OA and heat 0

[hmendryk]

3 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

I imagine something like this Stuntman piece is a mix of old acidic paper cooking in an attic (those temps regularly swing between the 40s and the low 100s in the course of a year in the Mid-Atlantic area.) and the humidity swings that go along with that. But even if it had been kept indoors, just the way the industrialized wood pulp paper was manufactured in those days all but guaranteed its fate no matter what.

I am sure you are correct about there being acid in old illustration boards. But I have handled many and not just those from my collection but Joe Simon's former collection as well. Besides these attic Stuntman splashes, I have never seen any show signs of turning brittle. They are as physically strong as the day they were made. The only problem I have observed is a some yellowing (which is why I am sure there is some acid content). So while I agree with you about their eventual fate, it looks to me that the time in the attic has accelerated the aging by centuries. Handled correctly art on illustration boards should last a long, long time.

Some of my pieces are framed and hanging on my walls. None are exposed to direct sunlight and all have UV protected museum glass. So far I have not detected any problems with the actual art. I did have some artists signatures fade but these were recent additions done in marker. Although not exposed to sunlight they were facing the window. I have since moved them to another wall not facing the window to see if that helps. But frankly I am less concerned about marker signatures than I am about the original art.

I have only had one occasion where I removed a piece of art from the frame. It had been up on my wall at least ten years but I could not detect any more yellowing on the exposed part as compared to the part covered by the matting.

All my hanging art are inked only  work, no color. That is except for a Kirby collage that is in its original frame and too large to store. I keep it in my bedroom where the window faces north and is always shuttered so light levels are always low. I have a Jack Davis piece that I would love to hang if it wasn't for my fear that the colors might be affected even slightly.

[ESeffinga]

You are right of course. I imagine the attic cooking/freezing cycle has massively accelerated the effect. And there are forms of “cardboard” and such in art museums that have held up surprisingly well.

I just mean to say older industrialized paper contains large quantities of natural wood pulp acids, and they are going to do what they are going to do over time. Limiting any UV exposure will slow the possibility of the acids browning or becoming brittle as they dry out and crystallize. It may take centuries. And is especially ironic as many ancient forms of paper-making were far more archivally friendly than the “modern” forms of the industrialized turn of the century inventions.

Its funny because this same effect is something desired on vintage instruments like guitars and violins, as that crystal lattice structure formed of the sap essentially becoming like an amber at the molecular structure, it is less flexible and more stiff. It yields a wholly unobtainable sound from any new woods. Only time brings it about. 

And now I’m totally rambling!

Getting back to the point, you are dead right about monitoring the art and individuals should be making on the fly determinations about how to handle it. 

So add this to the list of things art collectors should come to understand, just like how to bid on art, and what the prices of a given market look like. Maintinging a collection and how to approach displaying (or not) are going to be just as unique as the collector and the makeup of their pieces.

Edited March 29, 2018 by ESeffinga

[Buzzetta]

To be honest... it merely has to last longer than I am alive.  After that... 

I will have other things to be worried about... 

[Taylor G]

This is a page from "Unto This World" that Craig Russell had hanging framed on his wall for a few years:

[ESeffinga]

Hey, that reminded me of this video...

 

And the video brings up a point I'd meant to mention here a LONG time ago and keep forgetting to bring up as an FYI for people that hang framed art.

A number of my older pieces had these clear rubber bumpers on the bottom two sides that often would be added by the framers, back before I started doing them myself.

When I pulled down about half our art a number of years ago and totally repainted the interior of the living room and main hallway and dining room, I noticed that wherever those rubber bumpers were, there was what almost looked like a grease stain on the wall.   Not like Russel's black marks form his black bumpers, but just the wall color, but darker, as if someone poked the paint with an oily potato chip finger, casing that spot to appear darker. These were pieces that had hung in place for about 2 - 4 years.

No big deal, I thought, as I primed and repainted the walls.

What I wanted to say here today, is that now 4 years on from repainting, those original darker spots where those rubber feet originally were, are now bleeding through my new paint, even though I stopped using those rubber feet. Whatever petroleum or what have you, had leeched out of them and into the wall, managed to leech through multiple coats of fresh primer and multiple color coats as well. It's insane. I figure the next time I repaint, I'll use an oil based primer on those walls, to help block those spots from leaching through again. I should take a picture of a couple.

My recommendation, is if you have them, stop using those rubber bumpers. Or as I've done, try using the cream colored felt furniture pad dots they sell at the hardware store for putting on the bottom of chair legs and such, and switch them out every couple years. They still have the same buffering properties to keep the frame from rubbing the wall, but also as far as I can tell, don't leach anything onto the wall surface. I have steered away from using the green or black felt pads, jsut for fear of somehow the color leaching or rubbing off.

 

Also cringing, at his use of electrical tape to affix the art to the mat!

-e.

Edited March 30, 2018 by ESeffinga

[BCarter27]

5 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

there was what almost looked like a grease stain on the wall

This exact same thing happened to me. Those bumpers turned to sludge and would NOT come off the wall!

Edited March 30, 2018 by BCarter27

[ESeffinga]

Interestingly mine weren't sludge or even soft. They looked exactly the same clear and hard as always. They just left the small wet-looking darker spot on the wall.

The one that came back after re-painting. Grrr.

[Taylor G]

8 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

Hey, that reminded me of this video...

Craig says in the video that (at least for color), he'll hang a glicee print of the art and leave the original in storage.

He mentions the spray fix-it for pencils darkening over time.  Does anyone have any recommendations on that score, specifically for B&W pencil art?

[ESeffinga]

Others can chime in if they know better, but I had a bad experience with spray fix early on back when I was in school, unrelated to archival issues, so I swore off the stuff. Years later I started hearing stories about how badly the spray fix was yellowing. 

It wouldn’t surprise me if some brands darken or fade more than others. And maybe science has allowed them the develop brands of spray fix that are more color resistant today than they used to be? All I know was that it was suggested by our instructors that we use it to prevent smudging. You know, to protect the pencil (charcoal, pastel) archivally speaking. And in the end the  pigments and graphite, and charcoal are much less likely to fade on their own, if at all in the case of the charcoal and traditional pencil. The fixative was almost guaranteed to darken. We just didn’t know how much until years later.

My experience is if you have a clean pencil piece, frame it or sleeve it and don’t handle it. It’ll be good for the long haul as far as not fading because of light exposure is concerned.

The paper may or may not darken on its own, and the amount to which it’ll show depends on its age.

Color pigments used in things like oil paints, pastels and colored pencils tend to fade more slowly if at all noticeably over decades, depending on what was used. 

Colored dyes and inks tend to fade much faster (watercolors, Dr. Martin’s inks, color washes of gouache, colored markers)

PCRs piece was getting blasted by full sun on all sides, and even he says the colors all look good, it’s just the darkening yellowing of the paper a bit. And that’s as likely to be that damn spray fix as the paper exposure to sun. Maybe a bit of both.

More importantly to me,  I was reminded when watching it that anything in full sun in a fixed position for years runs the risk of irregular fading if there are any light obstructions in the daily path of the light. 

Something I’ll have to keep an eye on with a couple of my own large paintings.

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by ESeffinga

[vodou]

6 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

My experience is if you have a clean pencil piece, frame it or sleeve it and don’t handle it. It’ll be good for the long haul as far as not fading because of light exposure is concerned.

Fixative, for all it's potential evils, also prevent migration of the graphite/charcoal/etc particles from the paper to the sleeve or glass. And if sleeve, the even worse thing can be you carefully try sliding it out, and the smudging that occurs is actually the migrated particles "on the sleeve" smudging back onto the paper. Of course with "pencil" there's #2 kind and all the rest with some being very close to charcoal stick in actuality and that's where you'd have more of a concern (than #2 let's say). Fading...I see almost no risk of that, it's the smudging and migration. Lamination is so out of favor these days, but it would resolve all the issues we're talking about here, yeah?

[Taylor G]

Thanks for your comments.  When I bought this art from a rep, he recommended fixative, and I've always felt guilty about not doing that, just no time.   I assume the OA police will take away my license to own OA if I have it laminated..... 

[Alf Pogs]

What about masking tape? I just got a Double Splash from the 90's and it looks fine but we all remember what the chemical engineer said about those Conan pages. Should I scrape it off?

[Rick2you2]

23 hours ago, Taylor G said:

 I assume the OA police will take away my license to own OA if I have it laminated..... 

They have death squads.

[Pete Marino]

43 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

They have death squads.

Chinese murder vans

[delekkerste]

On 3/29/2018 at 4:54 AM, ESeffinga said:

I don't because, and this is just personally speaking, looking at a copy of the piece doesn't give me the same feeling.

I agree - I couldn't justify paying the sums that we do just to look at an oversized photocopy in a frame instead of the real thing.    

[ESeffinga]

On 3/31/2018 at 12:01 PM, Taylor G said:

Thanks for your comments.  When I bought this art from a rep, he recommended fixative, and I've always felt guilty about not doing that, just no time.   I assume the OA police will take away my license to own OA if I have it laminated..... 

If handled limitedly and with care, pencil should last ages and ages. Framed or sleeved, you really shouldn’t have to set hands on it again, other than to reframe or reserve some later year.

 Lamination by comparison isn’t just inadvisable, lamination is guaranteed to yellow. Not just the plastic, but the adhesive that holds the plastic on as it is heat applied. And most laminates already have color to them. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a colorless laminate. So you’d already be starting with an “aged” effect on dat one.

That said, I know you guys are joking, (mostly)...

[stinkininkin]

1 hour ago, delekkerste said:

I agree - I couldn't justify paying the sums that we do just to look at an oversized photocopy in a frame instead of the real thing.    

Same here.  The logic would eventually lead me to liquidating my originals and just cut out my favorite masterpieces from various Artist's Editions and framing those.  Only then, I'd feel like garbage for defacing a book and I'd be mad at myself for spending good money on expensive frames on glorified copies.  Any way you look at this, it doesn't lead to a good place.

[Bronty]

Yeah.    Framing a copy is like the art collectors version of the couch that’s wrapped in plastic.    Sure, you’ve protected the couch (art) but you’ve lost all enjoyment of it in the process

Edited April 3, 2018 by Bronty

[Rick2you2]

13 hours ago, stinkininkin said:

Same here.  The logic would eventually lead me to liquidating my originals and just cut out my favorite masterpieces from various Artist's Editions and framing those.  Only then, I'd feel like garbage for defacing a book and I'd be mad at myself for spending good money on expensive frames on glorified copies.  Any way you look at this, it doesn't lead to a good place.

For the past 6 months, I have been doing both. Behind my home desk, I keep some of the originals in sleeves and  a ledger-sized photocopy. I leave the photocopy on top to protect against sunlight, but when I feel like really looking at the art, I look at the one in the sleeve. It's been working pretty well, and I'm thinking of rotating out different pieces using the same approach.

[Weird Paper]

On April 2, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Bronty said:

Yeah.    Framing a copy is like the art collectors version of the couch that’s wrapped in plastic.    Sure, you’ve protected the couch (art) but you’ve lost all enjoyment of it in the process

I'm gonna play devil's advocate on this. I have some prints up, framed, in place of originals, and it doesn't bother me at all. I have the peace of mind to know they're not fading. I took 1200 dpi full-sized scans and printed them on similar-finish paper on a high-quality, eight-color Epson -- tears, tape, toning, warts and all. If you walked into the room, and didn't know some of them were prints, it would probably never occur to you. I can look at the originals any time I want, but I don't have to worry about any fading. It's a win-win. If there was some aspect to their presentation that screamed "copy," like a reduced size or pixellization, it wouldn't work. The thickness and some surface aspects of the paper are different, but it's not evident in a frame. Hell, I even got lazy on a few and printed the matte around it, complete with a bevel and faint shadow to make it look real.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Weird Paper