and son-in-law approximately a year and a half ago. At that time I was interested in writing an article for CBM about the collection and I particularly wanted to obtain information from Church's family members as to who he was, why he collected, etc. Because of this I wrote to them. In the letter I also made it clear to them that people in the comic world knew the details of the sale of the collection from Chuck Rozanski's point of view, but no one knew the details of the sale from the Church family point of view and I invited them to share their side of the story with me. Unfortunately they elected not to respond to my letter.

 

After not hearing back from them I eventually turned my info over to Matt Nelson in the hopes that he may have better luck than I in regards to speaking with them, and could incorporate the information into his book on pedigrees. From the last time I spoke to Matt it was my understanding that he had not had any better success than I in obtaining info from Church's daughter and son-in-law.

 

While the silence from the Church family does not prove Chuck's side of the story, if they were indeed outraged over how they were ripped off and had lost a lawsuit over the sale of the collection, human nature tells me that the daughter would have wanted her father to receive recognition for assembling the greatest comic collection in a published article and would have wanted to share their side of the story if they indeed felt that they had been taken advantaged of in regards to the sale of the collection.

 

Because they did not respond I tend to believe that they felt the large collection and Edgar's accompanying artwork simply was a large burden that took up too much room in their tiny house while the daughter was growing up and so when the time came to sell the house they were thankful when someone agreed to take the stuff off their hands and as a bonus even pay them money to do so. Little did they know.

[Aces]

Would any collector fan pay 5 bucks to tour the basement? "And on the right is where the Batman's were stored"....OOOOHHHHH, AAAHHHH.

 

 

You just know that some would...

 

*To sit on the same toilet that all those book were read on*

[mica]

Would any collector fan pay 5 bucks to tour the basement? "And on the right is where the Batman's were stored"....OOOOHHHHH, AAAHHHH.

 

 

You just know that some would...

 

*To sit on the same toilet that all those book were read on*

Wouldn't that be the Charmin Pedigree? Or am I thinking Quilted Northern?

[deathlok]

Would any collector fan pay 5 bucks to tour the basement? "And on the right is where the Batman's were stored"....OOOOHHHHH, AAAHHHH.

 

[PedigreeMan]

As some members know I located Church's daughter and son-in-law approximately a year and a half ago. At that time I was interested in writing an article for CBM about the collection and I particularly wanted to obtain information from Church's family members as to who he was, why he collected, etc. Because of this I wrote to them. In the letter I also made it clear to them that people in the comic world knew the details of the sale of the collection from Chuck Rozanski's point of view, but no one knew the details of the sale from the Church family point of view and I invited them to share their side of the story with me. Unfortunately they elected not to respond to my letter.

 

After not hearing back from them I eventually turned my info over to Matt Nelson in the hopes that he may have better luck than I in regards to speaking with them, and could incorporate the information into his book on pedigrees. From the last time I spoke to Matt it was my understanding that he had not had any better success than I in obtaining info from Church's daughter and son-in-law.

 

While the silence from the Church family does not prove Chuck's side of the story, if they were indeed outraged over how they were ripped off and had lost a lawsuit over the sale of the collection, human nature tells me that the daughter would have wanted her father to receive recognition for assembling the greatest comic collection in a published article and would have wanted to share their side of the story if they indeed felt that they had been taken advantaged of in regards to the sale of the collection.

 

Because they did not respond I tend to believe that they felt the large collection and Edgar's accompanying artwork simply was a large burden that took up too much room in their tiny house while the daughter was growing up and so when the time came to sell the house they were thankful when someone agreed to take the stuff off their hands and as a bonus even pay them money to do so. Little did they know.

 

I still say you should have ambushed them and camped out on their doorstep until they gave you their side of the story!

 

[kiltman]

Would any collector fan pay 5 bucks to tour the basement? "And on the right is where the Batman's were stored"....OOOOHHHHH, AAAHHHH.

 

 

I can just see Greggy setting up camp in que to wait for that!

[1962]

[mr_highgrade]

Here's a copy of the deed from the sale of the house.

[lighthouse]

Um... did they really sell the house for ten dollars?

[mr_highgrade]

[FFB]

That looks like the deed from Edgar and his wife to Edgar's heirs, not from the sale of the house -- unless the heirs really only sold the house for ten bucks.

 

Here's a copy of the deed from the sale of the house.

[mr_highgrade]

I am not sure why it says ten dollars, but it is the deed to house that the Church's sold to the Scott Thielen. He's the one who mailed me this copy last year.

[mrwoogieman]

Um... did they really sell the house for ten dollars?

 

That's just legal shorthand (to satisfy the consideration part of contract making) to complete the deed. There's no requrement that the actual dollar figure be used. Much like when parties exchange releases following litigation, each litigant's release will say payment of $1.00 or $10.00 from one to the other even though it's really only one party paying the other party.

[mr_highgrade]

[lighthouse]

Thanks for the clarification...

 

I was thinking maybe the Church family were the big winners after all...

 

They got $3-5K for the comics when houses were selling for $10...

 

Do the quick math and that's about 400 houses at $230,000 a piece today... Carry the two... That's about $90 million... way more than the comics are worth...

[bobel]

I'd probably ask to use the bathroom after seeing the books. I'd need to because i would of myself. I'd of then of given them what they asked for the books or made an offer I could afford. When i found out Edgar was alive I would of done something to increase his comfort level at the nursing home...hell, I'd of owed him he'd of made me rich

 

If an expert appraises and item then buys it and resells it at ten times the appraisal that's fraud. Buying an item for what the owner wants and getting a great deal is luck.

 

I think people are hard on the Church family.If you ever dealt with an elderly parent with failing health or demetia it's overwhelming. What they saw was a house full of newsprint not valuables.

The fact of the matter is whether the Churchs were or were not rascist isn't revealed in Chuck's story. When neighborhoods went mexican or african american in the 60s and 70s it did effect the sale price. Recognizing society is prejudiced is not the same as being prejudiced. I think a lot of younger members might not realize how rascist the US was( still is in some parts).

I spent 3 months caring for my Mom while she was dieing. Within 2 months of that my Dad had a major stroke and I moved in to help him while he sold his house and moved into assisted living. Like me, my Dad threw nothing out. The basement was a nightmare to clean for the sale of the house. There was no worry about the "neighborhood" but, I and my sister had already pretty much had our lives on hold for a yr. A lot of my parents belongings went cheap at the estate sale. I cannot imagine how the Church heirs felt walking into that house stacked with worthless newsprint and having the overwhelming need to prep it for sale. It was junk too them as well as 99% of the population. You know, the dollars may of gone to care for Edgar Church not into the familys pockets as people assume. He was still alive in a nursing home. That newsprint had great value to Edgar Church he probably never knew it had real monetary value. He was a not associated with the hobby his collection was an island. I'd like to think He'd be pleased it meant so much to so many. His " junk" to be carted for the sale of a house granted him a measure of immortality.

[lou_fine]

Recheck your math.Nowhere in the post is he anywhere near $3 million for 10 books. More like $1.5 million.

 

Naw, my math is fine ... it's my reading comprehension skills that need work! I skimmed over the part where Tim lumped in "the other keys" to come up with his $3 million dollar figure.

 

Regardless, let's say the top ten books in the collection sell for $2 million. That still leaves you with 20 - 22,000 books to sell. 20/22,000 x $350 = $7 - $7.7 million for a grand total of $ 9 - $9.7 million.

 

As for flooding the market? Yeah, it would be flooded initially, and would probably take years to sell the entire thing (just like it took Chuck), but eventually the market would absorb them all. Again, if a dealer coudn't average $350 per book of the nicest collection ever found (ignore any cachet of provenance -- just treat them as gorgeous books!), he probably shouldn't have been dealing.

 

Alan

I don't know if you were big into HG GA back in 1995, but I think you're experiencing a case of transplanted memory.

 

I don't think the Top 10 would bring $2 million. By my estimate (and I think it's a very generous estimate) the Top 7 books (Action 1, Detective 27, Marvel Comics 1, Whiz 2, Superman 1, All-American 16, Batman 1) would bring $1.55 million.

 

The rest of the top keys would bring in no more than $50-75K each. So Cap #1 (and I have no idea what grade the Church Cap #1 is in, as I've never heard anything about it, but have assumed for this exercise that it's equal to the AT copy), More Fun 52, Sensation 1, All-Star 3, Detective 1, what else would have brought $50-75K in 1995 (I'm happily displaying my ignorance of GA here)? My guess is not a whole lot. So I think it would take more than a Top 10 to get to $2 million. Maybe Top 15 or so?

 

Finally, I think you are overestimating how much the non-keys and 2nd and 3rd tier titles would have been worth in 1995. I wouldn't so easily assume that the average price of the non-Top 15/20 books would be $350. And that's without taking into account market factors from the sudden release of this many HG books into the market simultaneously.

 

However, I do agree that my estimate of $3 million in total was light, because I did underestimate how quickly 20,000 odd books adds up. Even at $100 a pop, that's $2 million. So now we're around $4 million or so. But still nowhere close to $10 million. You guys are seeing 1995 valuations with 2005 post-CGC glasses on.

 

tth2;

 

Got to this thread late here, but here's my take on the estimated value of the collection if it came into the market 10 years ago during the same market conditions that existed in June 1995.

 

Usually, I am in agreement with most of your opinions, but this is one of the few times I would disagree and side with PM's opinion that the $10M would actually be a very conservative valuation. My memory of 1995 and early 1996 market sentiment places HG GA to be at its absolute pinnacle even taking CGC into consideration. In fact, based upon recent auction prices, the market for GA in post-CGC 2005 relative to OS price guide could be viewed as almost stone-cold dead in comparison to the blazing hot GA market of 1995.

 

The early 90's were one of the boom periods for the SA and MA market with the rise of Valiant and Image. This was followed by a collaspe of the MA market with a lot of money flowing into GA during 1995 after several up years for Silver making GA look cheap in comparison. 1995 was when major DEALERS were going crazy offering silly multiples for HA GA books. I still remember dealers offering $10K for my copy of All-Select #1 when it was guiding for only $2K at the time. Their rationale was the market was so hot they already had ready buyers for the book at $15K.

 

In fact, the market was so hot for GA in 1995, OS had to released a Golden Age update in the fall updating his 1995 annual guide prices. A beautiful little edition with a drawing of 'Tec #1 on the cover. Full colour historical price graphs on books such as Suspense #3 which went from $2K in guide to $7K in the update, Mystery Men #1 from $2,100 to $7,500, Exciting #9 from $1,100 to $3,500, Wonderworld #3 from $2,100 to $4.200, etc. Knowing how traditionally conservative Bob is when it comes to price increases, you can get a feeling of how hot the market was for GA at the time.

 

Based upon the mood of the marketplace in 1995 as shown above, there would have been no problems for the average MH GA book to acheive not only $100 per book, but even more than the stated high-end of $350 per book. An average price of roughly $450 per book would push the Church collection into the $10M valuation. This would not have been a problem, especially with dealers at the time paying multiples to guide for second tier titles such as early HG Fox books guiding for $500 and flipping them for $3K.

 

Bottom-line: $10 million dollars......way too low for a 22,000 pedigree collection being released into a blazing red-hot GA market such as 1995.

[DawgPhan]

Thanks for the clarification...

 

I was thinking maybe the Church family were the big winners after all...

 

They got $3-5K for the comics when houses were selling for $10...

 

Do the quick math and that's about 400 houses at $230,000 a piece today... Carry the two... That's about $90 million... way more than the comics are worth...

[garthgantu]

 

His daughters are hot though!

 

kidding....

 

Keep it up, and Chuckie will place you on Double Secret Probation, Aman!

[garthgantu]

 

You know I read this same paragraph you cite as some kind of proof, and I just scratch my head. Wait a minute I say, Chuck says he SHOWED them how much they were worth in the Overstreet Guide, and they said NO? He proved to them that just a few dozen of the best books were worth twice the price he says they wanted for ALL 18000 book???

 

and you actually take his word on this??

 

This part of Chuck's account does seem pretty iffy. How much could the 'bungalow' have sold for in '77... $50k ? $75k? If you were about to sell the house and someone pointed out that some of the contents of the house were worth more than the house itself, wouldn't you change your tune about finding another way to liquidate those valuable contents? Let's face it, the first thing that happens when you show any casual owner (non-collector) of even a handful of comic books the Overstreet Guide, their eyes get big and they have visions of their books being worth a mint. The Church heirs were in fact sitting on a mint, with the proof supposedly presented to them in black and white, and they insisted on 'clearing out' the comics ASAP at essentially any price? Seems like history being rewritten here. The conversation must have gone something like this:

 

Chuck: "Look at this official price guide for comic books..it's in it's 8th edition, so you know it's at least reasonably authoritative. The books I see stacked here would guide for tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars - let me help you sell them and split the proceeds, and I'll guarantee you $100,000 miniumum for your share!"

 

Church Heirs: "What part of 'get the funnybooks the hell out of here don't you understand, hippie-man? We've got a house worth $45,000 here, and we wanna sell it fast; $2,000 for the periodicals or we haul them to the dump, no matter how much they're worth!"

 

I do think Chuck has attained some level of greatness - in public relations. His account of the Church Pedigree acquisition is hauntingly similar to some of Caesar's published reports from the front lines of the Gallic Wars. (Caesar was great at rewriting recent history for public consumption too - it got him 'elected' emperor.)

 

*Someone tracked down the sales records for the house from the time period in question, and posted that info awhile back, as I recall... was the selling price of the house included in that thread/post?