Received my first Media Mail package with notice of misuse and postage due 1 1

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

So the USPS website where that expressley say it's prohibited is incorrect?

I left my DMM in my other pants.

Phew. I thought you were just happy to see me.

[F For Fake]

That check list/fact sheet is interesting. As a rule of thumb, I'd always gone by what my local postal workers had told me, which is that comics couldn't go media because they contain advertising. Therefore, graphic novels/trades were fair game for media. At least that was my interpretation, and was how I'd operated for years. Interesting to see that the distinction is not solely due to advertising, but also because the books are primarily made up of pictures. Odd. My standard has always been to ship comics first class if they'll make it under the weight cut-off, or priority if they won't, but I've been shipping trades as media mail for 20+ years now (I think it was "Bound Printed Matter" before it was Media Mail, does that sound right?) Never had a package inspected or returned in thousands of shipments, but I thought I was doing the right thing anyway. Never intended to cheat the system.

[justafan]

11 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Phew. I thought you were just happy to see me.

Often wondered how BIG that DMM really is and if anyone can just request a hard copy.  Probably just send it in PDF form nowadays.

This whole debate is moot.  That guideline document references the DMM as an official interpretation of the spirit of the intent of the DMM Media Mail requirements and IS what the PO clerks are instructed to use and go by when referencing whether an item IS or ISN'T qualified for Media Mail.  For all I know, they don't actually have access to an actual copy of the DMM on hand or are too lazy to look it up since those guidelines are "official" USPS Standard Operating Procedures and what they are likely trained to follow.  RMA, you're point and argument is valid in that those interpretation guidelines may not be in the DMM.  However, good luck trying to argue that point with a USPS gov employee.  I liken these guidelines to kind of like how an official company's policies on returns may state under what conditions a return may be authorized but for those grey areas, the customer support has a set of guidelines that they follow that reference back to an official policy.  They may not be set in stone but they are what the employees will follow and supervisors will default to when push comes to shove.  Depending on the mood or disposition of the employee (or USPS clerk) you may be able to convince them otherwise or to cut you a break. 

However, the ONLY way a definitive stance, one way or the other, will actually ever make it into the USPS DMM would be if someone brought a legal suit against the USPS challenging them on the qualification of comics as acceptable for Media Mail forcing them to add it in.  The risk here is if the courts do rule against you (as apparently they may have with "Old Magazines" customer support ruling PS-091-Age of documents is irrelevant) is that it will get written into the DMM once and for all removing all doubt about Media Mail comic book qualifications. 

So why argue and why worry about a 1% (in my experience) inspection rate?  People who use it will continue to use it and those who don't won't. The 2 recommendations I have is that as a seller you at least give the buyer an option to pay more for First Class or Priority if you're going to offer MM.  And if you accept MM, as a buyer you must accept the risk.  However, since this involves ebay and buyers have more leverage, as a seller if you want to use MM that maybe you try to pack the comic in a way that will be both cumbersome for an employee to inspect (i.e. require removing multiple points of access before getting to the books) or make it look like an actual book and also making it easy for the books to be reinserted to the packaging if removed.  Not sure what kind of combination of packaging would work to solve those 2 mutually exclusive ideas (comic T-mailers?) but probably easier to just offer/pay for First class or priority shipping.  Maybe that idea someone had on here of using a cookbook as both the protector and obfuscatory implement would work.

oh and 1 more thing. I have recently found it very easy to remove comic T-mailers from USPS priority mail Legal cardboard envelopes and reseal without leaving much of a sign of tampering.  If you simply tug at the right or left edge flaps they come off easier than the main top flap.  So much so that it leaves minimal damage and a reapplication of glue could reseal it without sign of tampering.  I would recommend that if you use legal sized cardboard USPS mailers please apply packing tape or some kind of tamper seal to the right and left sides covering the flaps ensuring that someone wouldn't try to steal the contents or try to return a package as unopened.

[Tony D]

2 hours ago, F For Fake said:

That check list/fact sheet is interesting. As a rule of thumb, I'd always gone by what my local postal workers had told me, which is that comics couldn't go media because they contain advertising. Therefore, graphic novels/trades were fair game for media. At least that was my interpretation, and was how I'd operated for years. Interesting to see that the distinction is not solely due to advertising, but also because the books are primarily made up of pictures. Odd. My standard has always been to ship comics first class if they'll make it under the weight cut-off, or priority if they won't, but I've been shipping trades as media mail for 20+ years now (I think it was "Bound Printed Matter" before it was Media Mail, does that sound right?) Never had a package inspected or returned in thousands of shipments, but I thought I was doing the right thing anyway. Never intended to cheat the system.

I have read many paperback books which contained an ad for other books from the publisher. Do these not qualify for media mail?

If the ad is from the publisher, is it alright because it did not generate money for the publisher? If that is the case, then Mad magazine did not accept paid advertisements. Does that exempt them?

The ads in old comics are no longer valid. Why should a non valid ad disqualify an old comic book? 

Just trying to show the absurdity of postal regulations in my own Devil's Advocate way.

[the blob]

On ‎6‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 12:10 PM, blazingbob said:

I guess my parents raised me right.  When you were warned not to do something because there are rules I generally followed them.

Seems others in order to save a few bucks feel it is ok to send a comic book which is not media mail.   If they get caught they feign ignorance and pay but continue to do it anyway.

 

No real point doing this for 2 comics. The envelope is a dead give away and doesn't look "media mailish"..sending it in a box so that it seems like it might be books....

 

On ‎6‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 9:32 PM, James J Johnson said:

But aside from the technicalities of specific mail services, for us. media mail should be the last delivery mode we want out condition sensitive collectibles to be sent by. Here is a list of books that were damaged, sent to me from sellers using media mail, which is always subject to rifling by USPS personnel::

All raw:

1) X-Men 3: about Fine: Jammed back into the comic bag/board, the back cover and 6 or 7 pages folded up like origami, and torn at the spine.

2) Fantastic Four 87, about NM: Looked like it was removed from the bag/board/mylar and vigorously clenched in a fist before being put back into the housing.

3) Amazing Spider-man 100, about VF: Aggressively thumbed through to put a tear on the right edge of the cover and 4 or 5 pages, and to pop the staples through the cover

The pictures of the books matched the appearance pre-mailing, in all cases, of course without the damage from media mail rifling.

If I were going to sell a raw comic, I would never use the service full well knowing that there's a chance that an extra set of hands (and not caring hands) might be handling the book and damaging it before my buyer ever gets to see it.

 

Why on earth were these books sent media to save $2? nuts.

Edited June 25, 2018 by the blob

[the blob]

On ‎6‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 5:41 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

You will not find the "pictures" regulation in the DMM. That form pictured above is a personal interpretation of the regulation. You'll find no such language in the Domestic Mail Manual (DMM) and the DMM is the only document which carries any regulatory weight with the United States Postal Service.

Until and if the DMM addresses the issue, all such "bulletins", even if from the Postmaster him or herself, carry absolutely no regulatory weight.

Notice the contradiction and interpretation: "books consisting wholly of reading matter." Whoever made that interpreted "reading matter" as written matter, text...like what you're reading right now...but the regulation itself doesn't define what "reading matter" is, and you can "read" comic books, can you not?

And....notice what it says for comics: "predominantly pictures." 

So?

What are movies...?

Do you read much watching a movie...?

Not unless it's in a foreign language and subtitled.

But DVDs containing movies are perfectly allowed.

And, while this is certainly out on a limb, written language is nothing more than pictorial symbols that represent sounds and concepts...

Oops. I inserted a picture. Guess this post wouldn't qualify...

Again, it's just more bureaucratic interference and interpretation, meant to control and restrict. It's nonsense.

Sounds like a fantastic class action lawsuit. Not sure what kind of immunity the USPS has, but I am surprised someone hasn't pushed it.

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, the blob said:

No real point doing this for 2 comics. The envelope is a dead give away and doesn't look "media mailish"..sending it in a box so that it seems like it might be books....

 

Why on earth were these books sent media to save $2? nuts.

Gordon Gecko was wrong. Greed isn't always good. Sometimes it's pennywise but dollar foolish.

[bababooey]

4 hours ago, justafan said:

Often wondered how BIG that DMM really is and if anyone can just request a hard copy.  Probably just send it in PDF form nowadays.

<snip>

However, the ONLY way a definitive stance, one way or the other, will actually ever make it into the USPS DMM would be if someone brought a legal suit against the USPS challenging them on the qualification of comics as acceptable for Media Mail forcing them to add it in.  The risk here is if the courts do rule against you (as apparently they may have with "Old Magazines" customer support ruling PS-091-Age of documents is irrelevant) is that it will get written into the DMM once and for all removing all doubt about Media Mail comic book qualifications. <snip>

https://pe.usps.com/text/csr/PS-047.htm  this link is clearer than the 'age' guidance which is really an interpretive application. 

The RMA argument is based on the current effectiveness of stale ads but the term "advertising" relates to how and why that advertisement page was placed in the publication, sold or unsold by the publisher.  

[RockMyAmadeus]

9 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

Gordon Gecko was wrong. Greed isn't always good. Sometimes it's pennywise but dollar foolish.

Oliver Stone is an idiot, lacking even a fundamental understanding of how capitalism works, so his mouthpiece, "Gordon Gecko", spouts all kinds of nonsense that has no bearing on economic reality. Capitalism has nothing to do with greed. That's the propaganda of the Marxo-socialist, who doesn't like having to earn his keep, and wants the social power structure to work in his favor, to force others to give him things for free.

Capitalism is nothing more than the free exchange of goods and services, by willing participants on both sides of the transaction.

You give me the fruit of your labor....your wealth, usually in the form of money...in return, you get something that makes your life better/easier/more enjoyable.

Capitalism has done more to lift more people out of poverty than any other system designed by man, throughout the entirety of human history. And it has nothing to do with greed. The greedy are the Marxo-socialists mentioned above, but good luck trying to explain that to a Marxo-socialist.

[shadroch]

Thank glad we have the world's smartest man to clear things up for us unedgeumucated folks.

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, shadroch said:

Thank glad we have the world's smartest man to clear things up for us unedgeumucated folks.

I'm glad you're here, too. 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

That is Fake News..........

(because you never know around here).

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

That is Fake News..........

(because you never know around here).

It's Fake News that shadroch is the world's smartest man...?

Pffft.

Poppycock and twaddlesauce, my good man. Twaddlesauce, I say! We are in the presence of a Greatness of which mortal men can merely dream.

[James J Johnson]

17 minutes ago, shadroch said:

Thank glad we have the world's smartest man to clear things up for us unedgeumucated folks.

Brainiac would be shocked and awed, as are we. Are there enough baskets? Alas. Will they be big enough to gather and contain his unlimited pearls of wisdom? Us swine, with our muted mental faculties, can only ponder.

[shadroch]

Buy sheep, sell deer.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, James J Johnson said:

23 minutes ago, shadroch said:

Thank glad we have the world's smartest man to clear things up for us unedgeumucated folks.

Brainiac would be shocked and awed, as are we. Are there enough baskets? Alas. Will they be big enough to gather and contain his unlimited pearls of wisdom? Us swine, with our muted mental faculties, can only ponder.

Alas, alas! To have the candles of our intellects held against the brightness of the sun, they disappear as a drop of water in the sea. Who are we, mere men, to bask in such Glory?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

5 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

It's Fake News that shadroch is the world's smartest man...?

Pffft.

Poppycock and twaddlesauce, my good man. Twaddlesauce, I say! We are in the presence of a Greatness of which mortal men can merely dream.

 "I too, Brother, forded the the Fields of mire to Immortality..."

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Alas, alas! To have the candles of our intellects held against the brightness of the sun, they disappear as a drop of water in the sea. Who are we, mere men, to bask in such Glory?

Gladius.....

 

[James J Johnson]

7 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Alas, alas! To have the candles of our intellects held against the brightness of the sun, they disappear as a drop of water in the sea. Who are we, mere men, to bask in such Glory?

Well one thing's for sure. Neither Khusraw, Emma Lazarus, Walt Whitman, nor Brainiac can hold one of those candles to you and hope to glimpse their light. You outshine them all! I was right about you. .... (now whispering) I was right!  

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by James J Johnson

[RockMyAmadeus]

"But soft! What light through yonder window breaks...? 'tis the East, and shadroch is the Sun. Arise, fair Sun, and kill the envious Moon, who is already sick and pale with grief that Thou, her servant, art far more fair than She!"