Look at this historic piece of production art!

[Aman619]

[Aman619]

Also, without pulling out a printed cover, unless thi sis a lousy scan, looks to me like the gals at Eastern color used this as a color guide and THEY did the actuall coloring.

 

In my experience here how it works. The four color plates for the press are burned using one negative per plate, those negatives representing the yellow, magenta ("red"), cyan ("blue") and blacks from the art. It is from those negatives that a color proof is pulled. Usually a color-key, which is a four-layer acetate composite, each layer having the yellow, magenta, cyan and black inks. That color-key is what is used to color check a press job. It makes no sense to use an independent piece of art to color proof a job when the negatives have to exist in order to burn the plates. It is the the color proofs made from those negatives that are the reference source.It is those negatives and proofs that ultimately show what the press job is capable of producing.

 

POV, I KNOW you KNOW this stuff too. But for the life of me I dont know what you were explaining here!! sheesh

[Mushroom]

This is an extremely important water colour.

 

I was wondering about the media. The firgures sure could be watercolor. The background has a pastels feel to it. But that texture from pastels would come from a rough surface. Interesting thing this is.

 

POV an answer to your question.........

 

 

"Most of the hand-colored Adler pieces were done in watercolor. There is a

little ink, on some, too. Plus, the piece I am holding right now (piece name removed because I may want to buy it - shroom) is definitely way different. I

believe it is all acrylic paint, as it is no longer supple like all the

others, it is now stiff and heavy, from the heavier paint type!"

[Mushroom]

So here's my point of view. Compare this final piece to Adler's comp/painting/layout/sketch etc. The final cover was entirely recreated following Adler's suggested colors, but none of his actual brushstrokes were used in its creation.

 

Here is what was said at the start of this thread..........

 

I don't know why they took out so much of the background texture/shading? And I also like how that painting is so uncluttered, without the usual issue number, month, etc."

[Mushroom]

Okay.....it is just amazing how difficult it is, when you are passionate for something, to get others to understand. The following are some points that may or may not be of interest to you all and then I am done with this.

 

Quote 1:

 

One person was wondering why I said "original art" in the title of the Bat

#232 art, instead of the condition! I sent him this reply:

 

Many people list copies of Batman #232. It is not a rare comic book. So

thousands of fans can own one.

 

Unlike cover production art such as this museum piece, which only one person

gets to possess.

 

That is why it is differentiated like that in the title, so it isn't

confused with a mere comic-book, which they printed hundreds of thousands of

copies of. (And there isn't room to list all the details in the brief

title, so I go into much greater detail in the item description.)

 

No matter if it is the original pencils, that have been traced over by an

inker, --or if it is the stat that was hand painted by Jack Adler under hire

by DC, it is still how the comic's cover was created, and is undeniably a

one-of-a-kind piece of DC comics' cover art history!

 

I bet a lot more people can afford a singe grand, instead of the twenty

thou$and or more dollars that the black & white original piece of the same

cover would command in today's market. This piece offered now on ebay is

certainly the next best thing.

 

It is not a mere print, or photocopy. Nobody else has this version of the

cover. Did you look at the scan, and see the numerous differences, when

compared to every other existing version of the iconic image? It is the

actual piece that was used to create the comic that so many fans know and

love!

 

For much more details on the comic production process that was prevalent in

the silver/bronze era, you'll want a copy of the Comic Book Marketplace #85,

which has a great full-color feature article on the subject.

 

 

Quote 2:

 

"for that kind of price,

you could get somebody to do a recreation." Yep, even you, or I, can do a

"recreation", any time we want. For fun, hobby, or to earn spare dollars.

But savvy fans will surely much prefer those historic items that were

created BEFORE the comic first existed, the pieces that actually MADE said

comic. ~FAR more than modern facsimiles, tributes, homages, prints,

recreations, or any other MERE imitation! I have had many sketches made

from major artists, and enjoy them. But when Neal Adams was holding up one

of the hand-colored Adler pieces, refering to them as original art,and

signing, admiring, and reminiscing about them, it was obvious that he, recognized their significance.

 

Quote 3:

 

Because it is known to those who attended the "spotlight on Jack Adler"

panel at San Diego Comic-Con 2004, along with plenty of knowledgable

experts, that there was only one hand-colored piece for each comic cover.

And many no longer exist. Ditto for most pencilled/inked pages of the day.

If the colors on the Approval Cover were not quite what the DC exec's and

Adler had in mind, then the printer would send them another, slightly

different version, attempting to get closer to the hand-colored version. So

the Approval Covers are not always one of a kind, but they are sure

exponentially rarer than the printed comic-books themselves! And you just

don't get rarer than the pencilled/inked line art and the hand-colored

covers. Since they are as exclusive as something can possibly be

 

Quote 4:

 

Jack Adler was apparently paid a good wage, for his art skills. Back in the

day, (Golden/Silver) often the only one working on a book with formal

training might be the colorist! In addition, it wasn't unusual for Adler to

get a longer time period working on the cover than the actual penciller and

inker! His role was highly regarded by not only Sol Harrison, Carmine

Infantino, and E. Nelson Bridwell, but also the many artists that worked

under him, including Adams, Wrightson, Simonson, Kaluta, and many others I

have spoken with personally on the subject.

[tth2]

Back in the day, (Golden/Silver) often the only one working on a book with formal training might be the colorist!

Artie Simek didn't have formal training?! Bite your sacreligious tongue!

[Darthdiesel]

Okay.....it is just amazing how difficult it is, when you are passionate for something, to get others to understand.

 

 

Sometimes people just don't agree. I've had a difficult time convincing/explaining to folks on here that price variants are variants. There'll always be a camp with an opposing point of view: ie pressing

 

I'm glad collecting production art makes you happy. As for that "original art" in the ebay auction title, isn't that keyword spamming ?

[rob_react]

For what it's worth, the OA community isn't really too appreciative of these things. I think they're a neat artifact from the production process although I have zero interest in owning one.

[Norrin_Radd]

Again I say.... They're semi-impressive.

[Aman619]

hey. Mush, Im a little slow on the uptake, but are YOU the seller here? Everything you say makes sense from a sales point of view! But in the larger scheme of things, doesnt really add up to much more than a curiousity piece, as I and others keep saying.

[Darthdiesel]

hey. Mush, Im a little slow on the uptake, but are YOU the seller here? Everything you say makes sense from a sales point of view! But in the larger scheme of things, doesnt really add up to much more than a curiousity piece, as I and others keep saying.

 

I think Mushroom, in his dedication to leave the HG chase because of his adamant feelings against pressing and CGC, has liquidated all his slabs and is slowly divesting himself of his hg comics which have the slightest possibility that they were pressed. He's moved on to collecting produciton art and is trying to share with us here and you go and pizz all over the poor guy

 

I think the level of effort with which Mushroom is defending his newfound love and trying to legitimize it in the eyes of forumites here is just a reaction to the surprising (?) level of resistance he is meeting.

[rob_react]

 

I think the level of effort with which Mushroom is defending his newfound love and trying to legitimize it in the eyes of forumites here is just a reaction to the surprising (?) level of resistance he is meeting.

 

I think OA collectors would provide a LOT more resistance... From what I can tell when I read more than "for sale" posts on comicart-l some of them actually get angry about this stuff.

[Darthdiesel]

Angry about the keyword spamming (trying to advertise production art as original art"? Or angry about the very existence of these "intermediate stage of the process" pieces?

[rob_react]

Angry about the keyword spamming (trying to advertise production art as original art"? Or angry about the very existence of these "intermediate stage of the process" pieces?

 

comicart-l sometimes makes this place look happy, so I don't REALLY read it, but I think it's more of the former than the latter, although some people seem to really treat these things with scorn. I don't know if that's a reaction to the spamming or not.

 

The spamming drives me crazy, by the way since I search daily on several artists that come up in these Adler pieces AND I search "pedigree" every day and somewhere in the LENGTHY description for these pieces they call it the Jack Adler Pedigree (or something.)

[matewan1990]

I have only a few color guides and I wish that I'd saved my money and bought original art with that cash.

I do believe the original cover art to this comic would cost way more than $20,000 since Neal Adams charges more than that to reproduce covers.

At one point, I thought I'd never be able to afford a piece of Jack Kirby art. So, I bought the next best thing ... a color guide. Granted, it was a color guide to Hunger Dogs and was all painting on an overlay by Greg Theakston (and it is beautiful). It still did not satisfy me. Eventually, I got up enough cash and trade to get a rather nice Kirby cover, which DID satisfy me totally.

I think it's alright to have an occasional color guide, but don't ever think they're historic. They're a part of the comic creation process and are rather neat, but not historical.

To many of us original art collectors, those are ALMOST cool, but not quite. I squirm when I see someone call them original art and I won't even look at the one color guide I have in my comicartfans.com gallery (www.comicartfans.com; the gallery is under Michael Browning, if anyone wants to look at the art I have in my collection). There's no drawn lines under that paint. It's a xerox copy that's painted, so it's only original art from the standpoint that Adler colored it.

Mike Browning

[Mushroom]

Thanks Darth I do appreciate the understanding.

 

I have collected this stuff for 2 years now and yes I do have some readies available as a result of liquidating my own HG books.

 

As for comments about how to classify what these are, I hate to disagree (and I will argue with anyone) but an original one of a kind water colour is a painting (so it is not keyword spamming, look up the dictionary for the definitions of original and art). It is Art. As a matter of fact it is more art than some of the so called frankenstein paste ups and stat overlay line art that one sees in auctions and on Ebay.

 

Basically what you are saying aman is that the "real" OA collectors refuse to recognise this stuff and use this elitism to raise the importance of what they do....what an absolute joke.

 

Keep your prejudices and narrow mindedness and I will gladly enjoy my hobby. I will not bother any of you anymore with this subject.

[Aman619]

Basically what you are saying aman is that the "real" OA collectors refuse to recognise this stuff and use this elitism to raise the importance of what they do....what an absolute joke.

 

 

I dont recall saying anything like that, merely pointing out what they are, and what they are not, without mentioning OA collectors.

 

Im happy for you that you like them so much. But, in the future, I think you will be sorry you took your money out of comics and put them into these things. And of course its not all about th emoney, but, after all, you are hyping them to SELL them arent you? If they're so great, put em away and let em get REALLY valuable! Maybe the Modern will have a Jack Adler wing by then! (okay, that WAS sarcastic, but you got pissssy first!

[Aman619]

...and, I dont think OA collectors refuse to recognize this stuff to raise their importance... they just view this stuff as means to an end from the PRODUCTION end of comics, whereas what they DO collect happens to be the ACTUAL original art from the covers etc. I think from their approach they are entitled to their lofty viewpoint of this stuff, as you put it.

[rob_react]

Basically what you are saying aman is that the "real" OA collectors refuse to recognise this stuff and use this elitism to raise the importance of what they do....what an absolute joke.

 

Keep your prejudices and narrow mindedness and I will gladly enjoy my hobby. I will not bother any of you anymore with this subject.

 

Aman didn't say anything like that, so don't jump down his throat.

 

I, on the other hand, DID mention the attitude of OA collectors toward this stuff, although I didn't do it with "prejudice," I was merely, for perspective's sake, passing along what I know about other people's attitudes on the subject of these production pieces. I know that attitude doesn't jibe with your own, but don't shoot the messenger (me).

 

If you're in the mood to pick a fight (because you're not going to find one here with me) post something like the above to comicart-l, you'll have all the argument you could ever want

 

Like I said, I personally think they're interesting.

[Mushroom]

Im happy for you that you like them so much. But, in the future, I think you will be sorry you took your money out of comics and put them into these things. And of course its not all about th emoney, but, after all, you are hyping them to SELL them arent you? If they're so great, put em away and let em get REALLY valuable! Maybe the Modern will have a Jack Adler wing by then! (okay, that WAS sarcastic, but you got pissssy first!

 

I don't own that piece or original art.....my collection mostly revolves around the DC horror titles. Is this what it comes down to......you can't be excited about something or bring something to the boards attention without it being motivated by money. As a matter of fact I am collecting this stuff in large runs so that I can donate them intact one day to an institution who might find them of importance.

 

Let me just re-iterate.....I have never sold a piece of original or production art....I am not buying this stuff for monetary reasons.....I won't be selling them.

 

and on that note and in the finest tradition of the drama queen I bid you and the boards a farewell.