2018 Heroes Convention Report 1 1

[YouFoundDonon]

On 6/17/2018 at 5:59 AM, G.A.tor said:

Definitely our best show ever at heroes,  sales wise 

Thanks for the Hulk 181 7.0 Rick Andrew and I were happy to meet you! 

[Larryw7]

Any wall pics?

[G.A.tor]

1 hour ago, YouFoundDonon said:

Thanks for the Hulk 181 7.0 Rick Andrew and I were happy to meet you! 

Pleasure as well. I’m happy I pronounced your name right

[gregreece]

Just in from our most successful Heroes show. This was somewhat surprising considering the dealer line up in the room was easily the most complete line up of major dealers, and therefore the most competitive convention, we've ever set up in. We did notice that while the crowds were smaller, there were more guys flying in to the show and we also had more requests than usual to bring specific books (of which many were purchased).

 

Some comments regarding general questions I read in the thread:

 We brought about 100 new Golden Age books, of which 70-80 sold there (50 were a Jumbo/Jungle lot we wholesaled to another dealer). We also sold both IH 181's to a dealer (who paid retail pricing). Everything else was sold to the public. We also picked up quite a few nice things so all in all, a very good show. Remember, not many dealers are setting up with the intent of selling you something for an easy flip. All dealers miss here and there but you won't be in business long if you're not current on the market. We routinely sell very nice looking books at more than GPA, many others right at GPA, and less desirable copies under GPA. As to substantial new material coming to market, other than the aforementioned Golden Age books, we haven't seen much lately. Other dealers I know have had nice whacks of books coming in. Buys tend to be surprisingly cyclical so when we land 1, we'll probably have 3-4 to process all at once. 

 

Best to all,

 

Greg

[zosocane]

Not sure which convention some earlier posters with gloomy comments attended, but I thought Heroes was really good.  Naturally, there were significantly fewer people Friday.  But Saturday was, from what I saw, incredibly busy and robust.  So many collectors hawking over most (not all) dealer tables on Saturday.  These buyers, generally speaking, were not baby boomers (mid-50s and up) -- they were GenXers and a good number of older Millennials (understandably buying the more affordable lower-cost moderns + Coppers).  Importantly, I saw a good number of tweens/young teens, with their dads or moms, buying books out of long-boxes. The few dealer tables that had less traffic were those dealers whose business model is to over-price, and there was a fair amount of that -- but that's nothing new.  I think the next 10 years (easily) for the comic book convention scene (true comic cons) is on solid ground, with plenty of buyers (demand) funneling in from the super-hero movie phenomenon.  And the supply?  Well, for nice GA and SA books at somewhat affordable prices, it's tough.  Very tough.  And it will only get tougher.  It feels like going to a u-pick farm and almost all of the choice berries are picked.  So you need to get creative, look at the low-hanging fruit and -- above all -- be patient.  Meaning, as a collector, you have to be open-minded to shifting your likes into genres where growth opportunities exist. I's for that reason that I abandoned a want list a couple of years ago.  My want list is in my head and it's, "I want quality at a good deal, whatever it is." As someone posted above, collectors are generally holding their purchases, for fear they will have a tough time replacing the book in this seller's market.  That's what's really driving up the prices, more than new capital coming in (which it is).  I left Heroes thinking that I can't complain with what I have, and that maybe there is no need to, e.g., upgrade a mid-grade early ASM Ditko.

If Heroes is a reliable indicator of the health of the hobby (and I think it is), based on everything I saw, the health of the hobby is very good.  This is without even considering hammer prices on eBay, HA, CC, etc., which continue to remain very strong and set record highs for keys, semi-keys and classic covers.  I echo sentiments on non-high-grade filler copies.  It's for that reason that I focus on wall books.  I'm not going to find quality material in 50% off long-boxes, at least not at a major show like this one -- but that's me.  That said, those are fun and cool books, to be sure.

I think as once-regional conventions like Heroes continue to soar in popularity and become more national in scope, it's only natural that "dabblers" that sell swords and toys and other will buy space -- why would the promoter want to say no to someone willing to pay for the space?  But that will cause a smaller show to appear pick up in its place.  And we are seeing that, as a number of 'grass-roots' shows in small hotels or small venues are cropping up, catering exclusively to comic book collectors.  All of that said, Shelton & Co. have done a fantastic job of sticking to the core mission of Heroes Con when they could have easily sold out.

On an unrelated note -- always remember to inspect the inside of any raw being sold by an unknown dealer for restoration!  I ran into two cases of books being sold by novice dealers that contained undisclosed resto.

That's my Heroes 2018 report.

Edited June 19, 2018 by zosocane

[Foolkiller]

4 hours ago, gregreece said:

Just in from our most successful Heroes show. This was somewhat surprising considering the dealer line up in the room was easily the most complete line up of major dealers, and therefore the most competitive convention, we've ever set up in. We did notice that while the crowds were smaller, there were more guys flying in to the show and we also had more requests than usual to bring specific books (of which many were purchased).

 

Some comments regarding general questions I read in the thread:

 We brought about 100 new Golden Age books, of which 70-80 sold there (50 were a Jumbo/Jungle lot we wholesaled to another dealer). We also sold both IH 181's to a dealer (who paid retail pricing). Everything else was sold to the public. We also picked up quite a few nice things so all in all, a very good show. Remember, not many dealers are setting up with the intent of selling you something for an easy flip. All dealers miss here and there but you won't be in business long if you're not current on the market. We routinely sell very nice looking books at more than GPA, many others right at GPA, and less desirable copies under GPA. As to substantial new material coming to market, other than the aforementioned Golden Age books, we haven't seen much lately. Other dealers I know have had nice whacks of books coming in. Buys tend to be surprisingly cyclical so when we land 1, we'll probably have 3-4 to process all at once. 

 

Best to all,

 

Greg

This is part of what I was highlighting before... there's a lot of books being sold to the public, and the point of view of many on the boards is that of "weekend warrior" dealer.  Therefore, we're measuring by whether we can find books to flip as easily at shows.  I don't think there's any doubt that you cannot.  I started adjusting to this two years ago so I wouldn't be relying on big shows anymore.  I've never had more buying inventory, better buying prospects and more material.  If you're not succeeding at shows anymore, there are plenty of other places to buy.  I've said this a few times here and I learned this lesson early on, taught by many, better, savvier dealers.  Access is everything.  You can "overpay" to get it, but it will always pay dividends down the road.  

Now... with the being said, those pointing out that the drek is more plentiful than ever before and harder to sell and is in sharp decline are all absolutely correct.  But I've found many stores are selling through that as well... it just has to be priced cheap.  Like the economy, there's a widening gulf between the very high and very low.  

[zosocane]

14 hours ago, 1Cool said:

I heard so many people asking dealers if their pre-codes were 6.0 or better and of course they were not since they would be in slabs and would have sold on ComicLink if they were 7.0 copies. 

x 1,000.  

[blazingbob]

18 minutes ago, zosocane said:

x 1,000.  

-1000.

What?

Why do I need to put a pre-hero in a slab in 7.0 or better and sell it on comiclink?

[zosocane]

1 minute ago, blazingbob said:

-1000.

What?

Why do I need to put a pre-hero in a slab in 7.0 or better and sell it on comiclink?

I think 1Cool's observation that it's generally getting much tougher to find raw 6.5 or better pre-code books out there.  On eBay and at shows.  I agree.

[1Cool]

8 hours ago, zosocane said:

I think 1Cool's observation that it's generally getting much tougher to find raw 6.5 or better pre-code books out there.  On eBay and at shows.  I agree.

Yep - that is my comment.  I heard over and over again people asking about higher grade pre-hero and golden age books (unslabbed of course) and no one had them.  Which makes sense because these books are pretty rare and most (not all Bob) dealers go the route of getting those type of books slabbed.  Can you blame them when a ton go for 3x - 5x GPA when they get put up for auction.

[1Cool]

14 hours ago, gregreece said:

Just in from our most successful Heroes show. This was somewhat surprising considering the dealer line up in the room was easily the most complete line up of major dealers, and therefore the most competitive convention, we've ever set up in. We did notice that while the crowds were smaller, there were more guys flying in to the show and we also had more requests than usual to bring specific books (of which many were purchased).

 

Some comments regarding general questions I read in the thread:

 We brought about 100 new Golden Age books, of which 70-80 sold there (50 were a Jumbo/Jungle lot we wholesaled to another dealer). We also sold both IH 181's to a dealer (who paid retail pricing). Everything else was sold to the public. We also picked up quite a few nice things so all in all, a very good show. Remember, not many dealers are setting up with the intent of selling you something for an easy flip. All dealers miss here and there but you won't be in business long if you're not current on the market. We routinely sell very nice looking books at more than GPA, many others right at GPA, and less desirable copies under GPA. As to substantial new material coming to market, other than the aforementioned Golden Age books, we haven't seen much lately. Other dealers I know have had nice whacks of books coming in. Buys tend to be surprisingly cyclical so when we land 1, we'll probably have 3-4 to process all at once. 

 

Best to all,

 

Greg

Nice to hear that another dealer did very well at the show - love to hear how things are going from the other side of the table.  And from what I am hearing it went very well for everyone who set up.  I can only report about the Con from my vantage point and it was not a Con worth going out of the way for from a flippers stand point.  Sounds like dealers did not need flippers money (several have reported here and to me separately that they left with a ton of cash in their pockets) and they did very well selling to other dealers and to the general public.  It was a very robust room with almost all the major east coast comic dealers who are incredibly knowledgeable about the market and I'd have been shocked if that did not bring in the collectors and buyers.  If you are a big dealer with an extensive collection of Golden Age or key books it must feel like you are printing money right now. 

To add to Foolkiller's point - the deals are definetely out there and I'm not sounding the alarm bell in the slightest.  But the deals at the big Cons like Heroes and Baltimore have been drying up for the last couple years and made justifying going to these Cons very difficult from a "weekend warrior" mentality.  But like I said above - dealers are doing great so why would they need to cater or even care about the flippers in the crowd.

[FlyingDonut]

If you're going to a big show looking for deals on books to flip, you're doing it wrong.

[blazingbob]

First off let me state that I am not picking on anyone I am llsting below,  just making a point

I am generally surprised at the lack of "business model" knowledge by buyers and sellers.  As a seller who is your "market".  As a buyer who are your "sellers". 

For example,  Upgraders or guys who buy to press and upgrade are generally looking for keys or high grade books already graded that if pressed will make them money.  They are normally looking for guys who don't press or have lots of CGC books because there is less risk in graded books then raw.  Every seller misses something,  just gets something in or possibly doesn't know what defects can come out.  You can always tell these buyers since they are lighting up the book,  spin it like a pizza and if they could set up a microscope they would.  As a seller this buyer basically represents a person you are handing money to if they upgrade it.  If this type of buyer wonders why there is less and less material in the room I would ask them how many times do you think sellers want to hand you money?  This type of buyer is heavily dependent on getting first shot.  If you want to be this type of buyer and want first shot bring lots of money and be prepared to not get big discounts.  Remember,  I am not in business to make YOU money.  

The weekend warrior dealer.  I am not exactly sure why this type of buyer doesn't see my side of the story when they are running around a show before it opens buying books for resale that I would.  I paid for a table,  you did not.  When you are running around the show buying books for resale you are looking for sellers that have a lower cost of doing business,  may not know all the hot books or simply don't know how to price.  While in certain parts of the country the cost of living may be cheaper but if the material is not there they sometimes price material very aggressively just because they never get it.  Some dealers feel that the collection they just bought might be their one home run to capitalize financially on.  The other thing I see is the "home run" mentality.  Books aren't bought if it can't be flipped right away.  Either this shows you are under capitalized or you don't have the ability to sell books.  From certain dealers I'm pretty sure if I didn't have the inventory already I could have bought a few booths of really solid make money over the long term inventory.  If you CAN'T see the profit when looking at books you haven't learned your trade yet.    

Dealer to Dealer sales.  As in any business relationships are very important.  If you can't see the business benefit of selling to other dealers I'd question if you can see the Big picture.  Successful dealers do NOT get successful on their own.  If you are fair with others they are FAIR with you.  It is a two way relationship.  They may have something you need for customers.  The most successful relationships are ones that benefit each other.  The other thing to realize is that there are dealers whose business models is to sell to other dealers.  Why deal with drips and drabs when you can sell large chunks of a collection?  If they are successful at finding the books which is the hardest part they leave a small portion of the profit to the retail seller.  Cash flow, cash flow,  cash flow.  You have it,  you get to buy books,  if you don't you get to look at them on the wall waiting for that one guy to buy a book.

Assuming Heroes is a snapshot of the Comic hobby.  First off let me state that the mindset of a lot of Heroes Dealers is cash.  Nowhere else in the country or internationally have I experienced this.  I have seen large transactions turned down because the dealer did not have cash.  Turned down.  And you wonder why you are a small dealer?

I also agree with Brian,  I have bought a few collections this year.  Just bought a very nice high grade collection that isn't up on the website yet.  Won't be unveiled at a convention because frankly when I unveiled a collection at C2E2 it didn't do what I expected.  I don't get dealer frenzy buying.  I don't get people fighting over the books.  And why is that?  Because they assume I picked all the good stuff to get graded,  I am not perceived to have a dealer to dealer business model or that I priced it where they can't make money.  

Edited June 20, 2018 by blazingbob

[ygogolak]

38 minutes ago, FlyingDonut said:

If you're going to a big show looking for deals on books to flip, you're doing it wrong.

I think many would agree that  you don't try to buy one book to flip. What I have seen more is the lack of negotiation from dealers when buying in multiples. Nobody wants to be the one who missed out on selling a book that may be worth more than they are aware. Dealers are in defensive mode.

At Indy there was a dealer with a wall of books set in increments. Can't remember all, but the top were $50 each. I asked if he could do $90 for two. He said no. I said here are your books back. That was not all I had, there were some others I had set aside as well. But that right there told me there was no negotiating.

[IntoAnother]

This was my first year attending the show and it was and wasn’t quite what I expected. I primarily focused on acquiring signatures which for the most part went very well because the majority of creators were very accessible, unlike many other shows with all the bells and whistles. 

Personally the buying aspect didn’t quite go as well as I anticipated it to. I have a list of copper and modern age indie keys I’m always keeping an eye out for and unfortunately little was to be found. I know they are not the most common or sought after books but with a show this size I was somewhat dissapointed the majority of books on my list were not available in any grade. Although I wasn’t looking to purchase a first print TMNT #1 it was a bit surspring with the amount of high caliber dealers in the room that I didn’t come across a single copy. I’m not sure if that’s the norm for the show or not to not offer many copper or modern indies but if that is your primary focus this may not be the show for you. 

In regards to the pricing I’d say overall it was pretty much what you’d expect at a show of this size. Sure some dealers had books priced way too high but I walked away very happy with all of my purchases. Maybe I was getting lucky or my timing was right (all of my purchases were made on Sunday) but I had no issue at all when it came to discounts. At one point I was wondering if I was perhaps offering too much because every time I said “Are you open to selling it for x?” I was prompty told yes without hesitation. Yet, like I mentioned above that was on Sunday. 

I would say I prefer Baltimore due to my collecting preferences but it’s an incredible show for most comic book collectors to attend, especially those focused on Marvel and Golden Age books. The amount of creators and books in the room really is incredible, it’s  certainly a show I’m likely to attend again. 

[blazingbob]

On 6/17/2018 at 5:53 PM, VintageComics said:

All good points.

But in general, you don't find that buying books at shows has become tougher over all for various reasons?

The general consensus seems to be that it's; tougher to find stuff over all than it used to be. Whether it's inventory for dealers, keys for customers or just high grade anything.

The exception would be lower grade filler. That stuff is common.

The Metros and the Bob Storms of the world are going to have much more supply due to networking and time in the hobby but the general consensus from the average dealer is that the good stuff has been drying up for some time.

I am not sure this is a general reflection of all.

If I were a $1 book seller is there a lack of material?

How about if I were a low grade seller, do you think that they have a problem acquiring inventory?

Is there a lack of quality golden age collections?  Yes,  they are tougher to find and if they are any good the seller is going to canvas the auction houses first which if you are a dealer have to say are very aggressive competitors.  Ask yourself as a dealer why would the owner of a good golden age collection sell you the books?  Your charming personality?  

Silver age collections - Are there fewer of these coming to the market?  Yes,  again there are more options to sell the books.  

Bronze Age collections - This seller is around my age,  57- 60 and approaching retirement.  I think there will be more not less bronze age collections coming to the market in the next few years.

The new Richism - RID.  Retirement,  Illness,  Death.  More collections will be coming due to these three things.  I am buying a Death collection.  Owner passed away.  

[Murphman13]

15 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

The new Richism - RID.  Retirement,  Illness,  Death.  More collections will be coming due to these three things.  I am buying a Death collection.  Owner passed away.  

I would say RIDUE. The UE is for unexpected expenses. The wife's car is 10 years old and making strange noises, the roof just sprung it's third leak and the a/c unit isn't cooling as well as it should. Plus some dental work is sorely needed. Sometimes those things hit at all once and the Mrs. decides to convince her husband to sell the funny books instead of adding to the home equity line.

[blazingbob]

Unexpected expenses are used more to cancel previously agreed upon deals then selling.

Just had a 5 digit multi book purchase cancelled for unexpected expense.

Edited June 19, 2018 by blazingbob

[1Cool]

I love Bob's list of people he sells to and I have a list of dealers at almost any Con and how I deal with them.

Big National Dealers - I stay far, far away from these guys unless I think I have a hot tip they may have not heard of yet.  I rarely even look at most board members booths since they have their books priced at market value and by the time a Con rolls around they usually have a hot book like Eternals 1 or FF 48 priced accordingly and I'm way too small a fish to throw out a big enough offer for the 20-30% discounts necessary for me to squeak out a buck or two.  I sometimes stop in to gawk at a booth like Gator or Dale but I can not think of one time I didn't make more then a small priced impulse buy from them.  They are not my seller and I'm not their buyer - no hard feelings either direction so I leave them be.

Small local dealers - these guys are hit or miss and I do stop in and check out guys like Nick and Hey Kids Comics since even though I know they are knowledgeable they some times are just looking to clear out books and may have multiples that I do well with and they give a good deal on.  In my area there is a ton of these guys and I know them all and they treat me well since I bring more cash them most local buyers so we do well together.  The problem now is those guys start scrutinizing what books I grab and start picking my brain and nit picking each purchase since they think I'm making a mint off them.  Like I said - I'm always friendly to them since they are my bread and butter.

Knowledgeable Up-to-date Collector - Don't mind these guys and always check out their booths but i usually spend more time talking comics then buying books.  They want to dissect each book's grade or talk about a books history and although that is interesting it's keeping me from a possible home run at the next booth so I tend to be nice and avoid them until last the next time.  These guys have a good chance of missing a few minor keys that they have not heard of since it's outside their collecting focus (ie that Alf and the seal cover) but their core collection they tend to over price big time.  They paid $70 for a X-Men 140 from a dealer 5 years ago since they needed it in NM and they won't take less then $75.  I don't see knowledgeable collector back again very often time since they find they do poorly and don't bother going thru the headache again.

Out of Touch Old Dealer or Selling Off Collection Collector - Everyone loves these guys and there is always a ton of dealers grabbing books during set up.  They have books priced at 10 year ago prices or maybe what they paid for it 5 years ago.  They may even have a 5 year old guide and price stuff by that and they get picked clean of almost all keys before you know it.  If you see a mass of people around a booth early during set up it's either a new high grade collection coming to market or a new guy getting eaten alive.  Those guys of course leave very happy with a stack of cash so I don't feel badly for them but they of course don't come back because they are one and done.

$1 or $2 blow out dealers - These guys are the best!  You can never have enough of these guys at a Con.  I'm not talking about the 90s drek guys who sell books for a $1.  I'm talking about guys who get whole collections in and it's their business model is to skim off the upper 10% of the keys and blow out the rest at bulk prices.  Great way to grab books like Moon Knight 1 or a New Mutant 1 for $2.  There was a great selection of these guys at Motor City and Baltimore last year and Heroes was lacking these guys.  Heck - even C2E2 last year had a couple of these guys with pretty nice stuff.  Rare to see them at a Wizard show since the booth fees are so high. 

 

[revat]

27 minutes ago, 1Cool said:

I love Bob's list of people he sells to and I have a list of dealers at almost any Con and how I deal with them.

Big National Dealers - I stay far, far away from these guys unless I think I have a hot tip they may have not heard of yet.  I rarely even look at most board members booths since they have their books priced at market value and by the time a Con rolls around they usually have a hot book like Eternals 1 or FF 48 priced accordingly and I'm way too small a fish to throw out a big enough offer for the 20-30% discounts necessary for me to squeak out a buck or two.  I sometimes stop in to gawk at a booth like Gator or Dale but I can not think of one time I didn't make more then a small priced impulse buy from them.  They are not my seller and I'm not their buyer - no hard feelings either direction so I leave them be.

Small local dealers - these guys are hit or miss and I do stop in and check out guys like Nick and Hey Kids Comics since even though I know they are knowledgeable they some times are just looking to clear out books and may have multiples that I do well with and they give a good deal on.  In my area there is a ton of these guys and I know them all and they treat me well since I bring more cash them most local buyers so we do well together.  The problem now is those guys start scrutinizing what books I grab and start picking my brain and nit picking each purchase since they think I'm making a mint off them.  Like I said - I'm always friendly to them since they are my bread and butter.

Knowledgeable Up-to-date Collector - Don't mind these guys and always check out their booths but i usually spend more time talking comics then buying books.  They want to dissect each book's grade or talk about a books history and although that is interesting it's keeping me from a possible home run at the next booth so I tend to be nice and avoid them until last the next time.  These guys have a good chance of missing a few minor keys that they have not heard of since it's outside their collecting focus (ie that Alf and the seal cover) but their core collection they tend to over price big time.  They paid $70 for a X-Men 140 from a dealer 5 years ago since they needed it in NM and they won't take less then $75.  I don't see knowledgeable collector back again very often time since they find they do poorly and don't bother going thru the headache again.

Out of Touch Old Dealer or Selling Off Collection Collector - Everyone loves these guys and there is always a ton of dealers grabbing books during set up.  They have books priced at 10 year ago prices or maybe what they paid for it 5 years ago.  They may even have a 5 year old guide and price stuff by that and they get picked clean of almost all keys before you know it.  If you see a mass of people around a booth early during set up it's either a new high grade collection coming to market or a new guy getting eaten alive.  Those guys of course leave very happy with a stack of cash so I don't feel badly for them but they of course don't come back because they are one and done.

$1 or $2 blow out dealers - These guys are the best!  You can never have enough of these guys at a Con.  I'm not talking about the 90s drek guys who sell books for a $1.  I'm talking about guys who get whole collections in and it's their business model is to skim off the upper 10% of the keys and blow out the rest at bulk prices.  Great way to grab books like Moon Knight 1 or a New Mutant 1 for $2.  There was a great selection of these guys at Motor City and Baltimore last year and Heroes was lacking these guys.  Heck - even C2E2 last year had a couple of these guys with pretty nice stuff.  Rare to see them at a Wizard show since the booth fees are so high. 

 

I like this list, and this is largely how I see it, though I think I like small local dealers a bit more than the $1 or $2 blow out people.  The small local dealers usually don't have quite as much stuff or its organized oddly, so their booths aren't as crowded or as picked over, which I value. 

Pro tip for smaller, local dealer:  Get all the books you want, take out the cash (exact change), and bring the whole lot up to their wife/girlfriend (if they're in the booth and its convenient), especially if its late in the con and make your OFFER in CASH.  Or at minimum make your offer loud enough for the wife/gf to hear.  Say 'CASH' loudly, whatever the number.  Negotiate from there as needed, but its harder for them to say no when you're waving cash in their face.

If you're really serious, keep different denomination bills in each pocket and when negotiating, you just say "I only have $5, $10, $20, $50, $100 more" whatever and pull out that exact amount of cash.

This works even better at yard sales.