Michaeld Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 I won something recently on HA. A fellow collector told me I paid too much. There is no price guide on comic art. Most of us figure out value by looking at previous sales of comparable pieces. If there are no dishonest actions from the auction house (chandelier bids) and all bidders put up their top dollar bid until one amount prevails doesn't that set the value of the piece? I can't think of a better way to figure out what something is worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malvin Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 22 minutes ago, Michaeld said: I won something recently on HA. A fellow collector told me I paid too much. There is no price guide on comic art. Most of us figure out value by looking at previous sales of comparable pieces. If there are no dishonest actions from the auction house (chandelier bids) and all bidders put up their top dollar bid until one amount prevails doesn't that set the value of the piece? I can't think of a better way to figure out what something is worth. agreed for the most part, except you have to realize that with auctions (and any sale venue I suppose) there are always outliers, and the trick is understanding what is an outlier and what isn't. Malvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThothAmon Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 I think Auctions do in fact set the value for a piece but remember that prior sales are no guarantee of future results. Even though I also won an auction piece I certainly wouldn’t be surprised if some consignors continue to shill bid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twanj Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 As mentioned in another thread, I think by @delekkerste, in an auction you have the guys who want something the most... the top bidder & the underbidder(s). someone that aggressive will usually find another piece, and if there aren't others in demand that can lead to price drops if it comes back to auction later. delekkerste 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtymartini1 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 The auctions are like the wild west. We have the shillers, We have people w specific collections who bid up items to protect their overall value and establish new floor prices. Best of all we have auctions that allow their own employees and owners to bid! How bout that? We are supposed to believe they are not looking at info only they are privy to? Anytime I see a piece actually about to go for a "good" price, there is a long pause, the hammer fails to drop and then there is a flurry of bidding. If the hammer does drop, 75% of the time they reopen the item bc of a last min delayed bid. What can you do? If its a must have piece, you give it your best shot. Squeezy McSphincter , Flambit, Catwoman_Fan and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panelfan1 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 (edited) @Michaeld so what was the item? Re - question. Auction prices may only set market value when the pool of collectors on a piece is large. On ebay you can see the bids - onxe its over and see how many were serious bidders and at what level only 2 folks were left. Dont hink you can see this on HA or Clink. On the other hand - the final price may be lower without you. Just as with auctions you may back out of - their end price would have had to be higher for you to have won. Edited March 1, 2018 by Panelfan1 Rick2you2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdroom Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 The maximum value of the piece to the buyer, at the time of purchase, is what the underbidder bid. You, the buyer, were the ONLY person willing to pay what you paid, so that's not really a reasonable basis for setting FMV. delekkerste 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCarter27 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 (edited) I would go so far as to say it takes three to truly tango... FMV in my mind is probably one bid above the third highest bidder's max. Everything over that is two crazy people. But three is probably a consensus. And as a followup... When the high bidder bails on the deal, I think the underbidder should be approached to buy only at the increment I just described. Edited March 1, 2018 by BCarter27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suspense39 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 Well, I can say I’ve only lost money reselling anything I’ve ever bought at Heritage.....not major losses but around 10-20% also dealers can buy and mark it up claiming it was undervalued, I’m not in that position even if I believe it was.....so along with some other great points stated above, I would say auctions just give a loose idea of what value might be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick2you2 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 In this market, pay particular attention to the fact it is very small, and, there is a huge quantity of medium to lower priced product (under 10K). So, variation is wide. Several years ago, I spotted some animation cells on Heritage with Chiquita Banana on them (from a commercial). As a gift to my daughter, who knew the jingle and sang it as a child, I decided to buy some. As I recall, some early sales prices were over $300. But after about 6-7 sold, I bought one for about $25 (and another, earlier one for about $125). Demand was filled. By the way, my daughter loved them after framing. When you think of auction prices being a "loose" reflection of market value , "small numbers" can also have large percentage variations. As such, "overpaying" may not be that big a deal if the overpayment was a function of percentages instead of hard numbers. Just go with what you like, what you can afford, and what you are willing to pay for how much you like it. The heck with "value" unless you plan to sell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twanj Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, suspense39 said: Well, I can say I’ve only lost money reselling anything I’ve ever bought at Heritage.....not major losses but around 10-20% also dealers can buy and mark it up claiming it was undervalued, I’m not in that position even if I believe it was.....so along with some other great points stated above, I would say auctions just give a loose idea of what value might be This was kind of my feeling from watching auctions. Heritage gets the most $ from a seller's perspective. It also charges the most from a buyer's side (BP=19.5%). But it also gets the most eyeballs & BSDs, along with some of the best pieces. ComicLink gets less, but maybe people are less shy without any BP. eBay gets the buyer the least, but it's any time you want (not quarterly or even weekly). For Sale By Owner maybe gets the least amount of eyes, but most flexibility. So to go back to the OP, as the highest bidder on Heritage, you were the one willing to pay the most on the most expensive sales platform. Can you buy on Heritage then turn around and sell higher on your own? Not unless someone there's an immediate interested buyer or someone fell asleep for the auction. Can you sell again at Heritage? Theoretically, you're already losing about 30-37% (BP+seller's fee+sales tax in some states). Can you sell on your own? Sure, but someone won't pay Heritage prices. Edited March 1, 2018 by Twanj forgot they now charge sales tax in some states Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 9 hours ago, BCarter27 said: I would go so far as to say it takes three to truly tango... FMV in my mind is probably one bid above the third highest bidder's max. Everything over that is two crazy people. But three is probably a consensus. And as a followup... When the high bidder bails on the deal, I think the underbidder should be approached to buy only at the increment I just described. Yes to all of the above. Third bidder is "the market", the rest is hot air and there could be (for some of us, anyway) concerns about the source of that direct underbidder's motivation re: his air too. 16 hours ago, Michaeld said: I can't think of a better way to figure out what something is worth. Actually the top is always unknown but the bottom isn't, or rather...the best gauge of 'worth' to me is when something sits at fixed price. And sits. And sits. And sits. That tells me the price ain't right (it's 'over the top') as there is enough liquidity and speculation in the hobby (now, not twenty years ago though) that only overpriced remains unsold. There isn't, imo, anything underappreciated anymore. Further, I think we should all consider that while HA's last sale was pretty spectacular for sellers (general consensus, no), it was so in USD. Which is weak right now against other major currencies. Not a minor thing that as I already see pieces from this sale and other recent sales popping up on...European dealer sites. They are enjoying their leveraged purchasing power again, after having been semi- out of the market the last several years. Sellers enjoy it (while it lasts). Buyers (in USD funding)...beware Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipB2k17 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 11 minutes ago, vodou said: Yes to all of the above. Third bidder is "the market", the rest is hot air and there could be (for some of us, anyway) concerns about the source of that direct underbidder's motivation re: his air too. Actually the top is always unknown but the bottom isn't, or rather...the best gauge of 'worth' to me is when something sits at fixed price. And sits. And sits. And sits. That tells me the price ain't right (it's 'over the top') as there is enough liquidity and speculation in the hobby (now, not twenty years ago though) that only overpriced remains unsold. There isn't, imo, anything underappreciated anymore. Further, I think we should all consider that while HA's last sale was pretty spectacular for sellers (general consensus, no), it was so in USD. Which is weak right now against other major currencies. Not a minor thing that as I already see pieces from this sale and other recent sales popping up on...European dealer sites. They are enjoying their leveraged purchasing power again, after having been semi- out of the market the last several years. Sellers enjoy it (while it lasts). Buyers (in USD funding)...beware There are literally millions of OA pages out there. Vast majority of it is sitting, and sitting, and sitting, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suspense39 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 3 hours ago, Twanj said: Can you sell again at Heritage? Theoretically, you're already losing about 30-37% (BP+seller's fee+sales tax in some states). I ask myself this same question when I bid Twanj 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 2 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said: There are literally millions of OA pages out there. Vast majority of it is sitting, and sitting, and sitting, etc. Yes. And generally "off" market too. Which means everything and nothing at the same time, in the context of the comment I was replying too That which is on-market is...overpriced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgefhagenauer2 Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 It varies by auction- what I have found interesting over the years is how much art including very high priced art sells at heritage and then reappears for sale at dealers websites - so it is a bit of a shoot and heritage is not the only price there are lots of other places selling art - heritage's files are just the most visible but as well as having some top market sales they also have below market sales when dealers or others buy for resale and then succeed in selling higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamhlawson Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 On 3/1/2018 at 10:44 AM, PhilipB2k17 said: There are literally millions of OA pages out there. Vast majority of it is sitting, and sitting, and sitting, etc. Sorry if asked before. Millions? How many? I'm just curious as to the best guessed actual figure utilized in the hobby. I'm assuming it was figured out by someone at some point in time. Sheesh...golden age to present U.S. publishers only with original art in those issues as an approximate page count (excluding reprint page counts would be a doctoral thesis probably). To me the only thing that dictates value is what I would pay for a piece individually. Which (unfortunately) is influenced by the under bidder (scrupulous or otherwise), the dealer, the artist, other collectors, availability of material, rarity, age, hot material status, premiums, my wife...oh crud forget all the above. My wife dictates the value of a piece. At least she cares right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapeape Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Best practice: keep a general idea of what pieces are going for that you are interested in. That is everything from ebay, auction houses and dealers. Than bid or buy accordingly. I've seen art bought and relisted (flipped) and the buyer loses. You usually make money if you buy something under the radar than sell privately. I do believe if you buy what you love, art for art sake, you won't lose. everything else is gambling/stock market ups and downs. Great forum everyone. I appreciate all the opinions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick2you2 Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 11 hours ago, williamhlawson said: My wife dictates the value of a piece. My ex used to dictate the value of peace. dirtymartini1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S. Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 2 hours ago, Rick2you2 said: My ex used to dictate the value of peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...